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Atheism is a religion [W:1586,2242]

More power to you. It's your choice to contest unfavourable odds. In that case you have no reason to expect that you will be successful. You are always taking a risk, whatever you do though. No outcome is 100% certain to occur is my point.

True, but some outcomes have an assurety by the mere reason that they are predictable. To take the first step to climb a cliff is stepping into the unknown. Once set upon the task it takes determination and an understanding of what i am doing. One is faith, the other reason.
 
No, nit picking would be me pointing out spelling errors. But pointing out that you are making tautologies tells me you really do not understand the meaning of the word if you have to say it twice.

Nonsense. You seem to have a hard time understanding coordinate adjectives, especially the use of them to express nuances. The adjectives I used were simply to express slightly different aspects of the reasoning in question for those who are not experts on the matter, and were perfectly valid to do so. At worst it shows a little wordiness (I do like my pairs or pairs of coordinating conjunctions) on my part.


So when i ask you how your argument s relevant you reply by pointing out the teapot is not relevant. How does that work?

The teapot is not relevant, as it stands to a critic of theism. This is what I posted above, and it suffices here:

Let's go back to the beginning to remember just what we are debating.

The FSM, like Russell's teapot, is supposed to show that although the FSM cannot be disproved, as there is no evidence for it, we shouldn't believe in it. It , however, ignores that God is not an entity in time and space, in the universe, as is the FSM, the teapots, quarks, or distant nebilae. The knowledge, or one important kind, that is alleged for God is very different from these sorts of entities - it is allegedly discoverable via proofs based on deductions from general observations of the world, like "there is change". Therefore you need to refute these proofs before talking about the FSM.

I already did. Aquinus started from the position that a god exists and he only needed an argument to prove it so. Yet he nor anyone else bothered to show why a god would exist in the first place, he just assumed it to be so.
This doesn't make sense. You say he just assumed God, and yet you also say he gave an argument. That means he still gave an argument, which should be evaluated on its merits, whatever Aquinas' psychology of belief.

No they are really no different at all. They all have the same basic problem in that they assume a god must exist and the work backwards from that to produce premises that will fit a conclusion. Aquinus especially can be dismissed for this.
This is just fallacious. You are assuming that Aquinas' argument can be dismissed because you don't like his means of invention, his finding of premises. That is just a material fallacy - it isn't relevant to the argument. The argument stands or falls on its merits. It doesn't even matter if it is Aquinas' - if we found it was really written by his valet it wouldn't change anything. And, anyway, even if Aquinas' arguments were fallacious wrong, it wouldn't change the soundness of my argument.
 
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Nonsense. You seem to have a hard time understanding coordinate adjectives, especially the use of them to express nuances. The adjectives I used were simply to express slightly different aspects of the reasoning in question for those who are not experts on the matter, and were perfectly valid to do so.
Again not nit picking to point out that when you say the same thing twice you do not really know the word you are trying to use.


The FSM, like Russell's teapot, is supposed to show that although the FSM cannot be disproved, as there is no evidence for it, we shouldn't believe in it. It , however, ignores that God is not an entity in time and space, in the universe, as is the FSM, the teapots, quarks, or distant nebilae. The knowledge, or one important kind, that is alleged for God is very different from these sorts of entities - it is allegedly discoverable via proofs based on deductions from general observations of the world, like "there is change". Therefore you need to refute these proofs before talking about the FSM.

And have already refuted them. Also it is your claim that the fsm is an entity. As it really is nothing more than a concept used to ridicule a belief in god it can also serve as a something only discerned by deduction as well.
This doesn't make sense. You say he just assumed God, and yet you also say he gave an argument. That means he still gave an argument, which should be evaluated on its merits, whatever Aquinas' psychology of belief.
Except that he based his argument on the idea that a god must exist and then fitted his premises to suite that belief. The argument has no merit because it is simply a self serving devise. Your basic circular argument, god must exist because there is change, how do we know things change because god must exist.
This is just fallacious. You are assuming that Aquinas' argument can be dismissed because you don't like his means of invention, his finding of premises. That is just a material fallacy - it isn't relevant to the argument. The argument stands or falls on its merits. It doesn't even matter if it is Aquinas'. Try not to commit gross fallacies. It makes it hard to get to reason properly. And, anyway, even if Aquinas' arguments were fallacious wrong, it wouldn't change the soundness of my argument.

No the only fallacious argument here is yours in assuming you know how i feel by saying i do not like something. Address instead the fact that not one good reason was given by aquinus or anyone else for that matter to first establish a good reason for bringing a god into existence in the first place. Aquinus like any theist starts from the proposition that a god must exist. Then attempts to work out ways of proving it to be so. This is simply self fulfilling prophesying not good reasoning.
 
Again not nit picking to point out that when you say the same thing twice you do not really know the word you are trying to use.

