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Atheism is a religion [W:1586,2242]

do you want to be able to make your religion into law?

People do that all the time.

You get married, the agreement in a legal sense is called the law of the contract.
 
What I find particularly bizarre is the attempt of many atheists to try and frame all people, who have some belief or room for doubt, to be either an extreme believer (dogmatic) or the other, as complete non believer.

Well from what I have seen here, atheists want to side step the fact they have beliefs.

Anything that is not a incontrovertible fact, is a belief. Any moral judgments on any level glaringly fall into this category and atheists make as many moral judgments in their daily lives as anyone else, including their 'belief' god does not exist, the mountain of semantics notwithstanding.
 
Sigh. Listed are numerous beliefs of atheists:
belief 1: there is no god(s) - nothing to believe in
belief 2:religion should be stricken from government
belief 3: the universe was randomly created by Mother Nature.
belief 4: man is the only cause of global warming (not sure why this belief is held by a majority of atheists).
maybe because of belief 5: atheists are heavily influenced by secular authority figures?
Maybe you guys aren't the 'lone wolves' you profess to be?

There are more beliefs, but I only needed to list more than one...

More than 1 belief. A system of beliefs. An ideology. Very similar to religion.

Belief 1. Yes.

Belief 2. Nope. That's a person in favor of secular government, which any religious person could be as well.

Belief 3. Mother Nature isn't a thing so no atheist actually believes that. Random isn't actually a thing either in terms of how the universe was created. Spontaneous is a word that could be used, but Random doesn't have anything to do with it. And not all atheists would agree on how the universe was created nor do all atheists care about the origins of the universe.

Belief 4. That has nothing to do with atheism. You can be an atheist and a climate change denier too.

Belief 5. You mean SCIENTISTS?! Smart people who discover things about the world we live in and create things? Why wouldn't anyone revere them? At least anyone who doesn't hold a religion that demands that they ignore obvious truths.

Lets maybe ask the American Atheist Society which is a secular non profit group to define atheism, since I think group should be able to define themselves as a religion if they so choose.

What is Atheism? | American Atheists

"What Is Atheism?

No one asks this question enough.

The reason no one asks this question a lot is because most people have preconceived ideas and notions about what an Atheist is and is not. Where these preconceived ideas come from varies, but they tend to evolve from theistic influences or other sources.

Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God." Some dictionaries even go so far as to define Atheism as "wickedness," "sinfulness," and other derogatory adjectives. Clearly, theistic influence taints dictionaries. People cannot trust these dictionaries to define atheism. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as "there is no God" betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read "there are no gods."

Why should atheists allow theists to define who atheists are? Do other minorities allow the majority to define their character, views, and opinions? No, they do not. So why does everyone expect atheists to lie down and accept the definition placed upon them by the world’s theists? Atheists will define themselves.

Atheism is not a belief system nor is it a religion. While there are some religions that are atheistic (certain sects of Buddhism, for example), that does not mean that atheism is a religion. Two commonly used retorts to the nonsense that atheism is a religion are: 1) If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, and 2) If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. A new one introduced in 2012 by Bill Maher is, "If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."

The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in gods and supernatural beings. Some of the best debates we have ever had have been with fellow atheists. This is because atheists do not have a common belief system, sacred scripture or atheist Pope. This means atheists often disagree on many issues and ideas. Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints."


YOU CAN'T PUT US IN YOUR BOX.
 
That is the difference. The religious create the "God" figure in their lives, maintain it, and support it for the benefit of religious leaders. The atheist do not create such a "God" like meaning, nothing to maintain, let alone support.

and the god figure is the soul and an element of the soul is sum composite of ones beliefs that one uses to govern their daily actions.

I am surprised atheists are so adverse to their 'ism' falling under a religion since it identifies a 'personal' individual religion rather than one dictated by some guru in a robe, be it a priest or state judge
 
Sigh. Listed are numerous beliefs of atheists:
belief 1: there is no god(s) - nothing to believe in
belief 2:religion should be stricken from government
belief 3: the universe was randomly created by Mother Nature.
belief 4: man is the only cause of global warming (not sure why this belief is held by a majority of atheists).
maybe because of belief 5: atheists are heavily influenced by secular authority figures?
Maybe you guys aren't the 'lone wolves' you profess to be?

