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Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

Funny how every atheist or non-religious person takes Jefferson's Danbury letter like the Gospel from God, but can't seem to accept the plain text of the 1st Amendment. Where in that amendment is a prohibition on churches mentioned? Please, just quote the part.

I'm opposed to organized religion as I am opposed to an overburdening, all seeing government.

Both can become tyrannical.

Perhaps that was Jefferson's point.
 
I'm opposed to organized religion as I am opposed to an overburdening, all seeing government.

Both can become tyrannical.

Perhaps that was Jefferson's point.

That was exactly Jefferson's point. He had personal experience of churches controlling the political process as evidenced in the case of the Danbury Baptists, which combined with some knowledge of history and the ways in which state churches had controlled or suppressed other groups, caused Jefferson to support a total separation. The Baptists and other faiths in Connecticut were taxed to support the Congregational Church, which was the 'state' church.

Then there's that other guy I quote in my sig.
 
That was exactly Jefferson's point. He had personal experience of churches controlling the political process as evidenced in the case of the Danbury Baptists, which combined with some knowledge of history and the ways in which state churches had controlled or suppressed other groups, caused Jefferson to support a total separation. The Baptists and other faiths in Connecticut were taxed to support the Congregational Church, which was the 'state' church.

Then there's that other guy I quote in my sig.

But, as a Socialist, you're fine with a controlling government?
 
But, as a Socialist, you're fine with a controlling government?

Define "controlling"

My opinion, based on a few years of studying history, says that you wouldn't be able to post on this thing called the internet without a "controlling government". You wouldn't have roads and bridges to drive on without a "controlling government". The list goes on and on - basically neither you nor I would be living as we do today without a "controlling government". Can government control go too far and become an oppressive dictatorship - of course. The problem mankind faces and has always dealt with is determining the balance point between oppression and freedom.

Unlimited freedom results in anarchy, simply because Homo sapiens is a really screwed-up species which always requires some measure of control in order to create societies which are not only productive but peaceful. Ain't happened yet but one can hope.
 
President Trump removed that law that prohibited religions from the political process. One can see some of the impact, already. The swamp is now under moral judgement, which appears to have the most impact on the Democrats. This judgement is starting with sexual misconduct, and will spread from there to other forms of lawlessness and corruption. That was always the real fear of the left. Over the past several decades, they needed a scam that made religion appear to have the army and not just a truthful voice.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Trump spent much of his life practicing sexual misconduct and even boasting about it. How can the "swamp" be under moral judgement when the person conservatives put in charge is about as immoral as they come? As for having the "most impact on the democrats" that's about as big a joke as I've heard in a while. And I'm not sure what religious scam you are referring to--perhaps you can enlighten me one of these days. When it comes to sexual misconduct neither side has anything on the other and this nation and religion is slowing going their separate ways. And the law that prohibits religion from the political process is the first amendment. Trump would like to get rid of it but I'm pretty sure it's here to stay...
 
But, as a Socialist, you're fine with a controlling government?

Conservatives are fine with government controlling the bodies of women in order to save all those cute little babies and there is no greater control then when government starts telling you what you can and cannot do with your own body...
 
Define "controlling"

My opinion, based on a few years of studying history, says that you wouldn't be able to post on this thing called the internet without a "controlling government". You wouldn't have roads and bridges to drive on without a "controlling government". The list goes on and on - basically neither you nor I would be living as we do today without a "controlling government". Can government control go too far and become an oppressive dictatorship - of course. The problem mankind faces and has always dealt with is determining the balance point between oppression and freedom.

Unlimited freedom results in anarchy, simply because Homo sapiens is a really screwed-up species which always requires some measure of control in order to create societies which are not only productive but peaceful. Ain't happened yet but one can hope.

You forget the "We the People" part.

The FedGov has become it's own separate entity, no longer concerned about the wishes of those who put them there and pay their salaries.
 
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Conservatives are fine with government controlling the bodies of women in order to save all those cute little babies and there is no greater control then when government starts telling you what you can and cannot do with your own body...

They tell you not to abuse drugs also but, you didn't listen.
 
They tell you not to abuse drugs also but, you didn't listen.

By making abortion illegal it's a bit more than a suggestion and without enforcement making abortion illegal is meaningless. Is that what you conservatives have been fighting for all this time--a meaningless law or did you intend to use government to force women to have children that they don't want?
 
