The hate speech double standard in Canada.

stevecanuck said:

Number 3: "God does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with those who have not fought against you about the religion or expelled you from your homes. God does not love the unjust people." - 60:8.

This is probably the strongest entry of the 6. But again, it came early in his Medina period while he was still playing kissy-face with the Jews. If one were to cherry-pick the Qur'an for tolerance (as Adnan Oktar was doing), this would absolutely qualify. Too bad there are hundreds of other verses that make it clear God hates infidels. compare this verse with 8:55 (The most wicked creatures in the sight of God are the unbelievers who never have faith) and ask yourself if there just might be a bit of contradiction and confusion in the Qur'an. Once you establish that, count the nice verses versus the venal verses, and a clear plurality will become obvious.

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Every religious text can be seen to be contradictory....especially when one has a destination in mind when they start reading. It's no different for Christianity. I mean, you're certainly doing a great job at trying really hard to convince everyone how bad they are, and how afraid we should be, but the reality is that if Muslims put all their stock in the worst of their texts, and ignored the message of love, then our country would look very different.

Basically, stop the hysterical nonsense. You may think yourself some kind of Quran scholar, but all you are is looking through someone's dirty laundry, trying to find a skid mark to pin on them. It's not intelligent, it's not edgy, it's simply you trying to put your hatred into big words.

Sorry, attempt #29475739 to make me an Islamophobe has failed. Go back and read the Quran some more, and find some thousand year old cherry picked verse to shine up for the next time. Heck, maybe you'll become inspired and convert....if the book is half as hateful as you think it is, maybe you've found the religion for you.

OlNate said:

Every religious text can be seen to be contradictory....especially when one has a destination in mind when they start reading. It's no different for Christianity. I mean, you're certainly doing a great job at trying really hard to convince everyone how bad they are, and how afraid we should be, but the reality is that if Muslims put all their stock in the worst of their texts, and ignored the message of love, then our country would look very different.

Basically, stop the hysterical nonsense. You may think yourself some kind of Quran scholar, but all you are is looking through someone's dirty laundry, trying to find a skid mark to pin on them. It's not intelligent, it's not edgy, it's simply you trying to put your hatred into big words.

Sorry, attempt #29475739 to make me an Islamophobe has failed. Go back and read the Quran some more, and find some thousand year old cherry picked verse to shine up for the next time. Heck, maybe you'll become inspired and convert....if the book is half as hateful as you think it is, maybe you've found the religion for you.

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Ad hominem attacks are the only tool that those who don't have a real argument resort to. See the above.

OlNate said:

You want everyone to believe they need to worry about Muslims. We don't. End of story.

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that you have found your verses you like to drag out to demonize people, you've done your research. But no Muslim I have ever met in this country, and I worked right across the 407 from Brampton, I've known quite a few, has resembled the verses you have cherry picked to drive your false generalizations and narrative. You never include anything like the following:

6 Quran Quotes That Teach Love, Tolerance and Freedom of Religion - Good News Network

Telling half the story is a whole lie.

Steve, you can act smug, you can hide behind your debate tactics, you can try to win a war of words...but there's no a single person reading this that doesn't see the bigotry and ignorance behind what you're saying. Now, that's up to you - we each own and nurture our own demons. But if you're looking for a concession here, let me save you a bunch of time: I reject everything you are saying. All of it. It's worthless. It doesn't reflect reality in Canada. Generalizing based off of the worst fringe ideologies, and antiquated, cherry picked religious dogma, is also a lie. Therefore you lie constantly.

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Number 4:

5:48 - "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute"

If you kept reading, it would only take 3 verses farther along (5:51) to see God clarifying his disdain for Christians and Jews - "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

Not much room for dispute here, is there? Christians, Jews, AND Muslims who don't heed God's command to keep away from them in friendship are ALL "a people unjust". The hatred that SOME Muslims feel for us comes straight from the Qur'an. Remember, we are all "the lowest of God's beasts". That's me AND you. Time to give your head a shake.

OlNate said:

You want everyone to believe they need to worry about Muslims. We don't. End of story.

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that you have found your verses you like to drag out to demonize people, you've done your research. But no Muslim I have ever met in this country, and I worked right across the 407 from Brampton, I've known quite a few, has resembled the verses you have cherry picked to drive your false generalizations and narrative. You never include anything like the following:

6 Quran Quotes That Teach Love, Tolerance and Freedom of Religion - Good News Network

Telling half the story is a whole lie.

Steve, you can act smug, you can hide behind your debate tactics, you can try to win a war of words...but there's no a single person reading this that doesn't see the bigotry and ignorance behind what you're saying. Now, that's up to you - we each own and nurture our own demons. But if you're looking for a concession here, let me save you a bunch of time: I reject everything you are saying. All of it. It's worthless. It doesn't reflect reality in Canada. Generalizing based off of the worst fringe ideologies, and antiquated, cherry picked religious dogma, is also a lie. Therefore you lie constantly.