There are more beliefs, but I only needed to list more than one...

More than 1 belief. A system of beliefs. An ideology. Very similar to religion.

Belief 1. Yes.

Belief 2. Nope. That's a person in favor of secular government, which any religious person could be as well.

Belief 3. Mother Nature isn't a thing so no atheist actually believes that. Random isn't actually a thing either in terms of how the universe was created. Spontaneous is a word that could be used, but Random doesn't have anything to do with it. And not all atheists would agree on how the universe was created nor do all atheists care about the origins of the universe.

Belief 4. That has nothing to do with atheism. You can be an atheist and a climate change denier too.

Belief 5. You mean SCIENTISTS?! Smart people who discover things about the world we live in and create things? Why wouldn't anyone revere them? At least anyone who doesn't hold a religion that demands that they ignore obvious truths.

Lets maybe ask the American Atheist Society which is a secular non profit group to define atheism, since I think group should be able to define themselves as a religion if they so choose.

What is Atheism? | American Atheists

"What Is Atheism?

No one asks this question enough.

The reason no one asks this question a lot is because most people have preconceived ideas and notions about what an Atheist is and is not. Where these preconceived ideas come from varies, but they tend to evolve from theistic influences or other sources.

Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God." Some dictionaries even go so far as to define Atheism as "wickedness," "sinfulness," and other derogatory adjectives. Clearly, theistic influence taints dictionaries. People cannot trust these dictionaries to define atheism. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as "there is no God" betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read "there are no gods."

Why should atheists allow theists to define who atheists are? Do other minorities allow the majority to define their character, views, and opinions? No, they do not. So why does everyone expect atheists to lie down and accept the definition placed upon them by the world’s theists? Atheists will define themselves.

Atheism is not a belief system nor is it a religion. While there are some religions that are atheistic (certain sects of Buddhism, for example), that does not mean that atheism is a religion. Two commonly used retorts to the nonsense that atheism is a religion are: 1) If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, and 2) If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. A new one introduced in 2012 by Bill Maher is, "If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."

The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in gods and supernatural beings. Some of the best debates we have ever had have been with fellow atheists. This is because atheists do not have a common belief system, sacred scripture or atheist Pope. This means atheists often disagree on many issues and ideas. Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints."


YOU CAN'T PUT US IN YOUR BOX.

WOW!!!!

not that is a complete beat down of a post if i have ever seen one!!!
:bravo:

anyway you are right, atheism in general is in fact not a religion or a practice etc etc.
and yes people falsely define atheism (along with many other things in the world) very ignotantly and inaccurately and typically this is done to fit an agenda and facts prove it wrong.
 
Well from what I have seen here, atheists want to side step the fact they have beliefs.

Anything that is not a incontrovertible fact, is a belief. Any moral judgments on any level glaringly fall into this category and atheists make as many moral judgments in their daily lives as anyone else, including their 'belief' god does not exist, the mountain of semantics notwithstanding.

"Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."

What is Atheism? | American Atheists

Please let us atheists define ourselves and stop trying to redefine the english language to make yourself feel better.
 
Well from what I have seen here, atheists want to side step the fact they have beliefs.

Anything that is not a incontrovertible fact, is a belief. Any moral judgments on any level glaringly fall into this category and atheists make as many moral judgments in their daily lives as anyone else, including their 'belief' god does not exist, the mountain of semantics notwithstanding.

making things up wont help your failed and factually proven wrong position but please keep posting these strawmen
 
Sigh. Listed are numerous beliefs of atheists:
belief 1: there is no god(s) - nothing to believe in
belief 2:religion should be stricken from government
belief 3: the universe was randomly created by Mother Nature.
belief 4: man is the only cause of global warming (not sure why this belief is held by a majority of atheists).
maybe because of belief 5: atheists are heavily influenced by secular authority figures?
Maybe you guys aren't the 'lone wolves' you profess to be?

There are more beliefs, but I only needed to list more than one...

More than 1 belief. A system of beliefs. An ideology. Very similar to religion.

