Is Islam protected by the Constitution?

Ploughboy said:

Terrorism is part of the faith.


Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.1, Book 2, Chapter 26, Hadith No. 36,

"(26) CHAPTER. Al-Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is part of the faith.
36.Narrated Abu Hurairah: The Prophet said, "Allah assigns for a person who participates in (holy battles) in Allah's Cause and nothing causes him to do so except belief in Allah and in His Messengers, that he will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in battle as a martyr)" The Prophet added: "Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any Sariya (an army-unit) going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His Cause."

Comment: "Al-Jihad (Holy Fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of it's pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior. (His Word - La ilaha illallah - none has a right to be worshipped but Allah), and His Religion Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanishes. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries escape from his duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfil this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite."

Click to expand...

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:26-27)

Quoted from the Bible.

Islam is a women's rights violation.

Al-Muwatta' (The Approved), Vol.2, Book 41, hadith 11-12,

11- Malik narrated that he knew that 'Uthman bin Affan brought a woman who had given birth after six months and he ordered that she be stoned. Then 'Ali bin Abu Talib (RAA) said to him: She is not to be stoned as Allah says in His Holy Book, "Their carrying and weaning is thirty months," and says, "Mothers suckle their children for two full years for whoever wishes to complete the suckling." Therefore, pregnancy may last for six months and she ought not to be stoned. Then 'Uthman bin Affan asked about her and knew that she had already been stoned.
(....) 12- Malik narrated that he asked Ibn Shihab about the one who committed sodomy? Ibn Shihab said: He has to be stoned (to death), whether he is married or not."
======================================================================================
Female circumcision is practiced by muslims. Its done so that the female won't enjoy sex.

Al-Adab Al-Mufrad of Imam Bukhari, Chapter 596, Hadith 1245,

"Chapter 596: Female Circumcision
1245. (ATH 339) Umm al-Muhajir said: "I was captured with some girls from Byzantium. 'Uthman offered Islam to us but only myself and one other girl accepted Islam. 'Uthman said, 'Go and circumcise them and purify them.' "
======================================================================================
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.1, Chapter 12, hadith No. 2658,

"(12) CHAPTER. The witness of women.

And the Statement of Allah: "...And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women..." (V.2:282)."

2658. Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.7, Book 67, Hadith No.5198,

Narrated `Imran: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women."
=====================================================================================
Muslims are so obsessed with sex they even blow themselves up for free sex slaves in Islamic Paradise!

Al Hadis, Vol.4, Page 171, Hadith No.34,

"Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said: There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buy or sale, but figure; of men and women. When a man will desire a beauty, he will have intercourse with her." -(Tirmizi, (Rare)
=====================================================================================
In Islam, it is lawful to rape a non-muslim woman and take her as a rape toy, even if her husband is still alive!

Sunan Abu Dawud, Vol.2, Chapter 43/44, Hadith 2155,

"Chapter 43/44. Regarding Intercourse With Captives

2155. Abu Sa'eed Al-Khudri narrated that the Messenger of Allah sent an expedition to Awtas on the Day of Hunain, and they met the enemy, fought them, and won the battle. They captured some slaves, but some of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah felt uncomfortable in having relations with them because of their pagan husbands. At this, Allah revealed: "And chaste, free women, except for those whom your right hand possesses..." meaning that they are allowed for you after their waiting periods have finished." (Sahih)
=====================================================================================
Child molesting legal.

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.7, Book 67, Chapter 60, Hadith 5158,

"(60) CHAPTER. Whoever consummated his marriage with a lady of nine years of age.

5158. Narrated 'Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)."


Liberalism is supposed to be about civil rights and yet Islam is a HUGE civil rights violation and liberals ignore it.

Cisero said:

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:26-27)

Quoted from the Bible.

Click to expand...

Another desperate radical atheist trying to defend Islam using Islamic arguments. Epic fail. You shouldn't trust muslim information on the Bible. Now here is the entire context which is about the second coming of Christ.

Luke 19:11-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Parable of the Ten Minas
11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13 Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16 The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19 And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20 Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24 And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26 ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

In the Bible
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19:11-27&version=ESV

It must sucking being an atheist and defending false arguments for the rest of your natural life only to accomplish nothing in this life and find eternal condemnation in the next life. But, without lying, what do atheists have?

Jihad through emigration was Muhammad's preferred approach to conquering nations. He ordered his followers to emigrate for jihad.

