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Thread: #Wexit

  1. #21
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    Re: #Wexit

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    This is my sense as well. It's a pipe dream....or should I say pipe nightmare...excuse the pun. The fact that conservatives were hitting percentages in the 80's was significant, though. It does seem to suggest a far more unified mindframe.

    So, how do we simmer this down? Again, Trudeau nearly lost the election through buying that pipeline - giving those votes to the Green party and the NDP. Is there anything that can be done to make them happy? Or is it too early in the tantrum to attempt reason?
    You're mind is stuck in partisanship - a divisive mindset - that you've lost sight of the ball!
    The issue has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism!
    Therefore, you're the one flaming divisiveness when you keep trying to bring this problem down to the level of mere partisanship!



    My dear friend Nate, you simply just don't understand why helping Alberta should be at the top of the list!
    Helping Alberta is...…...helping Canada!



    So maybe it'll clear it up for you - here's something from the Fraser Institute!


    In short, Alberta is a province that generates large amounts of revenue but requires a smaller amount of federal spending per-person than most other provinces.

    Together, these two factors make Alberta a big net contributor to the health of federal finances.

    This makes economic recovery in Alberta crucial not just for Albertans, but for Canada’s public finances.
    You are being redirected...


    That's why Trudeau's half-hearted attempt to "help" Alberta, is just not good enough! Especially so when Trudeau spends our money like a drunken sailor!
    It should be his top priority!


    Simple common sense:


    You don't neglect the goose that lays the golden eggs!
    Last edited by tosca1; 10-27-19 at 03:40 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: #Wexit

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
    You're mind is stuck in partisanship - a divisive mindset - that you've lost sight of the ball!
    The issue has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism!
    Therefore, you're the one flaming divisiveness when you keep trying to bring this problem down to the level of mere partisanship!



    My dear friend Nate, you simply just don't understand why helping Alberta should be at the top of the list!
    Helping Alberta is...…...helping Canada!



    So maybe it'll clear it up for you - here's something from the Fraser Institute!



    You are being redirected...


    That's why Trudeau's half-hearted attempt to "help" Alberta, is just not good enough! Especially so when Trudeau spends our money like a drunken sailor!
    It should be his top priority!


    Simple common sense:


    You don't neglect the goose that lays the golden eggs!
    Help Alberta? Ever hear the slogan, "Let them freeze in the dark!"? That was Alberta's reaction when Trudeau 1 said we needed a "national energy policy" so Maritimers didn't have to pay world prices for Canadian oil. Alberta is part of Canada every time they need something but just let another oil boom happen and It's every Albertan for himself.
    Better a sister in a whore-house than a brother in the Conservative Party.

  3. #23
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    Re: #Wexit

    Crimeney, you guys are even polite when you argue politics!!

    I am so jealous.
    Quote Originally Posted by theliquidguy
    Thats all fine and good,
    BUT THE BOTTOM LINE: POLITICAL BIAS WAS NOT A FACTOR.

  4. #24
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    Re: #Wexit

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
    You're mind is stuck in partisanship - a divisive mindset - that you've lost sight of the ball!
    The issue has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism!
    Therefore, you're the one flaming divisiveness when you keep trying to bring this problem down to the level of mere partisanship!



    My dear friend Nate, you simply just don't understand why helping Alberta should be at the top of the list!
    Helping Alberta is...…...helping Canada!



    So maybe it'll clear it up for you - here's something from the Fraser Institute!



    You are being redirected...


    That's why Trudeau's half-hearted attempt to "help" Alberta, is just not good enough! Especially so when Trudeau spends our money like a drunken sailor!
    It should be his top priority!


    Simple common sense:


    You don't neglect the goose that lays the golden eggs!

    Tos, once again, he's building a pipeline.

    And yes, I'm rather divisive, when it comes to putting distance between myself and mouth breathing cock sniffers who don't know how good they've got it.

    And, by the way, both Ontario and Quebec contribute more to GDP than Alberta. Go ahead, look it up. Ontario contributes nearly triple what Alberta does. One thing about statistics, Tos...they ain't partisan. Now, what were you saying about that pesky ol' goose?

    Back to you, my dear friend.
    Life's too short...

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    Winning comes so easily, I barely have to think about it. I've been called the Donald Trump of forum for good reason.

  5. #25
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    Re: #Wexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    Crimeney, you guys are even polite when you argue politics!!

    I am so jealous.
    Sorry...
    Life's too short...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mashmont View Post
    Winning comes so easily, I barely have to think about it. I've been called the Donald Trump of forum for good reason.

  6. #26
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    Re: #Wexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilroddy View Post
    OlNate:

    I understand and share your frustation with separatist movements but history and law give provinces certain rights including a type of sovereignty which predates the creation of the confederation of Canada.