Complete claptrap. Atheism applies only to number 1.

Belief 2 is secularism. Many atheists are secularism, but being atheist doesn't make you secularist.

Belief 3 is often implied by the lack of belief in god, but many atheists believe the universe could have been caused by an advanced alien race, or it is a computer simulation.

Belief 4 atheism has zero to do with climate change

Belief 5 football fans are heavily influenced by football players. Chess players are heavily influenced by other chess players. Chefs by other chefs, etc etc etc. Nothing to do with religion.

You might want to look into a little thing called 'correlation does not imply causation' as you fall into that trap 4 separate times in your post.
 
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"Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."

What is Atheism? | American Atheists

Please let us atheists define ourselves and stop trying to redefine the english language to make yourself feel better.

I have already in the first couple pages shown that in fact atheists do have a belief system, when asking an atheist questions, their responses fit the recipe.


what you said are all semantics and can be also stated as: "atheists believe there is no god".

above is identical and exactly same as lack of belief, denial, and disbelief.

You do not need to profess a god to have a belief, so your definition is lacking in accuracy.
 
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Complete claptrap. Atheism applies only to number 1.

he added nothing to believe in which is impossible for any living human that is not a brain dead vegetable to accomplish
 
Anything that is not a incontrovertible fact, is a belief. Any moral judgments on any level glaringly fall into this category and atheists make as many moral judgments in their daily lives as anyone else, including their 'belief' god does not exist, the mountain of semantics notwithstanding.

This, right here, is the biggest problem presented by the religious mindset. It seeks to equate every opinion or conclusion with every other. KJ here is asserting that his ignorance is as good as another's knowledge. An unfounded belief is in no way equal to a reasoned conclusion, even if it is not "incontrovertible", because nothing truly is. The belief that the world is six thousand years old is by no means equal to the knowledge and conclusion that it is four and a half billion years old.

This is why religion poses a threat to modern society and to progress. It seeks to diminish the importance of knowledge and learning. New information should never be subordinate to age old belief. And we should never be so foolish as to think that they are the same.
 
he added nothing to believe in which is impossible for any living human that is not a brain dead vegetable to accomplish

So you're saying his definition of atheism is wrong? Take that up with him, I was pointing out the more obvious flaws in his post, not just semantics.
 
This, right here, is the biggest problem presented by the religious mindset. It seeks to equate every opinion or conclusion with every other. KJ here is asserting that his ignorance is as good as another's knowledge. An unfounded belief is in no way equal to a reasoned conclusion, even if it is not "incontrovertible", because nothing truly is. The belief that the world is six thousand years old is by no means equal to the knowledge and conclusion that it is four and a half billion years old.

This is why religion poses a threat to modern society and to progress. It seeks to diminish the importance of knowledge and learning. New information should never be subordinate to age old belief. And we should never be so foolish as to think that they are the same.

This is philosophical however not religious. Granted it defines religion but then philosophy defines most things in our lives. What you are saying is that people need some guru or priest in a black robe to tell them what their religion should be.

That and your example is comparing science which for the purposes of this I will assume is presumed to be empirical though in reality it may or may not be nothing more than a belief. So you come in as a Scientologist and are essentially claiming that beliefs in anything but 'science' somehow will destroy society. I beg to differ. On the contrary it will empower people to be what they can be not what some state dictator in the name of the legislation forces them to be at the tip of the barrel of a gun.

If not governed by your religion then it will be by someone elses.
 
So you're saying his definition of atheism is wrong? Take that up with him, I was pointing out the more obvious flaws in his post, not just semantics.


I said this is wrong:

nothing to believe in

in fact it is an impossible condition for any conscious human
 
Well from what I have seen here, atheists want to side step the fact they have beliefs.

Anything that is not a incontrovertible fact, is a belief. Any moral judgments on any level glaringly fall into this category and atheists make as many moral judgments in their daily lives as anyone else, including their 'belief' god does not exist, the mountain of semantics notwithstanding.

