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Thread: "Separation of Church and State"

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    The meaning of "separation of church and state" has evolved over the years. In 1800, Congress approved the use of the Capitol building as a church building and many government officials attended church there up until Lincoln's term. Congress also reviewed and approved a version of the Bible in the 1700s and public school teachers taught scripture to their students. Apparently it didn't mean what many think it means now.
    Interesting, but a distinction that needs mentioning is that in the 1700s and a lot of the 1800s there weren't "public schools" as we have them today. Federal dollars weren't used for classrooms, teachers, etc...

    Why are religious conservatives so "dependent on government" to educate their children and use tax dollars to teach their children the Bible? Why can't "the family" and the church do it?

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    i can only assume here, that the others did not include it because they were written after incorporation.
    Nope all written before

    NY, NJ, MD, MN, IA and CA

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clapton is God View Post
    Interesting, but there are a few distinctions that need mentioning. First, in the 1700s there weren't "public schools" as we have them today. Federal dollars weren't used for classrooms, teachers, etc...

    Why are religious conservatives so "dependent on government" to educate their children and use tax dollars to teach their children the Bible? Why can't "the family" and the church do it?
    Actually there have been tax-funded public schools since the 1600s.


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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    Actually there have been tax-funded public schools since the 1600s.
    That was before Scott Walker came along. LOL!

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Nope all written before

    NY, NJ, MD, MN, IA and CA
    you made me have to read a lot, but you are correct.

    but the constitutions do say, that the people have more rights then what is enumerated

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    today when there is a violation of ones rights concerning firearms, everyone looks to the 2nd amendment, but before incorporation they would have looked at their state's constitution.

    the bill of rights are [restrictive clauses] placed on the federal government to create no law concerning the rights of the people
    That is the way the US developed.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clapton is God View Post
    A common objection of neo-conservatives is that...........
    OP, you narrowed your focus (for this particular discussion) to neoconservatives.
    Did you mean to do that?

    Your foundational argument could well be aimed at traditional conservatives, Republicans in general, non-politically-aligned church goers, theists as a rule, non-denominational undecideds, and even Libertarian agnostics who don't believe in God (but who also don't agree with the average militant/anti-religion/agnostic's views on the separation of church and State).

    Was your choice of the term, 'neoconservatives' purposefully narrow, or did you mean to wholesale sweep all those categories of men and women into that one convenient box?

    Forgive me for opening up a can of worms, as that was not my intent.
    I'm just curious.

    Am I alone in this?

    Am I alone?

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clapton is God View Post
    A common objection of neo-conservatives is that the term "separation of church and state" is not found in the U.S. Constitution. This is true also of "the trinity" in the Bible. The term is not found, but the principle is. Obviously, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" contains this principle, but that is not the whole picture. States like the Commonwealth of Virginia had official state religion of Baptist a long time ago. At the time, this was not a violation of the "establishment clause" as the 1st Amendment was not binding on the states, but it was most certainly a violation of religious freedom as it took Jefferson's "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom" to abolish the state religion.

    The term "separation of church and state" gained prominence in American politics after the Supreme Court decision in Everson v Board of Education. If you read this decision and many others, you will understand that the 1st Amendment applies to the states through the 14th Amendment. Prior to the Civil War, the Bill of Rights was a protection that applied only to the Federal government. Many modern conservatives may find this hard to believe, but a state legislature could actually ban privately owned firearms and it would not be a violation of the 2nd Amendment as it applied only to the Federal government. This is basic "federalism".

    After the civil war the 14th Amendment was "ratified" and was the first amendment which stated "No state shall..." The war and specifically this amendment turned the Constitution on it's head and started not only the vast growth in corporate power and corporate personhood "rights", but made the Bill of Rights applicable to the states which the courts expanded more and more especially throughout the 20th Century. These many court decisions will state the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc...is applicable through the 14th Amendment.

    People can blame "secular liberals" or whoever all they want, but this goes back to the American civil war. My point is not to say which system was better or worse, but to give understanding to those who do not know this.

    The 14th Amendment and then incorporation. This is a situation in which truth meets reality.


    If you delve beyond the thin surface into the ratification of the 14th Amendment you will find that it was not ever even close to being properly, lawfully or constitutionally ratified. So the truth is that it should not really a guiding force in our framework... and if not, then of course the incorporation of the bill of rights to the states loses its major premise.

    The fact that we accept this impostor amendment as lawfully constitutional… that is the reality.
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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    The meaning of "separation of church and state" has evolved over the years. In 1800, Congress approved the use of the Capitol building as a church building and many government officials attended church there up until Lincoln's term. Congress also reviewed and approved a version of the Bible in the 1700s and public school teachers taught scripture to their students. Apparently it didn't mean what many think it means now.
    The whole business comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists.

    https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

    To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

    Gentlemen

    The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

    Th Jefferson
    Jan. 1. 1802.
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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clapton is God View Post
    A common objection of neo-conservatives is that the term "separation of church and state" is not found in the U.S. Constitution. This is true also of "the trinity" in the Bible. The term is not found, but the principle is. Obviously, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" contains this principle, but that is not the whole picture. States like the Commonwealth of Virginia had official state religion of Baptist a long time ago. At the time, this was not a violation of the "establishment clause" as the 1st Amendment was not binding on the states, but it was most certainly a violation of religious freedom as it took Jefferson's "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom" to abolish the state religion.

    The term "separation of church and state" gained prominence in American politics after the Supreme Court decision in Everson v Board of Education. If you read this decision and many others, you will understand that the 1st Amendment applies to the states through the 14th Amendment. Prior to the Civil War, the Bill of Rights was a protection that applied only to the Federal government. Many modern conservatives may find this hard to believe, but a state legislature could actually ban privately owned firearms and it would not be a violation of the 2nd Amendment as it applied only to the Federal government. This is basic "federalism".

    After the civil war the 14th Amendment was "ratified" and was the first amendment which stated "No state shall..." The war and specifically this amendment turned the Constitution on it's head and started not only the vast growth in corporate power and corporate personhood "rights", but made the Bill of Rights applicable to the states which the courts expanded more and more especially throughout the 20th Century. These many court decisions will state the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc...is applicable through the 14th Amendment.

    People can blame "secular liberals" or whoever all they want, but this goes back to the American civil war. My point is not to say which system was better or worse, but to give understanding to those who do not know this.
    Think you might be interested in this bit of History.

    Roger Williams - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com

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