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Trudeau is pooched.

OlNate said:
Re: the bolded, perhaps. But we voted for better than the Conservatives, that's what we were sold.

I like Freeland as well, she might be the best way to pull the party out of the fire, as long as she was in no way connected to this nightmare. But if the allegations prove true, then everyone involved should resign. Even there it will be difficult to reestablish trust, but without doing so it will be impossible. Don't forget, this was the Liberals' redemption song, after their decimation in 2011.
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Well she is foreign minister, it wouldn't have concerned in that role or as an MP. I am also willing to bet they are waiting to see how the polls shape out, it may even improve their support in key areas.
 
Carjosse said:
Well she is foreign minister, it wouldn't have concerned in that role or as an MP. I am also willing to bet they are waiting to see how the polls shape out, it may even improve their support in key areas.
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Yup, pollsters are going to be busy earlier than expected, I would imagine. Unfortunately the decision will most likely be made based on that, vs. volunteering to do the right thing...though, again, that's assuming that this is as bad as it sounds, and there isn't another side to the story.
 
OlNate said:
Yup, pollsters are going to be busy earlier than expected, I would imagine. Unfortunately the decision will most likely be made based on that, vs. volunteering to do the right thing...though, again, that's assuming that this is as bad as it sounds, and there isn't another side to the story.
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You have to remember that for the important ridings in Quebec especially those with a lot SNC Lavelin employees Trudeau's position can very easily just be seen as doing his job as an MP from Quebec and may win votes away from parties like the Bloc.
 
Carjosse said:
You have to remember that for the important ridings in Quebec especially those with a lot SNC Lavelin employees Trudeau's position can very easily just be seen as doing his job as an MP from Quebec and may win votes away from parties like the Bloc.
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True...but should it? Again, better than the alternatives, in my opinion, but not by much - I would hope that at least they would pick someone else to lead the party if an investigation proves that he acted shadily.
 
OlNate said:
True...but should it? Again, better than the alternatives, in my opinion, but not by much - I would hope that at least they would pick someone else to lead the party if an investigation proves that he acted shadily.
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The reason this has so much impact is that it is Trudeau and he is the prime minister, Rob Ford does this kind of stuff on a semi-weekly basis but no one is calling for him to resign as everyone expects him to be scum. Unless it can be proven what he did was criminal people have reason to believe he was acting in the best interests of Quebec.
 
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OlNate said:
Jumping in...cuz I wanna.. :)

My issue with the NDP is that while I really like a lot of their ideologies and vision for the future, I never really see the big picture, in terms of how they are going to make it happen. 2015 was a year of wild promising in any direction they could for the NDP, making poor Mulcair look like a used car salesman. There was nothing they wanted to do that I was again...I just had no confidence that they would make it happen. Plus, the NDP are nearly equivalent with the CPC, in terms of ugly campaigns and rabid, exhausting fringe supporters.
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I mean, Mulcair besides being a mediocre leader (NDP sadly has a lot of those) was actually _less_ ambitious in the end than Trudeau, which is what cost him my vote, and the vote of many others, so I don't see the crazed used car saleman so much as a sell out who inexplicably believed it was better to let the Liberals steal their platform as they moved in the direction of the PCs rather than his party's credo; it was beyond surreal. Balanced budgets during a recession while oil prices are tanking? Really Mulcair? It's little wonder the man was turfed. The NDP of recent years wasn't the NDP of starry eyed idealism so much as ill-advised if not inane incrementalism.

Given this combination, and how important I personally feel these initiatives are, I am concerned that the NDP will **** it up, and it will be decades before Canadians are willing to give it another shot. I mean, hell, LOTS of folks are still talking about Rae Days in Ontario...how long ago was that? :lol:
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Let's not forget that Rae was fundamentally a Liberal... and of course became one not long after.


