Trudeau is pooched.

Welp...while Americans were having a field day with the whole Cohen thing, we had our own little party up here...Jody Wilson-Raybould got the mic. Damn! And it goes a little something like this...

Jody Wilson-Raybould says she was target of ‘veiled threats’ over SNC-Lavalin prosecution | The Star

Now, first up, Trudeau was my guy. I voted for him. I approve of a lot of what he has done in this country, found issue with a few things, but overall, given the alternatives, I feel like he was the right choice. So, of course, my natural inclination is to want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

However. Upon reading what this woman had to say, I have no choice, as a Liberal, to be at the front of the line, DEMANDING that this be fully investigated, and that, if the allegations are found to be true, Justin Trudeau immediately step down as Prime Minister of Canada. Irrespective of the reasoning behind it, the jobs he says he was attempting to save, if this is proven to be true then he has utterly destroyed the credibility of not only himself, but the general philosophical movement he claimed to represent, however categorically unrepresentative of it this action may be. If proven true (sorry, I have to keep saying that), this is a hard lesson that the best of ideas can be the most effective way to mask the same old ****.

I know there will be gloating. I have been a staunch supporter, and talked some serious **** in defense or in praise of this guy. To say that I feel like my ass is showing right now is a massive understatement. So knock yourselves out, if this is proven true, I earned it. But no matter what, the right thing to do for this country is to ensure the integrity and credibility of our highest office. Nevertheless, if proven true, I owe a lot of folks an apology.

I want to see an investigation proceed immediately. For all the reasons stated above, but perhaps most personally, because if this is proven to be true, he made an idiot out of me for thinking he was a good guy, and battling on his his behalf. Guess we'll find out...I'm not thinking he's gonna find a way to wiggle his way out of this one.

As a side note, if anyone is having a party tonight, it's the NDP. 2019 is going to be interesting. At least he managed to legalize pot...hehe...a lot of supporters are gonna need it tonight.

For the most part, I have been disappointed with Trudeau. Let's see how this plays out -- I'm not jumping the gun.

OlNate said:

Welp...while Americans were having a field day with the whole Cohen thing, we had our own little party up here...Jody Wilson-Raybould got the mic. Damn! And it goes a little something like this...

Jody Wilson-Raybould says she was target of ‘veiled threats’ over SNC-Lavalin prosecution | The Star

Now, first up, Trudeau was my guy. I voted for him. I approve of a lot of what he has done in this country, found issue with a few things, but overall, given the alternatives, I feel like he was the right choice. So, of course, my natural inclination is to want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

However. Upon reading what this woman had to say, I have no choice, as a Liberal, to be at the front of the line, DEMANDING that this be fully investigated, and that, if the allegations are found to be true, Justin Trudeau immediately step down as Prime Minister of Canada. Irrespective of the reasoning behind it, the jobs he says he was attempting to save, if this is proven to be true then he has utterly destroyed the credibility of not only himself, but the general philosophical movement he claimed to represent, however categorically unrepresentative of it this action may be. If proven true (sorry, I have to keep saying that), this is a hard lesson that the best of ideas can be the most effective way to mask the same old ****.

I know there will be gloating. I have been a staunch supporter, and talked some serious **** in defense or in praise of this guy. To say that I feel like my ass is showing right now is a massive understatement. So knock yourselves out, if this is proven true, I earned it. But no matter what, the right thing to do for this country is to ensure the integrity and credibility of our highest office. Nevertheless, if proven true, I owe a lot of folks an apology.

I want to see an investigation proceed immediately. For all the reasons stated above, but perhaps most personally, because if this is proven to be true, he made an idiot out of me for thinking he was a good guy, and battling on his his behalf. Guess we'll find out...I'm not thinking he's gonna find a way to wiggle his way out of this one.

As a side note, if anyone is having a party tonight, it's the NDP. 2019 is going to be interesting. At least he managed to legalize pot...hehe...a lot of supporters are gonna need it tonight.

Click to expand...

Doesn't matter, when the cards were down and there has been serious allegations of wrong doing, you are saying it should be investigated fully and if true, he should step down immediately, that puts you light-years ahead of nearly half the forum that thinks that people like Trump should be fully left alone and even that some of those investigating Trump should be sent to jail themselves.