Sunan An-Nasa'i, Vol.4, Book 25, Chapter 2, Hadith 3099,

"Chapter 2. Stern Warning Against Forsaking Jihad

3099. It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Prophet said, "Whoever dies without having fought or having thought of fighting, he dies on one of the branches of hypocrisy ." (Sahih)
=============================================================================================
Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.3, Book 29, Chapter 2, hadith 1871,

"(2) CHAPTER. Superiority of Al-Medina. And that it expells (evil, vicious) persons.

1871. Narrated Abu Hurairah: Allah's Messenger said, "I was ordered to migrate to a town which will swallow (conquer) other towns and is called Yathrib and that is Al-Medina, and it turns out (bad) persons as a furnace removes the impurities of iron."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.3, hadith 1875

"Narrated Sufyan bin Abu Zuhair: I heard Allah's Messenger saying, "Yemen will be conquered and some people will migrate (from Al-Madina) and will urge their families, and those who will obey them to migrate (to Yemem), although Al-Madina will be better for them; if they but knew. Sham will also be conquered and some people will migrate (from Al-Madina) and will urge their families and those who will obey them to migrate (to Sham), although Al-Madina will be better for them; if they but knew. Iraq will be conquered and some people will migrate (from Al-Madina) and will urge their families and those who will obey them to migrate (to Iraq), although Al-Madina will be better for them; if they but knew."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.4, Book 56, Hadith No.2783,

"Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Messenger said, "There is no Hijra (i.e., emigration) (from Makkah to Al-Madina) after the Conquest (of Makkah), but Jihad and good intention remain; and if you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for Jihad, go forth immediately."

Ploughboy said:

Another desperate radical atheist trying to defend Islam using Islamic arguments. Epic fail. You shouldn't trust muslim information on the Bible. Now here is the entire context which is about the second coming of Christ.

Luke 19:11-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Parable of the Ten Minas
11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13 Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16 The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19 And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20 Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24 And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26 ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

In the Bible
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19:11-27&version=ESV

It must sucking being an atheist and defending false arguments for the rest of your natural life only to accomplish nothing in this life and find eternal condemnation in the next life. But, without lying, what do atheists have?

Click to expand...

Wowowowo, chill out man. I'm, by far, not a radical atheist. I was merely pointing out that the Bible also had some violent passages.
Of course, regarding the passage I cited, I did not realize it was part of a parabole. I was wrong, my apologies.

What about 1 Samuel 15:3 ?
"This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

Also, doesn't 1 Peter 2:18 allow slavery ? Isn't slavery, now, unconstitutional ?
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

I think a lot of Muslims, like Christians, do not interpret all passages of their holy text literally. There is room for interpretation. Some texts are simply ignored or not practiced. Don't you think ?

From Ibn Ishaq "The life of Muhammad" (The Seerah)

1461 "When Mohammed saw Ummul Fadl she was a crawling baby and he said, "If she grows up and I am still alive, I will marry her." At this time he was about 55."

Muhammad lusted after a crawling baby! Muhammad is considered the perfect human and all muslims must emulate everything he said and did which is why there is the Seerah and Hadith -- so muslims will know what Muhammad said and did. Muhammad was a total pedophile!

Cisero said:

Wowowowo, chill out man. I'm, by far, not a radical atheist. I was merely pointing out that the Bible also had some violent passages.
Of course, regarding the passage I cited, I did not realize it was part of a parabole. I was wrong, my apologies.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. Just know that a parable is a story told with a deeper meaning. The parable is to be accepted as literal truth without taking the figurative nature of the story absolutely literally. The Bible does use lots of figurative forms of speech, much is poetic in nature but all is to be understood and accepted as literal truth without being overly rigid about the figurative language being used. The big problem today is that people are reading the figurative expressions and taking them absolutely literally here in the 21st century English speaking world.

Cisero said:

What about 1 Samuel 15:3 ?
"This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

Click to expand...

God commanded Israel to wipe them out. It was a command only in Israel. There is no command anywhere on the OT or NT to wipe out all unbelievers. But if you go to the first page of this topic you will see commands in the Qur'an to wipe out all disbelievers on earth until there are none left.

Cisero said:

Also, doesn't 1 Peter 2:18 allow slavery ? Isn't slavery, now, unconstitutional ?
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

Click to expand...