Conservatives are fine with government controlling the bodies of women in order to save all those cute little babies and there is no greater control then when government starts telling you what you can and cannot do with your own body...
If a woman has a 6 month old child that she no longer wishes to care for, does the government have the right to require her to care for that child until such time as someone else is able to care for it? I’m sure you’ll agree they do.

You need to adjust your argument. It is undisputed that the government can require care for another, at least temporarily, so arguing that the government does not have that right is a poor argument. You’ll have to argue either that a fetus is not a separate being, or plead specific circumstances where the duty to care is too burdensome or unjust.
 
When one wishes to use history in support of their personal views, that person is better served when they actually know something about history. The Roman Catholic Church has not had an army since the Fifth Century. The Holy Roman Empire was a separate political entity from its inception and there were often conflicts between the Pope and the Emperor.

Funny that nobody on the right ever suffers from "moral corruption". Why? Because as soon as one of their people is caught acting in an immoral fashion, we will see one of two responses: The first being a "heart-felt" apology for the actions and a public "return to a Christian life". The second one is the "No True Scotsman" - Oh, that guy? He's not really one of us. Please ignore what we said about him last week.

Just which church are you saying is a "trusted referee"? You seem to be one of those who truly believes "Christians are persecuted in America" despite what is actually taking place.

Ending the Johnson Amendment means there will be yet another conduit for dark money to enter the political forum. Always nice when Americans have no idea who is paying for political ads, campaigning and lobbying. :roll:

The topic is why Jefferson included separation of church and state. By the time of Jefferson, the state had all the power. The church does not make laws that binds all the citizens. The church does not have an army to impose things on people. The church can form a moral judgment, but it is not a judge that has the power to send people to jail. The church was the underdog and the state had all the power.

The Pilgrims came to America, to escape religious persecution, by the State controlled government of England. This unequal power balance between the state and the church, is why Jefferson added the separation clause. America would be a place of personal liberty and freedom. This can only occur if power is held in check. Holding weakness in check does not enhance liberties. It can only make the powerful, less accountable.
 
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The topic is why Jefferson included separation of church and state. By the time of Jefferson, the state had all the power. The church does not make laws that binds all the citizens. The church does not have an army to impose things on people. The church can form a moral judgment, but it is not a judge that has the power to send people to jail. The church was the underdog and the state had all the power.

The Pilgrims came to America, to escape religious persecution, by the State controlled government of England. This unequal power balance between the state and the church, is why Jefferson added the separation clause. America would be a place of personal liberty and freedom. This can only occur if power is held in check. Holding weakness in check does not enhance liberties. It can only make the powerful, less accountable.

Another example of historical ignorance. Jefferson included "separation of church and state", not simply because the "state" had all the power but because in several of the new entities which made up the United States were controlled by church hierarchies to the extent that other faiths were required to pay taxes and were often kept from building new churches so that the dominant faith had greater access to the public. Everyone seems to know of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury (CT) Baptists but how many have read the letter from the Danbury Baptists to Jefferson?

The second paragraph of the Danbury Baptists letter to Jefferson.
Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty‐‐that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals‐‐that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions‐‐that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbors; But, sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter together with the law made coincident therewith, were adopted as the basis of our government, at the time of our revolution; and such had been our laws and usages, and such still are; that religion is considered as the first object of legislation; and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the state) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights; and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgements as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore; if those who seek after power and gain under the pretense of government and religion should reproach their fellow men‐‐should reproach their order magistrate, as a enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dare not, assume the prerogatives of Jehovah and make laws to govern the kingdom of Christ.
my emphasis

Yes, that group we call the Pilgrims came to America to escape religious persecution and immediately established themselves as persecutors of those of other faiths. The persecution of the Pilgrims/Puritans was not simply by the government of England but was lead by the Church of England - the State and the Church were one. Even today, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. A position that may be seen as comparable to that of the Pope in the Roman Catholic Church, well it was at one time, not so much today when the position is more ceremonial than governing.
 