Who says? If someone says, "Yes, yes..." They then must not know what yes means? If they use adjectives to describe slightly different aspects of something, they must not know what those words mean? What utter nonsense.


And have already refuted them. Also it is your claim that the fsm is an entity. As it really is nothing more than a concept used to ridicule a belief in god it can also serve as a something only discerned by deduction as well.

Nowhere did I say it was an actually existing entity. It should be reasonably obvious from context and common sense that I didn't mean that, nor are my words illegitimate for the meaning I was expressing.

Except that he based his argument on the idea that a god must exist and then fitted his premises to suite that belief. The argument has no merit because it is simply a self serving devise. Your basic circular argument, god must exist because there is change, how do we know tings change because god must exist.

This is just gross fallacy, apart from being baseless, unsupported (please forgive me for using coordinating conjunctions to express nuanced meaning again!) assertions. It is a simply a genealogical fallacy - a material fallacy of relevance. His arguments stand or fall on the soundness, not on your psychological and historical speculations.
 
Who says? If someone says, "Yes, yes..." They then must not know what yes means? If they use adjectives to describe slightly different aspects of something, they must not know what those words mean? What utter nonsense.
.

Saying yes, yes is just repeating yourself. Using two different words with the same meaning is a tautology.


Nowhere did I say it was an actually existing entity. It should be reasonably obvious from context and common sense that I didn't mean that, nor are my words illegitimate for the meaning I was expressing.
I did not use the word existing i only used the word you used, entity.


This is just gross fallacy, apart from being baseless, unsupported (please forgive me for using coordinating conjunctions to express nuanced meaning again!) assertions. It is a simply a genealogical fallacy - a material fallacy of relevance. His arguments stand or fall on the soundness, not on your psychological and historical speculations
It is not sound at all as it relies on a premise that cannot be proven to be true. that a god does exist and therefor change can happen. The best you can say about it is that it is valid.
 
Saying yes, yes is just repeating yourself. Using two different words with the same meaning is a tautology.

They were not the subject and predicate of the same proposition, so they weren't technically a tautology. The terms have slightly different meanings, in that they express slightly different aspects of the same thing. It is perfectly legitimate to express oneself in this way, whether or not it is stylistically optimal. If you are going to try to look clever by nitpicking, at least try to choose a proper point.

I did not use the word existing i only used the word you used, entity.
Then your point doesn't even make sense.

It is not sound at all as it relies on a premise that cannot be proven to be true. that a god does exist and therefor change can happen. The best you can say about it is that it is valid.

That is not remotely what Aquinas' first way looks like. It doesn't have God's existence as a premise.
 
Then your point doesn't even make sense.
Do i need to remind you that you also claimed not to use the word existing so does that mean you did not make sense as well?

That is not remotely what Aquinas' first way looks like. It doesn't have God's existence as a premise.

The key passages in the presentation of the first argument run as follows:
“It is certain, and evidence to our senses, that some things are in motion. Now whatever is moved is moved by another. ...If that by which it is moved be itself moved, then this also must needs to be moved by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover, seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are moved by the first mover: as the staff moves only because it is moved by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, moved by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
 
Do i need to remind you that you also claimed not to use the word existing so does that mean you did not make sense as well?
No, because, obviously, we were making different arguments. I was pointing out something about the concept of the FSM, which is separate from it existing in its own right. You seemed to be saying that by calling it an entity I was implying it did exist.

The key passages in the presentation of the first argument run as follows:
“It is certain, and evidence to our senses, that some things are in motion. Now whatever is moved is moved by another. ...If that by which it is moved be itself moved, then this also must needs to be moved by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover, seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are moved by the first mover: as the staff moves only because it is moved by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, moved by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
This is the opposite to what you wrote. Here the existence of God is the conclusion and change the premise.
 
Are you not aware of the traditional proofs of God, as given by, for example, Aquinas or Plotinus and so on? I'm wondering why you'd be quite strident without even a basic familiarity with such material. Peter Kreeft gives a good summary (remember they are just that before you waste everyone's time) of twenty largely traditional proofs:

Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God by Peter Kreeft & Ronald K. Tacelli

Edward Feser has a good roundup on cosmological arguments, including the two varieties mentioned (those like Aquinas' First way, which really on change, and those like the neoplatonic argument based on unity).

Edward Feser: Cosmological argument roundup

I'm aware that some have tried to prove god through words. I don't call those proofs at all. If evidence of god can't be observed directly there is a good reason for that. The simplest explanation is that god is an idea created by man and only exists as an idea. Taking the idea of god literally is a mistake, no matter who has tried to prove otherwise.
 
Whether or not you want to believe the rest of it, the fact remains orphanages did not exist prior to Christians inventing them.

I wonder if torture chambers existed prior to Christianity?
 