OlNate said:
The two major Liberal economic achievements that I can think of off the top of my head are their handling of the NAFTA negotiations and legalizing pot. Those two things would alone would make me vote for them again (albeit only if they replace Trudeau if these allegations prove true).
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NDP would have delivered on marijuana anyways, so I'm not sure I can, as a point of differentiation, give the Liberals too much credit here, particularly given the flawed nature of the rollout (but I can absolutely credit them over the Cons). As to the NAFTA renegotiation with Trump, I'm not so sure I'd call recouping NAFTA but worse to be particularly great, whereas the explicitly demonstrable impacts of it in the first place were middling: NAFTA's Winners and Losers
 
Carjosse said:
The reason this has so much impact is that it is Trudeau and he is the prime minister, Rob Ford does this kind of stuff on a semi-weekly basis but no one is calling for him to resign as everyone expects him to be scum. Unless it can be proven what he did was criminal people have reason to believe he was acting in the best interests of Quebec.
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Ford is scum incarnate, and the tide has largely turned against him here in Ontario since his plans to partially privatize our healthcare have been leaked; I can only hope his opposition knows how to channel that outrage into an electoral win down the road.

Moreover, what Ford is perceived as getting away with (which again, he's not; not really) is no excuse for what appears to be blatant corruption and impropriety on Trudeau's part. There is nothing good about this, and Trudeau can, should and must be called out for these actions, and face a political price if these allegations pan out. Quebec pork is absolutely no excuse for the abuse of his power in the ways that were expressed.
 
Surrealistik said:
I mean, Mulcair besides being a mediocre leader (NDP sadly has a lot of those) was actually _less_ ambitious in the end than Trudeau, which is what cost him my vote, and the vote of many others, so I don't see the crazed used car saleman so much as a sell out who inexplicably believed it was better to let the Liberals steal their platform as they moved in the direction of the PCs rather than his party's credo; it was beyond surreal. Balanced budgets during a recession while oil prices are tanking? Really Mulcair? It's little wonder the man was turfed. The NDP of recent years wasn't the NDP of starry eyed idealism so much as ill-advised if not inane incrementalism.
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Yeah...I mean, ok, sounds like we're using different terms for the same downward spiral, so I'm cool with your analysis. Bottom line, Mulcair was no Layton, and ultimately I think that was the problem.

Surrealistik said:
Let's not forget that Rae was fundamentally a Liberal... and of course became one not long after.
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True, but ultimately that's the last time the NDP had power in this province, and it still comes up in conversation every election... "Oh, good grief, not the NDP...you remember the nightmare last time, with the Rae days?" lol... I've heard that exact sentence more times than I can count. Perception is everything during an election.


Surrealistik said:
NDP would have delivered on marijuana anyways, so I'm not sure I can, as a point of differentiation, give the Liberals too much credit here, particularly given the flawed nature of the rollout (but I can absolutely credit them over the Cons). As to the NAFTA renegotiation with Trump, I'm not so sure I'd call recouping NAFTA but worse to be particularly great, whereas the explicitly demonstrable impacts of it in the first place were middling: NAFTA's Winners and Losers
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NDP would have decriminalized. Legalization was the important piece - even if it was done poorly, in my opinion, at least the framework to improve upon is established. Legalization is a much better prospect for driving revenue and eliminating the black market. It's definitely still a work in progress, but we're much better off having it legalized, vs. decriminalized, in my opinion.

As for NAFTA, we're a country of 36 million, standing up to a country with 330 million, and who also is the most powerful country in the world, who's president was doing his best to use us as a way to show his country what a tough guy he is. I'd say we did pretty well.... Harper / Scheer would have caved immediately, and who knows what the NDP would have done, with their lack of experience.
 
The only thing Trudeau has in common with his father is his name.

I have to say, I am continually impressed by Canadian politics. When I moved here I noticed a big difference. I'm not happy about the revelations surrounding Trudeau, but look... something was revealed, there's a scandal, there's an inquiry, people tune in to find out the facts, and then they decide. The media is not pushing a partisan agenda. They just report what's happening: Trudeau's in hot water. If he's guilty, he will probably step down and a new leader will be selected.

It's so much more civilized than the country I came from.

My only fear is that the Conservative party will get in again, and my fear is based on what happened under Paul Martin. One scandal and the cons took it to the bank. Harper did some real lasting damaging to Canada and the next guy appears to be a lot worse.