    Who petitioned the British Parliament to create Canada? It was provincial leaders of provincial governments who cooperated to create Canada. Canada is a confederation of provinces with some territories to boot and has been since 1867. The Provinces created Canada in cooperation with the British Parliament between 1862 and 1867. Canada is the child and the provinces are the parents. Not the other way around.

    Since some of the provinces pre-existed Canada they have a better legal and constitutional claim to sovereignty than the whole confederation. I didn't make this history and constitutional law up. It's just the way it is. We have not had a civil war like the Americans to settle the issue of a right to secession, so that right still remains an open question and a strong case can be made for a right to secession by at least a majority of the provinces. I don't like it any more than you do, but that is the legal reality we face. About the only legal precedent in Canadian history supporting the primacy of the Federal Government is Sir John A MacDonald's use of the Canadian militia to crush the Assiniboine Territory Rebellion of 1870 and the forced creation of the Province of Manitoba that year by the Manitoba Act of 1870. Since the Provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta were created by acts of the Canadian Parliament in 1905, I suppose that the Federal Government could legally revoke those two province's existence too, but that would be politically impossible today in my opinion.

    So we are stuck with political and legal/constitutional realities which make provinces far more sovereign and far more powerful than for example US states and therefore we have to live with that.

    I like the idea of a legal settlement for secession act but such an act would effectively change the BNA Act of 1867 and the Canadian Constitutional Act of 1982, thus requiring the ratification of all provinces in Canada. So I think your very good idea would be viewed by legal scholars and jurists as dead on arrival.

    Money and Islands would be a good title for a Canadian History book!

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
    Roddy, I hope I don't lose your respect here, because on most subject I highly respect you. And I appreciate your reasoned post, I do.

    But, to give you some insight into where I land on this one, I would not be opposed to military intervention, should any province hold the rest of the country hostage in any separation coup. We will agree on many things, including that we need to look into ensuring that Alberta and Saskatchewan needs to be looked after, and treated fairly, and I would hear any evidence to support that notion, should it be presented in an effort to improve the situation, and bring unity to our country. But the second it comes around to separation, well...I can't see that as anything short of treason, not to mention theft. Things that happened hundreds of years ago do not reflect the reality that every province is beholden to the country overall, if for no other reason than for the investments all Canadians have made in every province.

    I look forward to agreeing on many things in the future, and apologize for my unwillingness to budge on this issue...but only because it seems I'm being harsh in your direction, not because I think for a second that I'm wrong.
    Life's too short...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mashmont View Post
    Winning comes so easily, I barely have to think about it. I've been called the Donald Trump of forum for good reason.

  7. #27
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    Re: #Wexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Help Alberta? Ever hear the slogan, "Let them freeze in the dark!"? That was Alberta's reaction when Trudeau 1 said we needed a "national energy policy" so Maritimers didn't have to pay world prices for Canadian oil. Alberta is part of Canada every time they need something but just let another oil boom happen and It's every Albertan for himself.
    When the Saudi Oil Embargo hit back in the 70's in the U.S., in response to Carter's "Drive 55" laws, bumper stickers popped up on Texas cars: "Drive 70 - Freeze a Yankee!" and "Let the Yankees Freeze".
    Yep, Texas is our version of Alberta alright, and Idaho and Utah are our "Quebecs".
    Quote Originally Posted by theliquidguy
    Thats all fine and good,
    BUT THE BOTTOM LINE: POLITICAL BIAS WAS NOT A FACTOR.

  8. #28
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    Re: #Wexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    When the Saudi Oil Embargo hit back in the 70's in the U.S., in response to Carter's "Drive 55" laws, bumper stickers popped up on Texas cars: "Drive 70 - Freeze a Yankee!" and "Let the Yankees Freeze".
    Yep, Texas is our version of Alberta alright, and Idaho and Utah are our "Quebecs".
    Just so you know, the 55 MPH speed limit was imposed by NIXON, not Carter in response to the 1973 oil embargo which followed the 1973 Yom Kippur war. Actually the original speed limit was 50, but that didn't fly (you can't fly at 50).

    National Maximum Speed Law - Wikipedia

    1973 oil crisis - Wikipedia
    Last edited by upsideguy; 10-27-19 at 10:48 PM.

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  9. #29
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    Re: #Wexit

    Quote Originally Posted by OlNate View Post
    Roddy, I hope I don't lose your respect here, because on most subject I highly respect you. And I appreciate your reasoned post, I do.

    But, to give you some insight into where I land on this one, I would not be opposed to military intervention, should any province hold the rest of the country hostage in any separation coup. We will agree on many things, including that we need to look into ensuring that Alberta and Saskatchewan needs to be looked after, and treated fairly, and I would hear any evidence to support that notion, should it be presented in an effort to improve the situation, and bring unity to our country. But the second it comes around to separation, well...I can't see that as anything short of treason, not to mention theft. Things that happened hundreds of years ago do not reflect the reality that every province is beholden to the country overall, if for no other reason than for the investments all Canadians have made in every province.