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The topic is why Jefferson included separation of church and state. By the time of Jefferson, the state had all the power. The church does not make laws that binds all the citizens. The church does not have an army to impose things on people. The church can form a moral judgment, but it is not a judge that has the power to send people to jail. The church was the underdog and the state had all the power.
Except the head of the Church of England was the King. And in Connecticut, the governor and all members of the legislature were members of the Congregationalist Church, and enacted laws favorable to the Church and supporting Church laws. And in Maryland, the Protestant-controlled government established the Church of England as the official religion and outlawed the Catholic Mass and the sacraments.
When one religion controls the government you can hardly say the religion is the underdog.

The Pilgrims came to America, to escape religious persecution, by the State controlled government of England.
And why were they being persecuted? For not following the Church of England. And they promptly established their religion as the sole acceptable one and persecuted dissent.
This unequal power balance between the state and the church, is why Jefferson added the separation clause. America would be a place of personal liberty and freedom. This can only occur if power is held in check. Holding weakness in check does not enhance liberties. It can only make the powerful, less accountable.
If the majority is of one religion, and uses the government to support that religion and it’s tenets, then how is prohibiting such entanglement “holding weakness in check?”
 
When one wishes to use history in support of their personal views, that person is better served when they actually know something about history. The Roman Catholic Church has not had an army since the Fifth Century. The Holy Roman Empire was a separate political entity from its inception and there were often conflicts between the Pope and the Emperor.
Ummm the Papal States most certainly had an army until the late 1800’s when a united Italy finally defeated them. Rome was never actually part of the Holy Roman Empire.
 
Ummm the Papal States most certainly had an army until the late 1800’s when a united Italy finally defeated them. Rome was never actually part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Thanks for the correction, it caused me to google "Papal States". Wikipedia has a decent article on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States

I think I missed hearing or reading about the Papal States as they were rather inconsequential when compared to the actions of the Papacy in international affairs. According to the Wiki article, the Papal States were most often controlled by a local nobleman, 'appointed' by the Pope simply because they and their family were already in effective control of the region.

The Papal Army was quite small even during the last 10 years, 1860-`1870, consisting of only three regiments with a bit of artillery and cavalry.
 
By making abortion illegal it's a bit more than a suggestion and without enforcement making abortion illegal is meaningless. Is that what you conservatives have been fighting for all this time--a meaningless law or did you intend to use government to force women to have children that they don't want?

Laws are suppose to help curb the actions of those who insist on leading an irresponsible lifestyle. [just like drugs an alcohol]
 
Laws are suppose to help curb the actions of those who insist on leading an irresponsible lifestyle. [just like drugs an alcohol]

I wonder why crime rates and drug-related deaths have dropped in Portugal following the country's legalisation of most street drugs. Oh yeah, their addiction rates have also declined.
 

Did you bother to read more of the linked article than simply the headline?

"Increases in crime are often a reflection of economic conditions, said Steve Davis, spokesman for the Lakewood Police Department."

"Boulder County District Attorney Stan Garnett said the passage of the felony drunken driving law by Gov. John Hickenlooper in 2015 also triggered an increase in felony crimes that are counted in the annual summary of crime statistics. Boulder County alone has had between 60 and 100 felony drunken driving cases since the law’s passage"

"Greeley Police Chief Jerry Garner said he and many other police chiefs across Colorado have noticed a big increase in the number of transients moving to the state and contributing to a surge in burglaries."

"Denver’s homicides hit a 10-year high in 2016 after domestic violence killings spiked" Most homicides are committed by family or friends of the deceased. Such murders can have multiple causes.

"(Rep. Cole Wist, R-Centennial) Wist said there is a dire need to improve trust between police and the community. He also sees an economic correlation to crime.

“When folks don’t have hope, they’ll turn to other alternatives,” Wist said."



POSTS - 216, 217, 218, and this one - 219, are not related to the topic of this thread.
 
Did you bother to read more of the linked article than simply the headline?

"Increases in crime are often a reflection of economic conditions, said Steve Davis, spokesman for the Lakewood Police Department."

"Boulder County District Attorney Stan Garnett said the passage of the felony drunken driving law by Gov. John Hickenlooper in 2015 also triggered an increase in felony crimes that are counted in the annual summary of crime statistics. Boulder County alone has had between 60 and 100 felony drunken driving cases since the law’s passage"

"Greeley Police Chief Jerry Garner said he and many other police chiefs across Colorado have noticed a big increase in the number of transients moving to the state and contributing to a surge in burglaries."