Was Peter supposed to grab his sword and charge at the entire Roman Empire just to abolish slavery? His mission was not to change Rome. He knew the Spirit of God in His believers would do all that in time. There were converts who were slaves and converts who were slave masters. He gave each side guidelines to follow. Elsewhere in the NT the Apostles very clearly apposed slavery. But they lived in a world where slavery was part of the norm and thus they taught the Gospel to both slaves and slave masters.

Cisero said:

I think a lot of Muslims, like Christians, do not interpret all passages of their holy text literally. There is room for interpretation. Some texts are simply ignored or not practiced. Don't you think ?

Click to expand...

Actually the Qur'an is already interpreted for you. I have three classical tafsirs: Tafsir Al-Qurturbi, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, and Tafsir Al-Jalalayn. All three of these tafsirs interpret the Qur'an and not just any muslim is allowed to interpret the Qur'an.

Re: Cutting for sign

Ploughboy said:

You wouldn't except information if I showed you. I have already posted ample information which proves muslims are commanded to fight unbelievers until there is no more disbelief. That should be all the evidence anyone with a clear thinking mind needs. You want a 1400 year history lesson in Islam in one single post? I guess that's your way of saying you don't want to know the truth. And this is how you liberals are gonna lose the next election. No party in the US can be pro-Islam and win another election after what has been taking place in Europe. And your lying words and cover-ups only manage to fool your own people. The clear thinking people in America have had enough of the lies.

Click to expand...

None of my Muslim friends are fighting me.

Ploughboy said:

From Ibn Ishaq "The life of Muhammad" (The Seerah)

1461 "When Mohammed saw Ummul Fadl she was a crawling baby and he said, "If she grows up and I am still alive, I will marry her." At this time he was about 55."

Muhammad lusted after a crawling baby! Muhammad is considered the perfect human and all muslims must emulate everything he said and did which is why there is the Seerah and Hadith -- so muslims will know what Muhammad said and did. Muhammad was a total pedophile!

Click to expand...

He would have made a good Catholic priest.

Cisero said:

Wowowowo, chill out man. I'm, by far, not a radical atheist. I was merely pointing out that the Bible also had some violent passages.
Of course, regarding the passage I cited, I did not realize it was part of a parabole. I was wrong, my apologies.

What about 1 Samuel 15:3 ?
"This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

Also, doesn't 1 Peter 2:18 allow slavery ? Isn't slavery, now, unconstitutional ?
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

I think a lot of Muslims, like Christians, do not interpret all passages of their holy text literally. There is room for interpretation. Some texts are simply ignored or not practiced. Don't you think ?

Click to expand...

He has stated that every Muslim is a serial killer. That information came as a surprise to my Muslim friends. He's a raging Islamophobe with no knowledge of the reality of the situation.

Re: Cutting for sign

Ploughboy said:

You wouldn't except information if I showed you. I have already posted ample information which proves muslims are commanded to fight unbelievers until there is no more disbelief. That should be all the evidence anyone with a clear thinking mind needs. You want a 1400 year history lesson in Islam in one single post? I guess that's your way of saying you don't want to know the truth. And this is how you liberals are gonna lose the next election. No party in the US can be pro-Islam and win another election after what has been taking place in Europe. And your lying words and cover-ups only manage to fool your own people. The clear thinking people in America have had enough of the lies.

Click to expand...

No, all I'm looking for are the sources for your claims about religious based genocide. The information you've posted is an analysis of what the Koran & related have to say - but I say Islam is more a matter of religious practice than of religious doctrine. So I'm interested in that practice. I suppose I'll just have to look into the question myself, then.

VanceMack said:

There is at least foundation regarding Islam and their treatment of non Muslims. Your use of Christianity in this example is irrelevant and goofy.

As to the motivation...you would have to presuppose there is written code that says they mistreat foreigners for greed or simply out of a lack of regard for them as human beings. So I can no more offer proof of their motivation as you can...which is why I havent. Could easily be both...but does disregarding non Muslims...people you view as less than...in the name of financial motivation somehow make it MORE justifiable to you?

You are making silly arguments tilting at windmills.

Click to expand...

What's goofy is making the claim that it's a faith that's driving this maltreatment of immigrant workers, which is why I make an equally goofy comparison. If you're going to guess at what motivates people to treat others badly and blame religion, then it can apply to many religions. So what do you attribute the maltreatment of people here to?

Re: Cutting for sign

zyzygy said:

None of my Muslim friends are fighting me.

Click to expand...

