"Separation of Church and State"

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

LittleNipper said:

I at least believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. It is good for training, reproof, correction, doctrine and educating. Where exactly do you get your values and opinion from, if I might ask.

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Reality.

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Somerville said:

"training, reproof, correction" You couldn't possibly mean that young boys who say silly words should be mauled by wild animals, now could you?



That was the prophet Elisha, by the way.

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Bad things happen. And GOD allowed it to happen likely to even teach Elisha a lesson in being careful what you ask for...

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

LittleNipper said:

And you have the audacity to totally ignore GOD's word. 1 Timothy 2:4-6Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

4 God wants everyone to be saved and to fully understand the truth. 5 There is only one God, and there is only one way that people can reach God. That way is through Christ Jesus, who as a man 6 gave himself to pay for everyone to be free. This is the message that was given to us at just the right time.

Can you deny that GOD wishes everyone to be saved? Is that not what GOD wants? How do I know? The Bible tells me so. Read the Bible --- God's will is spelled out time and again. It is those who do not wish to believe in the Bible that are misguided...

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I stand by my earlier post, you just proved my point yet again.

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

LittleNipper said:

Bad things happen. And GOD allowed it to happen likely to even teach Elisha a lesson in being careful what you ask for...

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'Nice' excuse. So you believe slaughtering young boys for being disrespectful is the way to teach some random old guy how to be more circumspect?

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

LittleNipper said:

And you have the audacity to totally ignore GOD's word. 1 Timothy 2:4-6Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

4 God wants everyone to be saved and to fully understand the truth. 5 There is only one God, and there is only one way that people can reach God. That way is through Christ Jesus, who as a man 6 gave himself to pay for everyone to be free. This is the message that was given to us at just the right time.

Can you deny that GOD wishes everyone to be saved? Is that not what GOD wants? How do I know? The Bible tells me so. Read the Bible --- God's will is spelled out time and again. It is those who do not wish to believe in the Bible that are misguided...

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I prefer the New Revised Standard Version, as it is generally seen as the most accurate translation. Reading the NRSV text for 1 Timothy 2 provides an interesting little bit of docetic beliefs that some ancient scribe failed to change.

5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human 6 who gave himself a ransom for all — this was attested at the right time.

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Reading the entirity of 1 Timothy 2, we can find a rather 'interesting' admonition for believers.

8 I desire, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument; 9 also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, 10 but with good works, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

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Red lettering is my work and is not in the NRSV

Without prior beliefs, one could interpret the words "one mediator between God and humankind" as saying the author of 1 Timothy saw Jesus Christ as a lesser being than God, a being of a higher level than ordinary humans but not God himself. This is supported by the follow-up phrase, "himself human"

The second quote I have provided is an example of a major conflict found in present-day Christianity. Bit of a problem trying to enforce it where I live - we have one church and the minister is a woman. Obviously, she is guilty of heresy, at least she is according to this passage.

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Somerville said:

'Nice' excuse. So you believe slaughtering young boys for being disrespectful is the way to teach some random old guy how to be more circumspect?

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I'm sure GOD even used the sinking of the Titanic to teach a lesson to those ready to learn. God allows things to happen. The reason they happen is because we live in a sinful world and that is just the way it is.

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Somerville said:

I prefer the New Revised Standard Version, as it is generally seen as the most accurate translation. Reading the NRSV text for 1 Timothy 2 provides an interesting little bit of docetic beliefs that some ancient scribe failed to change.


Reading the entirity of 1 Timothy 2, we can find a rather 'interesting' admonition for believers.
Red lettering is my work and is not in the NRSV

Without prior beliefs, one could interpret the words "one mediator between God and humankind" as saying the author of 1 Timothy saw Jesus Christ as a lesser being than God, a being of a higher level than ordinary humans but not God himself. This is supported by the follow-up phrase, "himself human"

The second quote I have provided is an example of a major conflict found in present-day Christianity. Bit of a problem trying to enforce it where I live - we have one church and the minister is a woman. Obviously, she is guilty of heresy, at least she is according to this passage.

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Sorry, but one needs to take the entire Bible as one unit and not as bits and pieces. Jesus is not an angel and the Son of God is clearly an indication that Jesus was/is more than a created being. Moreover, Jesus emptied himself and took on the human form to accomplish what total GOD planned from before the creation.

NRSV Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

prometeus said:

That is not the least. As I said and I repeat, you have the audacity to pretend to know what exactly God wants and you have the delusion that you know exactly what God wants and how others have to understand God.

