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Thread: "Separation of Church and State"

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    "Separation of Church and State"

    A common objection of neo-conservatives is that the term "separation of church and state" is not found in the U.S. Constitution. This is true also of "the trinity" in the Bible. The term is not found, but the principle is. Obviously, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" contains this principle, but that is not the whole picture. States like the Commonwealth of Virginia had official state religion of Baptist a long time ago. At the time, this was not a violation of the "establishment clause" as the 1st Amendment was not binding on the states, but it was most certainly a violation of religious freedom as it took Jefferson's "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom" to abolish the state religion.

    The term "separation of church and state" gained prominence in American politics after the Supreme Court decision in Everson v Board of Education. If you read this decision and many others, you will understand that the 1st Amendment applies to the states through the 14th Amendment. Prior to the Civil War, the Bill of Rights was a protection that applied only to the Federal government. Many modern conservatives may find this hard to believe, but a state legislature could actually ban privately owned firearms and it would not be a violation of the 2nd Amendment as it applied only to the Federal government. This is basic "federalism".

    After the civil war the 14th Amendment was "ratified" and was the first amendment which stated "No state shall..." The war and specifically this amendment turned the Constitution on it's head and started not only the vast growth in corporate power and corporate personhood "rights", but made the Bill of Rights applicable to the states which the courts expanded more and more especially throughout the 20th Century. These many court decisions will state the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc...is applicable through the 14th Amendment.

    People can blame "secular liberals" or whoever all they want, but this goes back to the American civil war. My point is not to say which system was better or worse, but to give understanding to those who do not know this.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clapton is God View Post
    A common objection of neo-conservatives is that the term "separation of church and state" is not found in the U.S. Constitution. This is true also of "the trinity" in the Bible. The term is not found, but the principle is. Obviously, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" contains this principle, but that is not the whole picture. States like the Commonwealth of Virginia had official state religion of Baptist a long time ago. At the time, this was not a violation of the "establishment clause" as the 1st Amendment was not binding on the states, but it was most certainly a violation of religious freedom as it took Jefferson's "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom" to abolish the state religion.

    The term "separation of church and state" gained prominence in American politics after the Supreme Court decision in Everson v Board of Education. If you read this decision and many others, you will understand that the 1st Amendment applies to the states through the 14th Amendment. Prior to the Civil War, the Bill of Rights was a protection that applied only to the Federal government. Many modern conservatives may find this hard to believe, but a state legislature could actually ban privately owned firearms and it would not be a violation of the 2nd Amendment as it applied only to the Federal government. This is basic "federalism".

    After the civil war the 14th Amendment was "ratified" and was the first amendment which stated "No state shall..." The war and specifically this amendment turned the Constitution on it's head and started not only the vast growth in corporate power and corporate personhood "rights", but made the Bill of Rights applicable to the states which the courts expanded more and more especially throughout the 20th Century. These many court decisions will state the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc...is applicable through the 14th Amendment.

    People can blame "secular liberals" or whoever all they want, but this goes back to the American civil war. My point is not to say which system was better or worse, but to give understanding to those who do not know this.
    that would depend on the state's own constitution.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    The meaning of "separation of church and state" has evolved over the years. In 1800, Congress approved the use of the Capitol building as a church building and many government officials attended church there up until Lincoln's term. Congress also reviewed and approved a version of the Bible in the 1700s and public school teachers taught scripture to their students. Apparently it didn't mean what many think it means now.


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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    that would depend on the state's own constitution.
    What would?

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    What would?
    the part i bolden in his statement.

    the bill rights did not apply to states until the USSC did it by incorporation.

    before that state governments laws concerning firearms would depend on what the states constitution stated.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    that would depend on the state's own constitution.
    Interesting. But I am not sure which point you want to make.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    the part i bolden in his statement.

    the bill rights did not apply to states until the USSC did it by incorporation.

    before that state governments laws concerning firearms would depend on what the states constitution stated.
    I would have thought that the 14th had cleared that point up.

    PS: That is an issue for the EU that still works on the hypothesis of sovereignty of the members.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I would have thought that the 14th had cleared that point up.

    PS: That is an issue for the EU that still works on the hypothesis of sovereignty of the members.
    today when there is a violation of ones rights concerning firearms, everyone looks to the 2nd amendment, but before incorporation they would have looked at their state's constitution.

    the bill of rights are [restrictive clauses] placed on the federal government to create no law concerning the rights of the people

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    the part i bolden in his statement.

    the bill rights did not apply to states until the USSC did it by incorporation.

    before that state governments laws concerning firearms would depend on what the states constitution stated.
    Which 44 of them have the right to bear arms in them

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Which 44 of them have the right to bear arms in them
    i can only assume here, that the others did not include it because they were written after incorporation.

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