Neither are mine. Maybe they're just waiting for the right time?

A first approximation

Originally Posted by Ploughboy
…

Pakistan used to be something else before it was invaded. These 54 Islamic states involving the mass genocide of 120-million non-muslim Africans, 60 million Christians, 80-million Hindus, and 10-million Buddhist. The Jews were lucky as they suffered on the the loss of thousands and not millions--…

southwest88 said:

So again, Where & when did these slaughters take place? Do you have a cite you can put up, or a link for the information?

Click to expand...

Yah. Here's a source where the numbers match up to the quote: https://madworldnews.com/islam-270-million-death-toll/, which quotes https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/, which sources the estimates. For example:

"Tears of Jihad

"Mar 3 2008 | by Bill Warner

"These figures are a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad.
Africa

"Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.
"120 million Africans"

Political Islam is part of CSPI
Center for the Study of Political Islam (CSPI) is an educational organization dedicated to enlightening the general public about the doctrine of political Islam based on the works of Dr. Bill Warner. (from their website)

Warner has an alarmist view of political Islam - & puts out an amazing amount of appearances, videos, articles, books & etc.

With sources identified, we can look @ the data. What I've seen before of Warner's work, however, doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Cisero said:

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:26-27)

Quoted from the Bible.

Click to expand...

Do you have even the first clue as to what you are quoting?

VanceMack said:

Do you have even the first clue as to what you are quoting?

Click to expand...

Yes, now that Ploughboy quoted the whole passage. I've quoted that specific passage out of context.

Ploughboy said:

The topic of this discussion is whether or not Islam is protected by the Constitution.

Muslims do not like our way of life and come here to change our way of life into their way of life. They do not respect our laws and the Qur'an and Sunnah does not teach muslims to respect the laws of the kafir. They come here to murder us which is why this topic should lead to some very interesting discussion.

I will quote from the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Tafsir (the interpretation of the Qur'an) to make my case that Islam is sedition to the Constitution.

Click to expand...

From my perspective, we have a First Amendment and State equivalents. We don't have to take our Representatives to Government, seriously about Morals once they enter public Office; only politics and the law.

Arguing with a religious zealot is as useful as arguing with a babbling Jesus freak on a subway platform. You really aren't going to make any headway.

Re: Islam runs on practice, not on theology

Ploughboy said:

Islam is the most authoritarian belief system on earth. Muslims who live in Islamic countries must obey Islam or die. These documents I have posted are not just any documents of Islam. They all embody the entire belief system all muslims must follow. Now those muslims you mentioned that don't read the Qur'an go to their Imams on and offline to inquire about their beliefs. You are right in saying that most muslims don't read the Qur'an. But their Imams do and thus they provide the brainwashing necessary to keep them deceived. I know this because I debate muslims in the Christian-muslim debate group I'm in. It is true that they do not know the Qur'an well. They merely parrot what their Imams tell them to say. But, as I said before, their Imams know the Qur'an in the same manner that I know the Qur'an. The books I have in my library are the same books the Imams have in their libraries. Once you understand Islam its not hard to follow after that.
Now muslims living in countries like Britain read both English and Arabic. The books of Islam that I have you can copy-paste all my references and locate them in all Islamic bookstores in western nations. Though overall its the Islamic clerics that preach the hate and their hearers are those that blindly follow after the words they hear.



It makes no different if we close the borders or not. These illegal Mexicans don't join the service so the high birth rate among them only caters to Mexico.
Islam poses perhaps the greatest threat to the future of western nations. Granted, Islam is not the only threat. Liberals who follow after socialism and Islam are probably worse than the 9-11 hijackers because they are allowing for more 9-11s. Islam is also the largest military in the world as Islam is a militant death cult. I do not agree with how you say most all muslims are peaceful. I have not seen that. But even if we go by liberal statistics we still have an army larger than the entire population of the United States. What would happen if Europe fell to Islam? I think that is the question Americans need to answer to themselves now before we become too weak to defend ourselves.

Click to expand...

I have lived among Muslims, worked with Muslims and I have Muslim friends. None of them have ever tried to kill me. You know nothing about Europe. You speak as if it was one country.

notquiteright said:

Well to be a BIT more honest about Islam, it also recognizes 'people of the Book' the Sons of Abraham as not infidels.

Click to expand...