Either way, I'm proud to be Canadian :)
 
OlNate said:
True, but ultimately that's the last time the NDP had power in this province, and it still comes up in conversation every election... "Oh, good grief, not the NDP...you remember the nightmare last time, with the Rae days?" lol... I've heard that exact sentence more times than I can count. Perception is everything during an election.
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I can't dispute that; Rae did incalculable damage to the NDP politically; almost to the point I can't help but wonder if he was some kind of Liberal enemy within or plant.

NDP would have decriminalized. Legalization was the important piece - even if it was done poorly, in my opinion, at least the framework to improve upon is established. Legalization is a much better prospect for driving revenue and eliminating the black market. It's definitely still a work in progress, but we're much better off having it legalized, vs. decriminalized, in my opinion.

As for NAFTA, we're a country of 36 million, standing up to a country with 330 million, and who also is the most powerful country in the world, who's president was doing his best to use us as a way to show his country what a tough guy he is. I'd say we did pretty well.... Harper / Scheer would have caved immediately, and who knows what the NDP would have done, with their lack of experience.
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Nah. In the end, Mulclair said he would legalize, with an initial, immediate period of decriminalization. I can't at all see it remaining in the limbo of the latter, particularly given the immense pressure from inside the party, which he was already on thin ice with at the time.

As to the renegotiation, I think the better option would have been to stall out until not an absolute man-child idiot was in office, aiming for some kind of interim solution (and if, god forbid, Trump were re-elected, well, then you gotta bite the bullet). I can't say I'm happy with Trudeau essentially giving Trump a win here which is very much what that was.
 
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Grand Mal said:
Can you believe Morneau saying it was 'approporiate' for someone in his Finance Ministry to raise the subject of SNC Lavalin jobs with the Justice Minister's office? Where does he get off thinking ANY interference with the legal process is 'appropriate'?
I've always voted Liberal when I voted, except for that year I voted Rhino. I nearly sat the last one out, being unsure of Trudeau 2.0 but the Conservative Party ads pissed me off enough to get me off my ass and into the booth but unless they can pull something amazingly classy out of the hat here I won't vote for them again 'till Trudeau's history.
Doesn't matter, really- my riding's solid NDP but still. With the rift in the Conservative Party this kind of thing is liable to give us an NDP minority and gawd help us all then.
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I miss the Rhino party. What rift is thee in the conservative party? Are you talking about Maxime Bernier? The guy who left papers around for his girlfriend who was linked to the Hells to read? The guy will have a significantly less an effect on the conservatives that the greens have had on the NDP.
 
Carjosse said:
You have to remember that for the important ridings in Quebec especially those with a lot SNC Lavelin employees Trudeau's position can very easily just be seen as doing his job as an MP from Quebec and may win votes away from parties like the Bloc.
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Bloc has almost no votes to lose so not really significant. If anything the scandal could drive people to them but I seriously doubt it
 
Quag said:
I miss the Rhino party. What rift is thee in the conservative party? Are you talking about Maxime Bernier? The guy who left papers around for his girlfriend who was linked to the Hells to read? The guy will have a significantly less an effect on the conservatives that the greens have had on the NDP.
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Yeah, him. What's he calling himself- Peoples Party of Canada? I can see that flying in Alberta if he can lose some of his accent. And yeah, I guess the Greens tap into the NDP voter base but I thinkthe NDP fell in Quebec more because Ignatieff left the stage. Quebec is solid Liberal ground, federally. When the leader is francophone anyway.
 
Grand Mal said:
Yeah, him. What's he calling himself- Peoples Party of Canada? I can see that flying in Alberta if he can lose some of his accent. And yeah, I guess the Greens tap into the NDP voter base but I thinkthe NDP fell in Quebec more because Ignatieff left the stage. Quebec is solid Liberal ground, federally. When the leader is francophone anyway.
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NDP didn't really fall in Quebec they had an upblip with Layton's last campaign largely because Quebec was sick of the Liberals and the Bloc. After that they went back down, closer to previous levels as the stench of sponsorship wore off but the NDP managed to hold on to some of they gains. Who knows what will happen in the next election.
 