I really do understand what you are getting at here. I disagree, but I understand. I get that it may seem like a leap of faith in itself to think that there is no God when you are looking at it from the perspective of a religious person who sees God as a potentially real thing with real consequences to choosing to hold onto faith or to not have it, but this is not the case from the perspective of an atheist. I literally never think about the existence of God unless I am asked to by someone else. There is a moment in the beginning when one becomes an atheist, if you are coming from a religious background at least, where you may say to yourself "I believe that there is no God" because you are looking at the question from the perspective of a religious person still, but after being an atheist for a while, the statement becomes "I do not have any belief in gods/supernatural beings". This is a subtle distinction from your perspective, but from mine, it is huge. Perhaps at first there is a moment of "believing" in no God, but this does not last. There is no active belief to being an atheist, whereas there is always an active belief to being religious.

Being an atheist isn't easy. Neither is being a Christian obviously, but being an atheist has unique challenges. We are hard wired, like you say in your original post, to want unity and meaning in life and an atheist chooses to live in a world where there are no easy answers to those questions. Without a God or religion, there really AREN'T answers to those questions. I choose to be an atheist because I am, by my nature, a skeptic. I do my absolute best to not allow any opinions to exist in my head without rational evidence. In the absence of evidence, I have to use my judgement. This is a pervasive part of my personality that led me to a career in science, to be a lifelong learner, to be instinctively curious, which are all good, but also to being an atheist which has strained my relationship with friends and family, vastly limited my potential dating pool, and nearly gotten me fired from jobs (I live in the South where Christianity is as prevalent as sweet tea). The idea of holding no belief over holding a belief that I question or that requires a leap of faith or requires me to ignore things that are real and tangible is integral to my way of life and goes way beyond atheism. This is reason calling my atheism a religion is so offensive to me, because the idea of a religion, especially Western religions, goes against my very nature. Calling atheism a religion discredits the unique challenges of being an atheist and the very real struggles one goes through in life being an atheist in an attempt to avoid the very thing you are trying to redefine atheism as.

Religion, to me, is dogmatism. It is a rigid, structured belief system that is slow to change with the world, society, and new information. I fundamentally reject everything about the mindset that goes along with being religion. When someone comes up with a better, more accurate, more verifiable theory on gravity, for instance, I will accept that theory until it is not the case anymore. Religion can't do that. The Book of Genesis flies in the face of modern science and Christians must choose to reject modern science or change their opinion of the Book of Genesis, for instance to the idea that its just meant to be a fable and shouldn't be taken literally. Christians in this country are STILL trying to prevent evolution from being taught in school despite the fact that it is a proven fact. FACT. Lumping my lack of belief in gods into the same group as this dogmatic defiance to truth is saying my lack of belief is exactly the same as literally everything I fundamentally oppose as a world view.
 
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There is no active belief to being an atheist, whereas there is always an active belief to being religious.

oh yes there is.

being an atheist isnt something that is inherent.

It requires one of the semantics to be true: lack of belief, denial, disbelief, belief there is no god.

No knowledge or never thought about it is completely another story and these people are not atheists.

Its a conscious decision set.
 
Th So you come in as a Scientologist and are essentially claiming that beliefs in anything but 'science' somehow will destroy society. I beg to differ.

1. Do you know what a scientologist is?

2. That is not what he's saying. He's saying being resistant to accept new ideas and change with the times is a detriment to society.
 
oh yes there is.

being an atheist isnt something that is inherent.

It requires one of the semantics to be true: lack of belief, denial, disbelief, belief there is no god.

No knowledge or never thought about it is completely another story and these people are not atheists.

Its a conscious decision set.

Actually, yes, being an "atheist" is inherent in that one would never hold a belief in a God if one lived in a place where God was never spoken of or created. Being an atheist is only even a thing because someone else believes in God and asks others to do the same. The condition of being an atheist is dependent upon the belief of others.

Someone else believing in the Tooth Fairy does not make your lack of belief in the tooth fairy a belief.
 
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I have already in the first couple pages shown that in fact atheists do have a belief system, when asking an atheist questions, their responses fit the recipe.


what you said are all semantics and can be also stated as: "atheists believe there is no god".

above is identical and exactly same as lack of belief, denial, and disbelief.

You do not need to profess a god to have a belief, so your definition is lacking in accuracy.