To a BIT more honest about Islam, it also does NOT recognize the 'people of the Book' as not infidels. Specifically, the following verses make it quite clear:

5:19 - In blasphemy indeed are those that say God is Christ, the son of Mary.
5:44 - .....Jews, men who will listen to any lie.
5:54 - O ye who believe, take not Jews and Christians for friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he who turns to them is of them. God guideth not a people unjust.
5:68 - If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, we should have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.
5:75 - They do blaspheme who say God is Christ the son of Mary.
5:76 - They do blaspheme who say God in one of three in a trinity.
5:85 - Stongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans.

In apparent contradiction to the above, is one of the cherry-pickers favorites, 5:72. It says, "Those who believe (Muslims), those who follow the Jewish scriptures, Sabians and Christians, any who believe in God the the last day, and work righteousness, on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve." The catch is that doing any of the above negates any good will. For example, a Christian who doesn't ascribe a son to God is going to be OK. The spectacular illogic given here is that you'll be OK if you're A Christian who doesn't hold Christian beliefs.

Note: The Arabic root word translated to "blasphemy" is "kafar".

Re: Islam runs on practice, not on theology

zyzygy said:

I have lived among Muslims, worked with Muslims and I have Muslim friends. None of them have ever tried to kill me. You know nothing about Europe. You speak as if it was one country.

Click to expand...

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what the Qur'an and hadiths teach. They are two different topics. I lived in Egypt for 7 years, and only twice did I experience a situation in which an Egyptian clearly wanted to do me harm for the crime of being an infidel.

Cisero said:

Yes, now that Ploughboy quoted the whole passage. I've quoted that specific passage out of context.

Click to expand...

It is very rare I run into someone online who can admit to mistakes. If everyone had your intellectual integrity these discussion forums would produce fruitful results.

stevecanuck said:

To a BIT more honest about Islam, it also does NOT recognize the 'people of the Book' as not infidels. Specifically, the following verses make it quite clear:

5:19 - In blasphemy indeed are those that say God is Christ, the son of Mary.
5:44 - .....Jews, men who will listen to any lie.
5:54 - O ye who believe, take not Jews and Christians for friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he who turns to them is of them. God guideth not a people unjust.
5:68 - If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, we should have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.
5:75 - They do blaspheme who say God is Christ the son of Mary.
5:76 - They do blaspheme who say God in one of three in a trinity.
5:85 - Stongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans.

In apparent contradiction to the above, is one of the cherry-pickers favorites, 5:72. It says, "Those who believe (Muslims), those who follow the Jewish scriptures, Sabians and Christians, any who believe in God the the last day, and work righteousness, on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve." The catch is that doing any of the above negates any good will. For example, a Christian who doesn't ascribe a son to God is going to be OK. The spectacular illogic given here is that you'll be OK if you're A Christian who doesn't hold Christian beliefs.

Note: The Arabic root word translated to "blasphemy" is "kafar".

Click to expand...

Cherry picking is fun, please note I didn't pick 5:72, Ploughman did...

One can find contradictory verses in the Bible as well. A look at history much closer to the early days of Islam shows there was no war on Christianity and this was a time when the various sects of Christianity were at war with each other. While the pattern of Holy men declaring God or Allah was on their side the 'noble'men saw land, plunder and fame as the prime motivator.

When Islam conquered the Holy lands there was no purge of Jews and Christians- unlike when according to the Bible the Jews murdered everyone living in the 'promised land'. While Jews and Christians were treated as second class citizens they were not denied their religious practices.

You'll not find me claiming any religion is without sin, contradictions and those who would twist and contrive to see whatever they want in the passages from holy writings...

but Islam wasn't founded on killing everyone who didn't submit to Allah... eace

Liberals cherry picking Qur'an verses is funny because they don't know anything about abrogation. Here are just a few abrogated verses liberals cherry pick.

Noble Qur'an 2:106,

"Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?"

Noble Qur'an 50:29: "The sentence that comes from Me cannot be changed, and I am not unjust to the slaves."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noble Qur'an 2:62,

"Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve*."

*footnote: "(V.2:62) This Verse (and Verse 5:69), mentioned in the Qur'an should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbas (Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol.1, Page 323) that the provision of this Verse was abrogated by the Verse 3:85: "And whosoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter, he will be one of the losers." [i.e. after the coming of Prophet Muhammad on earth, no other religion except Islam, will be accepted from anyone]."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noble Qur'an 2:109,

"Many of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even, after the truth (that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His Command*. Verily, Allah is Able to do all things."