I have continued to passively support Trudeau but his failure, neigh, ineptitude at producing voting reform was a massive hit for me to take, Marijuana legalization somewhat restored my faith, though I would have tweaked a few things.

But I totally agree with everything you've said here.

It was only a matter of time before his incompetence caught up with him.

OlNate said:

However. Upon reading what this woman had to say, I have no choice, as a Liberal, to be at the front of the line, DEMANDING that this be fully investigated, and that, if the allegations are found to be true, Justin Trudeau immediately step down as Prime Minister of Canada.

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^
Take note: yet another example of someone on the left standing up for the right thing because it is the right thing, no matter the party of the accused.

Compare that with the reactions you remember from DP by those on the right (whether or not they chose an "independent" or "libertarian" type label) to accusations against a Republican.

OlNate said:

But no matter what, the right thing to do for this country is to ensure the integrity and credibility of our highest office. Nevertheless, if proven true, I owe a lot of folks an apology.

Click to expand...

Do you, though? We work with what we have in front of us. What really matters is what we do at that point, and later, what we do if the information changes.

It's not like you voted for someone with 20+ accusations of sexual misconduct against him, a person who surrounded himself with criminals, and then declared every single investigation into that person is a "witch hunt" even before it concluded. Trudeau did seem like a good guy based on the information available. If new information you couldn't have known like this comes to light and you change your opinion, I don't think you owe anyone an apology.

The apology is only owed by those who relentlessly defend a target despite legitimate (the wiggle room word, unfortunately unavoidable) new negative information.

For example, you didn't immediately declare this all a hoax, and I know you won't live-post any hearing while declaring that everything the alleged victim says must be a hoax, how the people asking questions bad for Trudeau must be in on it, yadda yadda remember Kavanaugh yadda yadda.





Apparently, this one main difference between identifiable "sides" carries over into other countries....

OlNate said:

Welp...while Americans were having a field day with the whole Cohen thing, we had our own little party up here...Jody Wilson-Raybould got the mic. Damn! And it goes a little something like this...

Jody Wilson-Raybould says she was target of ‘veiled threats’ over SNC-Lavalin prosecution | The Star

Now, first up, Trudeau was my guy. I voted for him. I approve of a lot of what he has done in this country, found issue with a few things, but overall, given the alternatives, I feel like he was the right choice. So, of course, my natural inclination is to want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

However. Upon reading what this woman had to say, I have no choice, as a Liberal, to be at the front of the line, DEMANDING that this be fully investigated, and that, if the allegations are found to be true, Justin Trudeau immediately step down as Prime Minister of Canada. Irrespective of the reasoning behind it, the jobs he says he was attempting to save, if this is proven to be true then he has utterly destroyed the credibility of not only himself, but the general philosophical movement he claimed to represent, however categorically unrepresentative of it this action may be. If proven true (sorry, I have to keep saying that), this is a hard lesson that the best of ideas can be the most effective way to mask the same old ****.

I know there will be gloating. I have been a staunch supporter, and talked some serious **** in defense or in praise of this guy. To say that I feel like my ass is showing right now is a massive understatement. So knock yourselves out, if this is proven true, I earned it. But no matter what, the right thing to do for this country is to ensure the integrity and credibility of our highest office. Nevertheless, if proven true, I owe a lot of folks an apology.

I want to see an investigation proceed immediately. For all the reasons stated above, but perhaps most personally, because if this is proven to be true, he made an idiot out of me for thinking he was a good guy, and battling on his his behalf. Guess we'll find out...I'm not thinking he's gonna find a way to wiggle his way out of this one.

As a side note, if anyone is having a party tonight, it's the NDP. 2019 is going to be interesting. At least he managed to legalize pot...hehe...a lot of supporters are gonna need it tonight.

Click to expand...

OlNate:

First point, you owe no one any apology. Democracies make mistakes and democracies can correct them at the next election.