True, but some outcomes have an assurety by the mere reason that they are predictable. To take the first step to climb a cliff is stepping into the unknown. Once set upon the task it takes determination and an understanding of what i am doing. One is faith, the other reason.

I agree it would be for me, but I have never done such a thing before. I suppose that's true for any first time event engaged in. However we do have the experience of others.
Even the first people launched above most of Earth's atmosphere on rockets had the history of unmanned space flight to relate to. There was a history of success, along with failures. Probabilities could be computed. The first people launched into space went when they did only at the time a reasonable case could be made that they would succeed.

In the case you describe before you take that first step, I would have no faith. I would be going blind into the unknown, and therefore frankly I wouldn't do it. It would be like sitting on top of the first rocket attempting to ascend above Earth's atmosphere.
 
Let's go back to the beginning to remember just what we are debating.

The FSM, like Russell's teapot, is supposed to show that although the FSM cannot be disproved, as there is no evidence for it, we shouldn't believe in it. It , however, ignores that God is not an entity in time and space, in the universe, as is the FSM, the teapots, quarks, or distant nebilae. The knowledge, or one important kind, that is alleged for God is very different from these sorts of entities - it is allegedly discoverable via proofs based on deductions from general observations of the world, like "there is change". Therefore you need to refute these proofs before talking about the FSM.
There certainly is on laboratory experiments by parapyschologists stretching from Rhine in the 30s until today. There was a lot of fieldwork done between the 1870s and 1939s by the SPR. The authors I mentioned are philosophers who take the evidence seriously, and are often quite legitimately scornful of most sceptics, who don't show much familiarity at all.

What knowledge? First you say there is knowledge, then you say it is allegedly discoverable by proofs....which is it? Then I must "prove" something based on the allegations and alleged proofs?

"there is change" is the consequence of the Second Law of Thermodynamics....Not a proof of god at all.

Also if god does not exist in time and space then how can it interact with time and space and anything contained within?....that makes no sense.

Whether they have been observed to fail is what is in question, so you simply beg the question there. There are several different philosophical understandings of scientific laws, many of which would not rule out paranormal and miraculous phenomena.

You are speaking of scientifically derived knowledge when you discuss the laws of nature. Scientific investigation has not overturned the laws which make up the standard model of physics. Science is not philosophy. At one time there was no difference. Science and philosophy were one and the same. That was many centuries ago.

Science works with empirical evidence. If said god in some way objectively exists we can not know it by assessing objective reality. Deep intellectualism which you offer does nothing to alter the reality that we can not detect anything which may exist "outside" our spacetime. All you have is speculation and irrational arguments. You must have a blind faith that god exists because there is no path to knowledge.
 
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No, because, obviously, we were making different arguments. I was pointing out something about the concept of the FSM, which is separate from it existing in its own right. You seemed to be saying that by calling it an entity I was implying it did exist.
No, i had already stated that the fsm is nothing more than a concept. It does not exist. I was pointing out that there is no difference in the idea of a prime mover and the fsm. Both are discussed as entities.


This is the opposite to what you wrote. Here the existence of God is the conclusion and change the premise.
I had a feeling that you might say that. We are back to your not understanding the language you use.
“It is certain, and evidence to our senses, that some things are in motion. Now whatever is moved is moved by another. ...If that by which it is moved be itself moved, then this also must needs to be moved by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover, seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are moved by the first mover: as the staff moves only because it is moved by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, moved by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.”
Note the two words in bold. "Therefor" signals the conclusion. But the use of the word "and" brings on an additional bit of information, or otherwise called a premise.
 
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Whether or not you want to believe the rest of it, the fact remains orphanages did not exist prior to Christians inventing them.

We can also point to the fact that the creation of orphanages by christian lead to workshops in which children slaved and died or that orphanages were also where unwed mothers had their babies forcefully removed and taken to other orphanages where they were sold for a profit or the babies were startved to death and then secretly buried in pits of mass graves.

We can also point to the fact that orphanages do not require a belief in a god in order to operate so there realy is no argument that such a belief is necessary. We can also point out that to do the harm that was done in christian orphanages actually requires a belief in a god.
 
I agree it would be for me, but I have never done such a thing before. I suppose that's true for any first time event engaged in. However we do have the experience of others.
Even the first people launched above most of Earth's atmosphere on rockets had the history of unmanned space flight to relate to. There was a history of success, along with failures. Probabilities could be computed. The first people launched into space went when they did only at the time a reasonable case could be made that they would succeed.

In the case you describe before you take that first step, I would have no faith. I would be going blind into the unknown, and therefore frankly I wouldn't do it. It would be like sitting on top of the first rocket attempting to ascend above Earth's atmosphere.

But if you did do it that would take faith. However once started on the journey you only have yourself and the cliff. It will be determination that keeps you there, not faith.
 