*footnote: "(V.2:109) The provision of this verse has been abrogated by the (V.9:29). (Tafsir At-Tabari)"

Noble Qur'an 9:29,

"Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noble Qur'an 5:69,

"Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah, in His Messenger Muhammad, and all that was revealed to him from Allah), and those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, --- whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." *

*footnote: "(V.5:69) This verse (V.5:69) and (Verse 2:62) should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn 'Abbas (Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol.1, Page 323) that the provision of this Verse was abrogated by the (V.3:85). And after the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, no other religion except Islam will be accepted from anyone."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noble Qur'an 15:85,

"And We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them except with truth, and the Hour is surely, coming, so overlook (O Muhammad), their faults with gracious forgiveness. [This was before the ordainment of Jihad---holy fighting in Allah's cause]."

Tafsir al-Jalalayn (Aisha Bewley translation):

"We did not create the heavens and earth and everything between them, except with truth. The Hour is certainly coming -- the time when everyone will be repaid for their actions cannot be avoided. So, Muhammad, turn away from your people graciously and do not be grieved by them. This was abrogated by the Ayat of the Sword."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Noble Qur'an 43:89,

"So turn away from them (O Muhammad), and say: Salam (peace)! But they will come to know.* "

*Footnote: "(V.43:89) The provision of this Verse was abrogated by the revelation of the Verse of fighting against them (V.9:5)"

notquiteright said:

but Islam wasn't founded on killing everyone who didn't submit to Allah... eace

Click to expand...

The wars of the Jews were for tiny Israel. Islam is a "war against all" which means all nations.


Noble Qur'an 2:193, Madinah Period

"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).* But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

*footnote: "(V.2:193)
(A) Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Messenger said, "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people till they testify that La illallah wa Anna Muhammmad-ur-Rasul Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah), and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives, and properties from me except for Islamic laws, and their reckoning (accounts) will be with (done by) Allah." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 1, Hadith No.24).
================================================== ===================
Tafsir Al-Qurtubi,

"Fight them until there is no more fitna and the deen belongs to Allah alone.
This is a command to fight every idolater in every place according to those who say that it abrogates the previous ayats. According to those who say that it does not abrogate other ayats, it means: fight those about whom Allah says, "if they fight you". The former is the more likely meaning. It is an unqualified command to fight without any precondition of hostilities being initiated by the unbelievers. The evidence for that is in the words of Allah, "and the din belongs to Allah alone." The Prophet said, " I was commanded to fight people until they say, 'There is no god but Allah.' The ayat and hadith both indicate that the reason for fighting is disbelief because Allah says, "until there is no more fitna," meaning disbelief in this case. So the goal is to abolish disbelief and that is clear.
Ibn 'Abbas, Qatada, ar-Rabi', as-Suddi and others said that fitna here means shirk and the subsequent injury to the believers caused by it. The root of fitna is testing and trial, derived from the term for testing silver when it is put in the fire to separate the impurities from the pure metal.

If they cease, there should be no enmity towards any but wrongdoers.
If they stop and become Muslim or submit by paying jizya in the case of the people of the Book. Otherwise they should be fought and they are wrongdoers and only transgress against themselves. What is done to the wrongdoers is called enmity since it is the repayment of enmity. Wrongdoing and injustice involve enmity and repayment of enmity is also called enmity. The wrongdoers are either those who initiate fighting or those who remain entrenched in disbelief and fitna."

Tafsir Ibn Kathir,

"{Fitnah} meaning, disbelief and worshipping of others with Allah. {and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).} It refers to the fact that the Religion of Allah (Islam) must be prevalent over other religions. {But if they cease,} meaning, you are stop fighting them the moment they stop fighting the believers, and thereto Islam they turned; for whoever fights them after that, he is then a transgressor; and that there should be no transgression except against the polytheists and wrongdoers. Narrated Nafi' that Ibn 'Umar said that two men there came to him during the dispute of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said: "People are fighting each others. What keeps you from taking part in the fighting despite your being Ibn 'Umar and the Companion of the Prophet (PBUH)?" He said: "What keeps me as such is that Allah prohibited the killing of a Muslim." They said: "Has not Allah said: {And fight them until there is no more Fitnah}?" Ibn 'Umar said: "We fought until there were no more Fitnah and all the religion (worship) was for Allah and you want to fight till the Fitnah befalls and not to let the religion be for Allah."