    I look forward to agreeing on many things in the future, and apologize for my unwillingness to budge on this issue...but only because it seems I'm being harsh in your direction, not because I think for a second that I'm wrong.
    OlNate:

    No need to worry about losing my respect as I often respect folks who disagree with me more than those who go along with me.

    That being settled, some clarification is necessary. I do not now, nor have I ever supported separatism of any flavour in Canada. I had a much older family friend killed while diffusing a post office box bomb in Montreal in the late 1960's and lived through the October Crisis and Trudeau the Elder's use of troops and the War Measures Act in 1970. As an Anglo-Quebecer you will likely find very few Canadians more adamantly opposed to Separation than I.

    However my family also had good friends who were woken from their sleep in the wee hours of the morning and were arrested without charge because their names were on lists in October 1970. They hadn't done anything wrong except go to parties and lectures with people connected to radical separatist elements, but they and their families were traumatised by Canada's iron fist in this moment of apprehended insurrection. Their experiences that October poisoned many of them to Canada and "les autres" and my parents lost good friends that fall as the two solitudes widened into an abysmal social fissure. That is the other face of heavy-handed defence of Canadian Statism and unity. Having seen both sides of this cursed coin, I would do just about anything to honourably avoid such conditions arising again in any part of Canada.

    That being said, I do not believe we can change the rules of Confederation to suit or own modern view of how things should be, because such unilateral changes will only anger and alienate our fellow Canadians who have a different vision. In my opinion, we must accept the flawed rules and principles baked into Confederation and work to avoid any part of the country becoming so alienated from the whole that it chooses to use those ancient powers and rights to leave Canada. The rules may be old, but they are still the rules and were last enshrined less than forty years ago in the Constitutional Act of Canada of 1982.

    OlNate, have you ever been in the midst of military action? It is monstrous and terrible in the extreme and is ultimately a pointless tragedy. I would not wish that on any part of Canada unless it was unavoidably necessitated to protect lives in immediate and dire peril. Use of the military is a game-changer and can more deeply sunder a people than nationalism of self-interested, greed-driven, populism. Look to our cousins to the south who are still wrestling with the divisions and reverberating animosity of a civil war which ended before Canadian Confederation even happened. That is an historical legacy which I pray Canada can always avoid. So, except in the case of a dire life-threatening action by a separating group which is immediate and cannot be stopped by other means, I think political solutions rather than brute force must be used.

    I agree with you that proactive prevention of separatism is a must and that any Canadian who wants Canada to endure for their children and grandchildren to enjoy must work to help all parts of the Confederation to realise a better future and to build stronger communities. So we are aligned on that political vector and the need to push for it.

    Continued next post.
    Last edited by Evilroddy; 10-27-19 at 11:45 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Re: #Wexit

    Please don't interpret this next paragraph as a lecture or an admonition but careful use of language is important in preserving the confederation. The use of terms like treason and theft may be valid in a unitary state but in a confederation of sovereign provinces they may not be apt. I feel the drives and passions which lead to choosing such words but I suppress them with great difficulty. I understand that their utterance is born from a fierce and honest nationalism in many Canadians but they are terms of accusation and division which may alienate many others and may make the job of keeping Canada together even more difficult. Therefore caution should be adopted when using such terms publicly. That's not PC mind-control crap, that's pragmatic political reality in the fragile but beautiful jewel of Canadian confederation.

    I agree that all of Canada has invested in and has an interest in every part of Canada and that no province can stand on its own as well as it stands within confederation but those are intellectual arguments and separatism is first and foremost a passion and a cause of the heart, not a logical, mental calculation. So such arguments will have limited utility in dealing with separatism in my experience.

    I look forward to disagreeing with you on more things in the future because by disagreeing andv debating we can both learn more from each other's positions and arguments. Never apologise for thinking what you think or believing what you believe, so long as you are thoughtful in your mind and honest in your heart about how you got to those positions. Just be willing to listen to other points of view in peace and with an open mind and no one can ask any more of you. You're not being harsh from my perspective, you're being honest and passionate about what you believe and that's cool, so long as we both keep the Queen's peace and behave ourselves in debate. I have been stabbed and shot in my hapless past so harshness of words is most definitly not a problem. Rage on, sir and defend Canada in the best way you can. I will do the same on a slightly less ragey vector and hopefully we can both make a difference.

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
    Last edited by Evilroddy; 10-27-19 at 11:50 PM.
    "At the heart of quantum mechanics is a rule that sometimes governs politicians or CEOs - as long as no one is watching, anything goes.
    ― Lawrence M. Krauss

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