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Do you know what God wants --- and where to you derive your info?

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

American said:

I'm not in college.

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Well then, you wouldn't know...

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

LittleNipper said:

Sorry, but one needs to take the entire Bible as one unit and not as bits and pieces. Jesus is not an angel and the Son of God is clearly an indication that Jesus was/is more than a created being. Moreover, Jesus emptied himself and took on the human form to accomplish what total GOD planned from before the creation.

NRSV Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form

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"Sorry, but one needs to take the entire Bible as one unit and not as bits and pieces." So you follow and obey all of the 613 laws and proscriptions found in Leviticus.

Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I do understand that Christian apologists for the past 2000 years have been offering up 'reasons' that no believer should actually apply these words as they are commonly understood; instead, one must listen to the apologists as they "explain" the true meaning.

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Somerville said:

"Sorry, but one needs to take the entire Bible as one unit and not as bits and pieces." So you follow and obey all of the 613 laws and proscriptions found in Leviticus.

Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I do understand that Christian apologists for the past 2000 years have been offering up 'reasons' that no believer should actually apply these words as they are commonly understood; instead, one must listen to the apologists as they "explain" the true meaning.

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Taking the entire Bible as a whole shows you that the OT law was for the Jews. You should really know more about the topic you're discussing before you try to debate it.

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Somerville said:

I prefer the New Revised Standard Version, as it is generally seen as the most accurate translation. Reading the NRSV text for 1 Timothy 2 provides an interesting little bit of docetic beliefs that some ancient scribe failed to change.


Reading the entirity of 1 Timothy 2, we can find a rather 'interesting' admonition for believers.
Red lettering is my work and is not in the NRSV

Without prior beliefs, one could interpret the words "one mediator between God and humankind" as saying the author of 1 Timothy saw Jesus Christ as a lesser being than God, a being of a higher level than ordinary humans but not God himself. This is supported by the follow-up phrase, "himself human"

The second quote I have provided is an example of a major conflict found in present-day Christianity. Bit of a problem trying to enforce it where I live - we have one church and the minister is a woman. Obviously, she is guilty of heresy, at least she is according to this passage.

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The women speaking issue was an opinion of Paul's and not in any way a direct command from God. It's not a salvation issue in the slightest.

Clapton is God said:

A common objection of neo-conservatives is that the term "separation of church and state" is not found in the U.S. Constitution. This is true also of "the trinity" in the Bible. The term is not found, but the principle is. Obviously, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" contains this principle, but that is not the whole picture. States like the Commonwealth of Virginia had official state religion of Baptist a long time ago. At the time, this was not a violation of the "establishment clause" as the 1st Amendment was not binding on the states, but it was most certainly a violation of religious freedom as it took Jefferson's "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom" to abolish the state religion.

The term "separation of church and state" gained prominence in American politics after the Supreme Court decision in Everson v Board of Education. If you read this decision and many others, you will understand that the 1st Amendment applies to the states through the 14th Amendment. Prior to the Civil War, the Bill of Rights was a protection that applied only to the Federal government. Many modern conservatives may find this hard to believe, but a state legislature could actually ban privately owned firearms and it would not be a violation of the 2nd Amendment as it applied only to the Federal government. This is basic "federalism".

After the civil war the 14th Amendment was "ratified" and was the first amendment which stated "No state shall..." The war and specifically this amendment turned the Constitution on it's head and started not only the vast growth in corporate power and corporate personhood "rights", but made the Bill of Rights applicable to the states which the courts expanded more and more especially throughout the 20th Century. These many court decisions will state the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc...is applicable through the 14th Amendment.

People can blame "secular liberals" or whoever all they want, but this goes back to the American civil war. My point is not to say which system was better or worse, but to give understanding to those who do not know this.

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I believe that's one of the very few powers delegated to the federal government.

The religion thing. The first says "Congress shall make no law", leaving the power with the states.

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Somerville said:

"Sorry, but one needs to take the entire Bible as one unit and not as bits and pieces." So you follow and obey all of the 613 laws and proscriptions found in Leviticus.

Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I do understand that Christian apologists for the past 2000 years have been offering up 'reasons' that no believer should actually apply these words as they are commonly understood; instead, one must listen to the apologists as they "explain" the true meaning.

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Sorry! But the Bible also include this!