Quag said:
NDP didn't really fall in Quebec they had an upblip with Layton's last campaign largely because Quebec was sick of the Liberals and the Bloc. After that they went back down, closer to previous levels as the stench of sponsorship wore off but the NDP managed to hold on to some of they gains. Who knows what will happen in the next election.
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Gonna be an interesting few months in Canadian politics leading up to this election, and I haven't said that in awhile. I might find myself wishing for a reincarnation of the Rhinos.
 
Grand Mal said:
Gonna be an interesting few months in Canadian politics leading up to this election, and I haven't said that in awhile. I might find myself wishing for a reincarnation of the Rhinos.
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How I miss the Rhinos!!
I will say after her testimony Jody Wilson-Raybould could possibly become Canadas first aboriginal Prime Minister. She showed poise and integrity something the Liberal party will sorely need if they lose the next election over this and Trudeau has to step down.
 
Originally Posted by Quag View Post
Havent heard this got a link?
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hey Quag, the poster at the other forum said she saw it on the interview on CTV. She gave me this link:


Kinsella on possible criminality in the SNC case | CTV News




I don't have a sound, so I can't hear what's being said.
I don't know if her post is accurate. Let me know if this is it.

But I googled this, "Warren Kinsella is reporting on CTV that the RCMP has seized the cell phones of PMO staffers ".....and google showed DeLoray twitter (and it does says it). But when I went to that twitter, it's not there, so I assume it was taken down.
 
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tosca1 said:
hey Quag, the poster at the other forum said she saw it on the interview on CTV. She gave me this link:


Kinsella on possible criminality in the SNC case | CTV News




I don't have a sound, so I can't hear what's being said.
I don't know if her post is accurate. Let me know if this is it.

But I googled this, "Warren Kinsella is reporting on CTV that the RCMP has seized the cell phones of PMO staffers ".....and google showed DeLoray twitter (and it does says it). But when I went to that twitter, it's not there, so I assume it was taken down.
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Thanx it is vague, he claims it is his understanding and that seizing the phones is one of the things they would do. If this is true I am sure we will her more in next few days.
 
OlNate said:
I don't disagree... :shrug: It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as, again and to your point, she did some really good work for the country. But if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. I'm not really the "take no prisoners" type, I think a varying degree of involvement demands a varying degree of response, but at the same time I won't make myself a hypocrite by criticizing how the other parties operate in our country and not hold my own to the same standard. So, if a few people need to burn to reestablish credibility, well...they shouldn't have stood so close to the fire.

I'll let you know exactly how I come down on all of this when all the details come out - something I hope happens sooner than later. But I think reestablishing the credibility of our government in general should be the priority - it's been a lot of years since we've had that, and it looks like no side is better than the other in that regard.
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Just so you know.....regarding party leaders, I'm not too happy with Scheer either.
 
Quag said:
How I miss the Rhinos!!
I will say after her testimony Jody Wilson-Raybould could possibly become Canadas first aboriginal Prime Minister. She showed poise and integrity something the Liberal party will sorely need if they lose the next election over this and Trudeau has to step down.
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I like the fact too that as Attorney General - she was really non-partisan.
That's the kind she'll be as Prime Minister.

For that, I won't mind her becoming the Prime Minister (even under Liberal).
 
On CBC just now, Former Liberal Atty General says that if Wilson-Raybould's testimony isn't completely contradicted - there are lots of grounds for RCMP investigation.
 
Watching Question Period with Evan Solomon. Trudeau's line about protecting Quebec jobs seems also pooched.
According to Robert Fife, SNC cannot go anywhere because of a contract they had.

Furthermore, according to Fife, Trudeau's using a new line of "defense" - the same one he used about his groping scandal.
 
Jane Philpott is another Liberal lady who's principled, and with integrity.

Only 3, so far.
 
Poor Pixey Dust. He's just in over his empty little head.
However...if I honestly evaluate the 3 main party leaders and their platforms...I have to admit, I have no idea who's the best person for the job.
 
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