I hear you and I sympathise with your frustration and disenchantment. Trudeau and his cabinet/government handled this badly. But (and there is always a but) did the actions of the eleven officials named by Ms. Wilson-Raybould rise to the level of criminal activity or were they just politics in its often ugly form. Ms. Wilson-Raybould herself asserted before the Justice Committee that the pressure she experienced did not rise to the level of criminality. Others may disagree. If there is no reasonable grounds that a criminal act occurred then there is no reason for any compelled resignations or a public inquiry as this becomes a political issue rather than a legal one. Thus does it make sense to pursue a legal process to correct an admittedly tawdry political issue when there is a general election coming up in a few months which can correct it politically?
I say call the named officials before the Justice Committee and get their sworn testimony on public record. Waive the absurd time limits which the Justice committee is using in order to get thorough questioning and testimony done. Have the Ethics Commissioner continue his parallel investigation to its conclusion and make his whole findings public. Let the press/media rake the Trudeau Government over the coals of politics until the election and let the Canadian people make the decision to either toss Mr. Trudeau and his government to the curb or reelect them as a democracy should. Using legal tribunals to leverage political crises is unhealthy for democracies in the long-run because these powerful tools should be kept sharp in the shed for when truely criminal malfeasance makes their use needed. To overuse these tools risks trivialising their import in real criminal investigations.

I would prefer having the opportunity of tossing out the dauphine Trudeau rather than delegating my authority to a bunch of political-hack lawyers misusing a legal mechanism for political purposes. Unless and until the Ethics Commissioner or the Justice Committee finds grounds for real criminal prosecution, let this remain a political matter solved by a political mechanism - an election.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

ajn678 said:

It was only a matter of time before his incompetence caught up with him.

Click to expand...

So why do you still support Trump?

Middleground said:

So why do you still support Trump?

Click to expand...

Show me a single post in which I have supported Trump.

ajn678 said:

Show me a single post in which I have supported Trump.

Click to expand...

So you don't support him? Sorry, I was wrong.

I have to agree and a new leader should be selected, I think Freeland would be a good leader. However, it is going to take much more than this for me to vote NDP or Conservative and I believe many others will feel the same way especially if Trudeau resigns and a new leader is chosen.

I have no doubts that a Conservative government would have done an identical thing for SNC or a company in Alberta.

ajn678 said:

It was only a matter of time before his incompetence caught up with him.

Click to expand...

Not just his incompetence, but his arrogance and sense of entitlement. He was brought up being told he was the Prince of Canada. If someone named John Smith had shown up at the Liberal leadership convention with the same CV that Trudeau had, they would have assumed he was there to take lunch orders. Trudeau had ZERO credentials, and it shows.

Evilroddy said:

OlNate:

First point, you owe no one any apology. Democracies make mistakes and democracies can correct them at the next election.

Click to expand...

Agree.

I hear you and I sympathise with your frustration and disenchantment. Trudeau and his cabinet/government handled this badly. But (and there is always a but) did the actions of the eleven officials named by Ms. Wilson-Raybould rise to the level of criminal activity or were they just politics in its often ugly form.

Click to expand...

That's a false dichotomy. If not illegal, his actions were certainly an incestuous relative thereof. The degree of bullying she was subjected to has to be investigated to see if it rose to the level of illegal interference and attempted obstruction of justice. Sure sounded like it to me. This is not an either/or as you suggest.

Carjosse said:

I have no doubts that a Conservative government would have done an identical thing for SNC or a company in Alberta.

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^^^ Gratuitous slander to try to create a false equivalence.

stevecanuck said:

Agree.



That's a false dichotomy. If not illegal, his actions were certainly an incestuous relative thereof. The degree of bullying she was subjected to has to be investigated to see if it rose to the level of illegal interference and attempted obstruction of justice. Sure sounded like it to me. This is not an either/or as you suggest.

Click to expand...

Stevecanuck:

Not a false dichotomy at all. The legality or illegality of the acts determines the mechanisms used to investigate them and redress them. Your kid calls another kid some naughty names - you sit down with him, discuss it and if necessary hand out some consequence or punishment. Your kid beats another kid with a 2-by-4 and the beaten kid is hospitalised - the legal system steps in. The actions determine the pathway to resolution and the means of redress.

