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Thread: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So, no, you can’t?
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    So, no, you can’t?
    I did, but what you proved is that you didn't read the link. I realize you hate losing this debate but you have. It's a shame that I have to continue destroying you by spoon feeding you more information.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    Do you have any examples of this? Specifically of the Danbury letter treated as law?
    https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html


    Asking for a second time as my questions seems to have been ignored the first time. Are you an 'originalist', a person who believes the Constitution should only be interpreted as the Founders saw it at the time of its construction?

    I ask because if you read the full text of the judgment in Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1878) you might discover that the justices who ruled in the case also are apparently 'originalists'. They aren't citing Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists as law but as an explanation of how the First Amendment was understood by those men who voted for its inclusion in the Constitution.

    Jefferson as quoted in the decision:
    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions -- I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
    This paragraph is followed by
    Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I did, but what you proved is that you didn't read the link.
    I’ve had that link bookmarked for many years and have read it multiple times. It is NOT an example of anyone claiming the letter is or should be treated as law, nor does it claim any court decisions have been based on it. I have no idea why you would think it is an example of either of those.
    Last edited by pinqy; 12-24-17 at 12:47 PM.
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Well, ol' Tom Jeff did the right thing.

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I did, but what you proved is that you didn't read the link. I realize you hate losing this debate but you have. It's a shame that I have to continue destroying you by spoon feeding you more information.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States
    On your source:
    This article needs additional citations for verification.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Kids who want to end our rights as a stupid reaction to a traumatic event shouldn't be cut any slack. Can you imagine the outcry if some kids who say were victimized by predatory priests came out and demanded laws banning homosexual sex?

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    That's not a law, it's an illustration for the intent of interpretation.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Kids who want to end our rights as a stupid reaction to a traumatic event shouldn't be cut any slack. Can you imagine the outcry if some kids who say were victimized by predatory priests came out and demanded laws banning homosexual sex?

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    So, no, you can’t?
    No; he cannot.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Kids who want to end our rights as a stupid reaction to a traumatic event shouldn't be cut any slack. Can you imagine the outcry if some kids who say were victimized by predatory priests came out and demanded laws banning homosexual sex?

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Funny how every atheist or non-religious person takes Jefferson's Danbury letter like the Gospel from God, but can't seem to accept the plain text of the 1st Amendment. Where in that amendment is a prohibition on churches mentioned? Please, just quote the part.

    Please quote where any part of the US Constitution permits or grants a license to any religion to be involved in government?

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    Re: Why Jefferson wrote "separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by bigred1cav View Post
    Please quote where any part of the US Constitution permits or grants a license to any religion to be involved in government?
    I don't have to until you demonstrate an understanding of the Constitution and its structure worthy of a response. Please explain the 1st Amendment and who is limited by it. Then explain how govt has control over religion. You're also avoiding a direct response to what I said. By trying to make the premise that religion has no rights unless spelled out in the Constitution, you have laid the document on it's head; proving you don't know how it works.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS. #MAGA

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