Acts 15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

The Meeting at Jerusalem
1 Then some men came to Antioch from Judea and began teaching the non-Jewish believers: “You cannot be saved if you are not circumcised as Moses taught us.” 2 Paul and Barnabas were against this teaching and argued with these men about it. So the group decided to send Paul, Barnabas, and some others to Jerusalem to talk more about this with the apostles and elders.

3 The church helped them get ready to leave on their trip. The men went through the countries of Phoenicia and Samaria, where they told all about how the non-Jewish people had turned to the true God. This made all the believers very happy. 4 When the men arrived in Jerusalem, the apostles, the elders, and the whole church welcomed them. Paul, Barnabas, and the others told about all that God had done with them. 5 Some of the believers in Jerusalem had belonged to the Pharisees. They stood up and said, “The non-Jewish believers must be circumcised. We must tell them to obey the Law of Moses!”

6 Then the apostles and the elders gathered to study this problem. 7 After a long debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “My brothers, I am sure you remember what happened in the early days. God chose me from among you to tell the Good News to those who are not Jewish. It was from me that they heard the Good News and believed. 8 God knows everyone, even their thoughts, and he accepted these non-Jewish people. He showed this to us by giving them the Holy Spirit the same as he did to us. 9 To God, those people are not different from us. When they believed, God made their hearts pure. 10 So now, why are you putting a heavy burden[a] around the necks of the non-Jewish followers of Jesus? Are you trying to make God angry? We and our fathers were not able to carry that burden. 11 No, we believe that we and these people will be saved the same way—by the grace of the Lord Jesus.”

12 Then the whole group became quiet. They listened while Paul and Barnabas told about all the miraculous signs and wonders that God had done through them among the non-Jewish people. 13 When they finished speaking, James said, “My brothers, listen to me. 14 Simon Peter has told us how God showed his love for the non-Jewish people. For the first time, God accepted them and made them his people. 15 The words of the prophets agree with this too:

16 ‘I will return after this.
I will build David’s house again.
It has fallen down.
I will build again the parts of his house that have been pulled down.
I will make his house new.
17 Then the rest of the world will look for the Lord God—
all those of other nations who are my people too.
The Lord said this.
And he is the one who does all these things.’
18 ‘All this has been known from the beginning of time.’
19 “So I think we should not make things hard for those who have turned to God from among the non-Jewish people. 20 Instead, we should send a letter telling them only the things they should not do:

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Don’t eat food that has been given to idols. This makes the food unclean.
Don’t be involved in sexual sin.
Don’t eat meat from animals that have been strangled or any meat that still has the blood in it.
21 They should not do any of these things, because there are still men in every city who teach the Law of Moses. The words of Moses have been read in the synagogue every Sabbath day for many years.”

The Letter to the Non-Jewish Believers
22 The apostles, the elders, and the whole church wanted to send some men with Paul and Barnabas to Antioch. The group decided to choose some of their own men. They chose Judas (also called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were respected by the believers. 23 The group sent the letter with these men. The letter said:

From the apostles and elders, your brothers,

To all the non-Jewish brothers in the city of Antioch and in the countries of Syria and Cilicia.

Dear Brothers:

24 We have heard that some men have come to you from our group. What they said troubled and upset you. But we did not tell them to do this. 25 We have all agreed to choose some men and send them to you. They will be with our dear friends, Barnabas and Paul. 26 Barnabas and Paul have given their lives to serve our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 So we have sent Judas and Silas with them. They will tell you the same things. 28 We agree with the Holy Spirit that you should have no more burdens, except for these necessary things:
29 Don’t eat food that has been given to idols.
Don’t eat meat from animals that have been strangled or any meat that still has the blood in it.
Don’t be involved in sexual sin.
If you stay away from these, you will do well.

We say goodbye now.

30 So Paul, Barnabas, Judas, and Silas left Jerusalem and went to Antioch. There they gathered the group of believers together and gave them the letter. 31 When the believers read it, they were happy. The letter comforted them. 32 Judas and Silas, who were also prophets, said many things to encourage the believers and make them stronger in their faith. 33 After Judas and Silas stayed there for a while, they left. They received a blessing of peace from the believers. Then they went back to those who had sent them. 34 [c]

35 But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch. They and many others taught the believers and told other people the Good News about the Lord.

Paul and Barnabas Separate
36 A few days later, Paul said to Barnabas, “We should go back to all the towns where we told people the message of the Lord. We should visit the believers to see how they are doing.”