My knowledge of world history doesn't come from the internet.

Nevertheless, here's one of the few articles I was able to pull up that isn't behind a paywall (most scholarly works aren't just posted on the internet free of charge):

http://msaag.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/11_Schneider_Macey.pdf

The simple fact is that orphanages did NOT exist prior to Christianity; you were wrong. Not only that, but Christianity basically invented (or discovered) the very idea that children are precious.

How Christianity invented children

It's ironic that, in your attempt to sound educated, you uttered this phrase:
Then, you proceeded to demonstrate how uneducated you are on this topic.
Not as much as you. Plato was not a Christian nor is Jewish law or Roman law that directed that orphans be cared for.
 
Not as much as you. Plato was not a Christian nor is Jewish law or Roman law that directed that orphans be cared for.

Your claim was that orphanages existed prior to Christianity. But history shows that they did not; Christians did invent orphanages.

Not only did you not know this, but you were so oblivious that you actually needed links to prove this. Now suddenly you want to claim to know something about this topic. Nice try. The fact remains orphanages do not predate Christianity.
 
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So where were the orphans cared for?

That depends heavily on the culture. But in general, orphans from the upper classes had a good chance of being adopted by another member of the clan. If they came from the lower classes then they probably wouldn't be cared for at all; they would become street urchin or slaves.
 
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But if you did do it that would take faith. However once started on the journey you only have yourself and the cliff. It will be determination that keeps you there, not faith.

I discriminate between to versions of faith. A reasoned faith and a blind faith. When I can not be positive of an outcome but the odds are strongly on my side I can hold a reasoned faith in success. If I have no idea but do it anyway I am functioning blindly. I have no reason to expect success. The latter is a fools game.
 
That depends heavily on the culture. But in general, orphans from the upper classes had a good chance of being adopted by another member of the clan. If they came from the lower classes then they probably wouldn't be cared for at all; they would become street urchin or slaves.

Are you implying that if Christians had not invented orphanages they never would have come to be? Only Christians were capable of the empathy and altruism involved?

Regardless, what does this have to do with atheism?
 
Are you implying that if Christians had not invented orphanages they never would have come to be? Only Christians were capable of the empathy and altruism involved?

No.

I was exposing this as untrue:
prometeus said:
Orphanages existed before Christianity


Russell797 said:
Regardless, what does this have to do with atheism?

Nothing. The person who wrote the above untrue statement was ridiculing someone else for their "uneducated drivel" and used the incorrect fact that Orphanages existed before Christianity (which is untrue) as evidence. This isn't a topic people in general know much about, but I do, so I was just letting everyone know that what this guy just said is factually incorrect. I didn't expect that his reaction would be to deny the facts and try to re-write history, so it went on longer than I expected.
 
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I discriminate between to versions of faith. A reasoned faith and a blind faith. When I can not be positive of an outcome but the odds are strongly on my side I can hold a reasoned faith in success. If I have no idea but do it anyway I am functioning blindly. I have no reason to expect success. The latter is a fools game.

You really should not discriminate. By doing so you pander to the theists who try to argue that their faith has good reasoning behind it. It makes it harder to point out it is a futile bit of reasoning when they can point to others who falsely make the argument for them. As well it is in fact an oxymoron which makes the user of the words reasoned faith look silly just on a case of grammar. You should in fact distinguish between the two.

When I can not be positive of an outcome but can reason that the odds are strongly on my side I can hold to a reason for success.

If I have no idea but do it anyway I am functioning solely on faith.

The latter is a fools game. In that case we should have a game of poker sometime.
 
No.

I was exposing this as untrue:





Nothing. The person who wrote the above untrue statement was ridiculing someone else for their "uneducated drivel" and used the incorrect fact that Orphanages existed before Christianity (which is untrue) as evidence. This isn't a topic people in general know much about, but I do, so I was just letting everyone know that what this guy just said is factually incorrect. I didn't expect that his reaction would be to deny the facts and try to re-write history, so it went on longer than I expected.

No this is a topic you wish to distort in order to push a nonsense religion rather than give any historical perspective. Christian orphanages were a place where children were worked as slaves or sold for profit. It was a place where unwed mothers were abused and their babies often murdered. I find it quite disgusting that you ignore history for your fantasy argument that christians invented orphanages. All they did in reality was create an organised way to exploit the poor.
 
No this is a topic you wish to distort in order to push a nonsense religion rather than give any historical perspective. Christian orphanages were a place where children were worked as slaves or sold for profit. It was a place where unwed mothers were abused and their babies often murdered. I find it quite disgusting that you ignore history for your fantasy argument that christians invented orphanages. All they did in reality was create an organised way to exploit the poor.

Here is a link for those interested in examining the real history and whether soylentgreen's characterization is accurate:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christianity/The-Christian-community-and-the-world#ref301774
 
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