If the liberal party officials' behaviours were criminal, then that would indicate one set of possible pathways including the judicial system. If the behaviour was not illegal, then that requires different pathways like political ones lying outside the judicial system. The former Attorney General and Justice Minister Ms. Wilson-Raybould testified under oath that in her informed legal opinion the actions and pressure she felt subjected to from the named 11 cabinet officials and civil service did not constitute criminal behaviour. Are you going to challenge and argue with her assertion given her training and experience in such matters?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Mr Person said:

Do you, though? We work with what we have in front of us. What really matters is what we do at that point, and later, what we do if the information changes.

Click to expand...

If the allegations are proven to be true under investigation, then I think I do. We discuss politics so brashly these days, assured in our own side's absolutes. And I think that's ok, it seems that the world is in the process of deciding who it wants to be, and that is a passionate process, and often a violent one, figuratively if not literally.

But I think it's important to remember when you're fighting that you're fighting for an idea, not to pummel your fellow citizens into the dirt, and so when you've fought the fight, and find out that maybe you're on the wrong side of things, you need to own up to that...and part of that is apologizing...at least up here.

Carjosse said:

I have to agree and a new leader should be selected, I think Freeland would be a good leader. However, it is going to take much more than this for me to vote NDP or Conservative and I believe many others will feel the same way especially if Trudeau resigns and a new leader is chosen.

I have no doubts that a Conservative government would have done an identical thing for SNC or a company in Alberta.

Click to expand...

What about Jody Wilson-Raybould? I think she'd make an excellent leader.


I assume she's recently spoken to cabinet about her awful experience.
Let's wait and see who'll break ranks, and stand with her on this (if any among them will).

So far.....she's the only one that shows incredible principle and integrity among the bunch.

stevecanuck said:

Not just his incompetence, but his arrogance and sense of entitlement. He was brought up being told he was the Prince of Canada. If someone named John Smith had shown up at the Liberal leadership convention with the same CV that Trudeau had, they would have assumed he was there to take lunch orders. Trudeau had ZERO credentials, and it shows.

Click to expand...

And what credentials does Scheer have exactly?

Carjosse said:

I have to agree and a new leader should be selected, I think Freeland would be a good leader. However, it is going to take much more than this for me to vote NDP or Conservative and I believe many others will feel the same way especially if Trudeau resigns and a new leader is chosen.

I have no doubts that a Conservative government would have done an identical thing for SNC or a company in Alberta.

Click to expand...

So what is it you have against the NDP exactly? Specific policy positions? I mean I'm not sure I see the draw per today's Liberals; pretty much the only big highlight thus far has been marijuana's legalization which was both flawed, and something the NDP would have done anyways.

The only reason I voted for Trudeau is the fact that Mulcair moronically thought it'd be a smart idea to alienate his base (and the general electorate) by going further to the right than the Liberals, and the former, in part as a direct result of that absurd strategic blunder, had the best chance of keeping the Cons out of governance.

I would agree though that this controversy would not be enough for me to vote for the mouthpiece party of the rich over that of the neoliberals if the next election came down to a choice between the two.

Surrealistik said:

So what is it you have against the NDP exactly? Specific policy positions? I mean I'm not sure I see the draw per today's Liberals; pretty much the only big highlight thus far has been marijuana's legalization which was both flawed, and something the NDP would have done anyways.

The only reason I voted for Trudeau is the fact that Mulcair moronically thought it'd be a smart idea to alienate his base (and the general electorate) by going further to the right than the Liberals, and the former, in part as a direct result of that absurd strategic blunder, had the best chance of keeping the Cons out of governance.

I would agree though that this controversy would not be enough for me to vote for the mouthpiece party of the rich over that of the neoliberals if the next election came down to a choice between the two.

Click to expand...

I think the NDP is weak and divided, and Singh is not helping with that image. I support the Liberals for their economic and foreign policy.

Carjosse said:

I think the NDP is weak and divided, and Singh is not helping with that image. I support the Liberals for their economic and foreign policy.

Click to expand...

I will grant that Singh is not a stellar leader... but then neither are Sheer nor Trudeau. On the flipside, I do believe that as a historically less popular party, the NDP does need someone a cut above the other two in order to win, and this would have been a perfect opportunity for someone like Jack Layton. That having been said, I can't say I know where you're getting the idea of the NDP being divided from.