Is a person who never heard of the idea of God an atheist or do you consider this to be a different thing? IE: If 2000 years in the future, there is no more religion and we know exactly where we came from and how the universe was created and no one has mentioned the idea of God in 1000 years.
 
30 pages and still zero facts that make atheism in general is a religion lol
does anybody have any . . . or even ONE
 
I said this is wrong:

nothing to believe in

in fact it is an impossible condition for any conscious human

I believe he said that in the context of god, not everything.
 
30 pages and still zero facts that make atheism in general is a religion lol
does anybody have any . . . or even ONE
It's not a matter of facts - we're talking opinions here.

In one person's opinion, atheists believe no gods exist, and thus it is a belief system, and therefor atheism is a religion.

In another person's opinion, atheists believe no gods exist, and thus believe in no supernatural entities, and therefor atheism is NOT a religion.


It's all opinion though, because there's no way to prove one way or another whether disbelief is belief or whatever.
 
Complete claptrap. Atheism applies only to number 1.

Belief 2 is secularism. Many atheists are secularism, but being atheist doesn't make you secularist.

Belief 3 is often implied by the lack of belief in god, but many atheists believe the universe could have been caused by an advanced alien race, or it is a computer simulation.

Belief 4 atheism has zero to do with climate change

Belief 5 football fans are heavily influenced by football players. Chess players are heavily influenced by other chess players. Chefs by other chefs, etc etc etc. Nothing to do with religion.

You might want to look into a little thing called 'correlation does not imply causation' as you fall into that trap 4 separate times in your post.
According to posts I've read, atheism is a personal choice and choices are based on definitive evidence.

(1) Describe any evidence, for example, in the creation of the universe that precludes the existence of gods.
(2) Name an atheist who believes religion should be a part of government.
(3) In your rebuttal, you listed an alien race and a computer simulation as examples of other plausibilities for 'creators' of the universe but how could an atheist believe these? Aliens should be considered an example of gods. Computer simulations, even 'self sustaining' computer simulations, should be considered created by ...gods.
(4) I recognize a correlation, here. Even though a preponderance of self proclaimed atheists believe global warming is created by man, there's no proof it is a defining belief of an atheist. I take it off the table.
(5) Belief in secular authority. Do atheists believe in the opposite authority, religious authority?

I've listed 4 different beliefs within an atheist's belief system.
 
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According to posts I've read, atheism is a personal choice and choices are based on definitive evidence.
(1) Describe evidence that precludes the existence of gods.

Not here to argue this but burden of proof blah blah blah

(2) Name an atheist who believes religion should be a part of government.

I don't know any. Now using the same logic: Name an atheist who believes that they are going to have a party on the sun tonight with Elvis Presley and Winston Churchill. None. Does that mean that atheism has anything to do with partying with Elvis Presley and Winston Churchill? No.

(3) In your rebuttal, you listed an alien race and a computer simulation as examples of other plausibilities for 'creators' of the universe, but how could an atheist believe these? Aliens should be considered an example of gods. Computer simulations, even 'self sustaining' computer simulations, should be considered created by ...gods.

Aliens should be considered an example of gods? Are you Christian? This depends on how you define gods but I certainly wouldn't prescribe that term to an alien race.

(4) I see a correlation, here. Even though a preponderance of self proclaimed atheists believe global warming is created by man, there's no proof it is a defining belief of an atheist. I take it off the table.

Ok, good.

(5) belief in secular authority. Or do atheists believe in religious authority?
[/QUOTE]

There is no secular authority. I've read a couple of Hitchens books, I don't consider him any kind of authority (or Dawkins/Harris/whoever else). I've also read books by JK Rowling, Eric Schmidt etc etc etc. No, atheists don't necessarily believe in religious authority, as I've been trying to say, the only belief you can infer that someone holds or does not hold from the knowledge that they are atheist is that they have a lack of belief in God. NOTHING ELSE. In the same way the only thing you can infer from knowing someone is theist is that they believe in some form of god, not whether they are secular, whether they are good/bad, believe in one god or many gods, the christian god or the hindu ones.

You can't assume and prescribe all these values and beliefs to people when you literally only know 1 tiny thing about them.
 
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