"Denver’s homicides hit a 10-year high in 2016 after domestic violence killings spiked" Most homicides are committed by family or friends of the deceased. Such murders can have multiple causes.

"(Rep. Cole Wist, R-Centennial) Wist said there is a dire need to improve trust between police and the community. He also sees an economic correlation to crime.

“When folks don’t have hope, they’ll turn to other alternatives,” Wist said."



POSTS - 216, 217, 218, and this one - 219, are not related to the topic of this thread.

One problem is people are moving there hoping to become pot rich and there's no affordable housing or jobs. Homelessness is out of control leading people to commit crimes to survive.
 
Many people like to point out that the words "Separation of Church and State do not appear in the Constitution. Which seems odd to me, because I'm not aware of anyone who claims they do. But, just as "right to a fair trial" is not explicitly stated, but is still a fundamental cornerstone of our legal system, separation of Church and State is a fundamental cornerstone of our Government.

So where did the phrase come from, and what did Jefferson mean?

---chop--

Now, Thomas Jefferson was well known to be opposed to established religions, to the point where his opponents denounced him as an atheist during his Presidential campaign. After he won, the Danbury Baptist Association wrote him a letter congratulating him on his victory and expressing the hope of his positive influence on the states.
From the Danbury Baptist Association:
Our Sentiments are uniformly on the side of Religious Liberty—That Religion is at all times and places a Matter between God and Individuals—That no man aught to suffer in Name, person or effects on account of his religious Opinions—That the legetimate Power of civil Goverment extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbour: But Sir, our constitution of goverment is not specific. Our antient charter, together with the Laws made coincident therewith, were adopted as the Basis of our goverment, At the time of our revolution; and such had been our Laws & usages, & such still are; that religion is consider’d as the first object of Legislation; & therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights: and these favors we receive at the expence of such degrading acknowledgements as are inconsistant with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondred at therefore; if those, who seek after power & gain under the pretence of goverment & Religion should reproach their fellow men—should reproach their chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion Law & good order because he will not, dares not assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make Laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

Sir, we are sensible that the President of the united States, is not the national Legislator, & also sensible that the national goverment cannot destroy the Laws of each State; but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved President, which have had such genial Effect already, like the radiant beams of the Sun, will shine & prevail through all these States and all the world till Hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the Earth


In his ]url=https://jeffersonpapers.princeton.edu/selected-documents/draft-reply-danbury-baptist-association]Draft Reply to the Danbury Baptist Association, Jefferson wrote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; thus building a wall of [eternal] separation between church and state. Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even [those] occasional performances of devotion prescribed indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.

Upon advice from Levi Lincoln, Jefferson removed that last sentence out of fear it would offend people who thought the President should pronounce days of Thanksgiving or prayer, especially those in New England, where such practice was common.

While your mileage may vary, my take is that Jefferson understood the Constitution to create a wall of separation by not allowing the government to use religion, or any religion to use the government, to support its own ends, but rather to keep the two spheres separate.

It's laughable that you take a letter written by President Jefferson as the law of the land, but will argue in the same breath that the Declaration of Independence (penned by the same author) has no legal weight. :lamo
 
It's laughable that you take a letter written by President Jefferson as the law of the land,
I don’t. It was his opinion on the meaning of the First Amendment, which is the law of the land. The Supreme Court has agreed with Jefferson’s view, first citing the “wall of separation in Reynolds v United States 98 U.S.145 (1878) and a few times afterwards.
what legal weight do you think the Declaration has? It doesn’t establish any laws. U.S. law should be interpreted through its principles, but the DoI is not itself a law, anymore than the letter to the Danbury Baptists is.
 
Please cite any decision in which the Supreme Court has interpreted either of the First Amendment's religion clauses to require "simple and complete neutrality" by government. That is more your personal opinion than the law. Laws against bigamy and polygamy do not violate the Free Exercise Clause, for example, even though they are not neutral. Those laws selectively burden all those who believe in plural marriage as a matter of religious faith.

Wrong. There are secular logistic reasons for the state to only allow a person to, at this time, marry only one other person. That may change in the future if we change how marriage works legally.
 
I live in TEX-ASS. The people involved with writing information into history text books actually a few years back voted to remove Jefferson from many of the American History text books. More right wing religion loving cranks.
 
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