37 Barnabas wanted to bring John Mark with them too. 38 But on their first trip John Mark did not continue with them in the work. He had left them at Pamphylia. So Paul did not think it was a good idea to take him this time. 39 Paul and Barnabas had a big argument about this. It was so bad that they separated and went different ways. Barnabas sailed to Cyprus and took Mark with him.

40 Paul chose Silas to go with him. The believers in Antioch put Paul into the Lord’s care and sent him out. 41 Paul and Silas went through the countries of Syria and Cilicia, helping the churches grow stronger.

Re: "Separation of Church and State"



When the separation of church and state leads to children with scraped knees


‘A scraped knee is a scraped knee whether it happens at a Montessori day care or a Lutheran day care.’

• George F. Will
• ·
• 1 day ago

When not furrowing their collective brows about creches and displays of the Ten Commandments here and there, courts often are pondering tangential contacts between the government and religious schools. Courts have held that public money can constitutionally fund the transportation of parochial school pupils to classes — but not on field trips. It can fund nurses at parochial schools — but not guidance counselors. It can fund books — but not maps. Daniel Patrick Moynihan wondered: What about atlases, which are books of maps? On Wednesday, the Supreme Court will consider the constitutional significance of this incontrovertible truth: “A scraped knee is a scraped knee whether it happens at a Montessori day care or a Lutheran day care.”
That assertion is in an agreeably brief amicus brief written by Michael McConnell, a Stanford University law professor specializing in church-state relations. He requires just 13 pages to make mincemeat of Missouri’s contention that a bit of 19th-century bigotry lodged in its constitution requires it to deny shredded tires to Trinity Lutheran Church in Columbia, which runs a preschool. . . .

Josie said:

The meaning of "separation of church and state" has evolved over the years. In 1800, Congress approved the use of the Capitol building as a church building and many government officials attended church there up until Lincoln's term. Congress also reviewed and approved a version of the Bible in the 1700s and public school teachers taught scripture to their students. Apparently it didn't mean what many think it means now.

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and, the founders knew religion was the source of human morality so they protected our free exercise knowing there would be more free exercise and more morality if govt didn't try to exclude some religions in favor of one.

James972 said:

and, the founders knew religion was the source of human morality so they protected our free exercise knowing there would be more free exercise and more morality if govt didn't try to exclude some religions in favor of one.

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The problem in modern America is that some who call themselves Christian do not believe "freedom of religion" applies to any faith but Christianity and Judaism - and not all of them are sure about the Jewish thing.

Somerville said:

The problem in modern America is that some who call themselves Christian do not believe "freedom of religion" applies to any faith but Christianity and Judaism - and not all of them are sure about the Jewish thing.

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I'm sure debt wars drugs poverty etc are far more important problems. maybe you mispoke?

Josie said:

The meaning of "separation of church and state" has evolved over the years. In 1800, Congress approved the use of the Capitol building as a church building and many government officials attended church there up until Lincoln's term. Congress also reviewed and approved a version of the Bible in the 1700s and public school teachers taught scripture to their students. Apparently it didn't mean what many think it means now.

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Uh no; there was a chapel put into the building in 1955.

faithful_servant said:

The concept was from it's inception to keep the gov't out of the Church. It was never to keep the Church out of the gov't. The examples of the Church being an accepted part of our gov't are numerous and widespread across most of the first 150 years of this nation's existence. The idea that the Church is to be excluded from gov't is a recent invention that is not reflective of what the Constitution was clearly stating. The problem that the Revisionists have is that when the Constitution was written, no one thought that anyone whould be so dumb as to have to have this stuff spelled out to them at the level of detail that's needed to day. We can look back at how our nation functioned in cooperation with the Church and see crystal clear evidence that the Church was a strong influence on our gov't and that efforts by the gov't to interfere with the Church were expressly fought against. The Danbury Letters show this with incredible clarity.

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Nope: the idea was to separate the church from government AND legislation.

James972 said:

I'm sure debt wars drugs poverty etc are far more important problems. maybe you mispoke?

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He didn't say debt and wars are less important, all he did was state that there's a problem in American with certain Christians.

Soopairik said:

He didn't say debt and wars are less important, all he did was state that there's a problem in American with certain

Christians.

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no he said "the problem in America"

jet57 said:

Nope: the idea was to separate the church from government AND legislation.

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and to prevent govt from preventing you from your free exercise. It was a way to expand religion

James972 said:

no he said "the problem in America"

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And he also didn't say that was the only problem.