As to economic and foreign policy, I'm not sure what you can really point to that stands out for either. Trudeau took up some principled stances on the latter which I generally agree with, but nothing that really wows me. In terms of economic policy, I don't see the sort of urgent retooling and infrastructure projects this country needs to convincingly diversify away from fossil fuels and lay the foundations for participation in a 21st century global economy; the Kinder debacle was a glaring disaster in the meanwhile. I suppose I can approve of his desire to engage in trade relations, but he seems more than a tad too eager to sell out sovereignty to dangerous pacts like the TPP which accords far too much power to corporate entities and IP holders.

I dont think Trudeau is pooched, he may be but time will tell. There are a lot of people who dont really care about this. Personally I think they should care. Any politician or political party trying to interfere with the justice system for partisan political purposes is an attack on the democratic system

Carjosse said:

And what credentials does Scheer have exactly?

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He's a career politician.

Elected to the riding of Regina—Qu'Appelle at the age of 25, Scheer was re-elected in 2006, 2008, and 2011 before becoming the Speaker of the House of Commons at age 32, making him the youngest Speaker in the chamber's history. He held the speaker role for the entirety of the 41st Canadian Parliament.

OlNate said:

Welp...while Americans were having a field day with the whole Cohen thing, we had our own little party up here...Jody Wilson-Raybould got the mic. Damn! And it goes a little something like this...

Jody Wilson-Raybould says she was target of ‘veiled threats’ over SNC-Lavalin prosecution | The Star

Now, first up, Trudeau was my guy. I voted for him. I approve of a lot of what he has done in this country, found issue with a few things, but overall, given the alternatives, I feel like he was the right choice. So, of course, my natural inclination is to want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

However. Upon reading what this woman had to say, I have no choice, as a Liberal, to be at the front of the line, DEMANDING that this be fully investigated, and that, if the allegations are found to be true, Justin Trudeau immediately step down as Prime Minister of Canada. Irrespective of the reasoning behind it, the jobs he says he was attempting to save, if this is proven to be true then he has utterly destroyed the credibility of not only himself, but the general philosophical movement he claimed to represent, however categorically unrepresentative of it this action may be. If proven true (sorry, I have to keep saying that), this is a hard lesson that the best of ideas can be the most effective way to mask the same old ****.

I know there will be gloating. I have been a staunch supporter, and talked some serious **** in defense or in praise of this guy. To say that I feel like my ass is showing right now is a massive understatement. So knock yourselves out, if this is proven true, I earned it. But no matter what, the right thing to do for this country is to ensure the integrity and credibility of our highest office. Nevertheless, if proven true, I owe a lot of folks an apology.

I want to see an investigation proceed immediately. For all the reasons stated above, but perhaps most personally, because if this is proven to be true, he made an idiot out of me for thinking he was a good guy, and battling on his his behalf. Guess we'll find out...I'm not thinking he's gonna find a way to wiggle his way out of this one.

As a side note, if anyone is having a party tonight, it's the NDP. 2019 is going to be interesting. At least he managed to legalize pot...hehe...a lot of supporters are gonna need it tonight.

Click to expand...

If everyone who supported a politician and later regretted it owed an apology, we'd all be apologizing to each other constantly. At least you didn't tune in to your favorite conspiracy theory website in order to figure out how to spin it as a positive, call the negative aspects fake-news, and call the subsequent investigation a witch hunt.

My own country could use a lot more staunch supporters like you and a lot fewer of the kind we too often see on the political right.

stevecanuck said:

He's a career politician.

Elected to the riding of Regina—Qu'Appelle at the age of 25, Scheer was re-elected in 2006, 2008, and 2011 before becoming the Speaker of the House of Commons at age 32, making him the youngest Speaker in the chamber's history. He held the speaker role for the entirety of the 41st Canadian Parliament.

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And how exactly would that be any different than being the son of of Canada's most famous prime minster's, Justin was exposed to actual governing. Trudeau has been an MP since 2008 so only two years less than Scheer.

Carjosse said:

And how exactly would that be any different than being the son of of Canada's most famous prime minster's, Justin was exposed to actual governing. Trudeau has been an MP since 2008 so only two years less than Scheer.

Click to expand...

Fair point. I wonder if anyone is truly qualified.