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Read the verse below and truly ask yourself if it would appear in a book that's supposed to teach respect for other religions.

98:6 - Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun (polytheists) will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

OlNate said:

You want everyone to believe they need to worry about Muslims. We don't. End of story.

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that you have found your verses you like to drag out to demonize people, you've done your research. But no Muslim I have ever met in this country, and I worked right across the 407 from Brampton, I've known quite a few, has resembled the verses you have cherry picked to drive your false generalizations and narrative. You never include anything like the following:

6 Quran Quotes That Teach Love, Tolerance and Freedom of Religion - Good News Network

Telling half the story is a whole lie.

Steve, you can act smug, you can hide behind your debate tactics, you can try to win a war of words...but there's no a single person reading this that doesn't see the bigotry and ignorance behind what you're saying. Now, that's up to you - we each own and nurture our own demons. But if you're looking for a concession here, let me save you a bunch of time: I reject everything you are saying. All of it. It's worthless. It doesn't reflect reality in Canada. Generalizing based off of the worst fringe ideologies, and antiquated, cherry picked religious dogma, is also a lie. Therefore you lie constantly.

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I've got a little while before my tee time, so I thought it would be fun to pile on a little more. So, further to this spectacular lie - “There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256), I'd like you to consider this. The Qur'an has 6,236 verses, and thousands of them are dedicated to telling Muslims EXACTLY what to do and think. "God" compels Muslims with regard to:

- Belief - Follow the 5 pillars (how more basic can you get).
- Food - Forbidden to you are ....
- Clothing - Dress modestly.
- Marriage - Who you can marry.
- Wives - How to treat women you divorce depending on whether they've reached puberty (think about that for a minute), menopause, and everything in between.
- Sex - Who you can have sex with (captives are fair game).
- War - "Go forth and fight in the cause of God".
- War booty - How much you can keep, and how much to give to the community.
- Association - Do not be friends with non-Muslims, including your own family.
- Speech "Say not trinity", Saying God has a son is blasphemy.
- Hell - Dozens (perhaps hundreds) of verses warn Muslims that not following "God's" directives to his liking could leave them spending eternity in Hell with all the non-Muslims.

That's just off the top of my head (insert beheading joke here). Islam is ENTIRELY about compulsion.

stevecanuck said:

I've got a little while before my tee time, so I thought it would be fun to pile on a little more. So, further to this spectacular lie - “There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256), I'd like you to consider this. The Qur'an has 6,236 verses, and thousands of them are dedicated to telling Muslims EXACTLY what to do and think. "God" compels Muslims with regard to:

- Belief - Follow the 5 pillars (how more basic can you get).
- Food - Forbidden to you are ....
- Clothing - Dress modestly.
- Marriage - Who you can marry.
- Wives - How to treat women you divorce depending on whether they've reached puberty (think about that for a minute), menopause, and everything in between.
- Sex - Who you can have sex with (captives are fair game).
- War - "Go forth and fight in the cause of God".
- War booty - How much you can keep, and how much to give to the community.
- Association - Do not be friends with non-Muslims, including your own family.
- Speech "Say not trinity", Saying God has a son is blasphemy.
- Hell - Dozens (perhaps hundreds) of verses warn Muslims that not following "God's" directives to his liking could leave them spending eternity in Hell with all the non-Muslims.

That's just off the top of my head (insert beheading joke here). Islam is ENTIRELY about compulsion.

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Bud! Get help! Seriously! You're taking years off your life with all this hate. Smoke a joint, listen to some happy music, and get on with your life.

And EVERY religion is about compulsion, ffs...

Stop this, man... Hope you had a good round... Dang.

OlNate said:

Bud! Get help! Seriously! You're taking years off your life with all this hate. Smoke a joint, listen to some happy music, and get on with your life.

And EVERY religion is about compulsion, ffs...

Stop this, man... Hope you had a good round... Dang.

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If you don't want to get thoroughly rebutted, don't make posts you can't defend.

stevecanuck said:

If you don't want to get thoroughly rebutted, don't make posts you can't defend.

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stevecanuck:

There were no Canadians and by extension no Canadian Muslims when the Qur'an was being recorded. OlNate is talking about Canadian Muslims today and you are rebutting with scriptural verses written almost 1500 years ago. Your rebuttal depends on Canadian Muslims subscribing to the fundamentalism which makes these verses powerful in the reader's heart. But that fundamentalism is almost completely absent from modern Canadian society. So your rebuttals are for the most part both scholarly and irrelevant to the case which OlNate is making.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

stevecanuck:

....Your rebuttal depends on Canadian Muslims subscribing to the fundamentalism which makes these verses powerful in the reader's heart....

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There you go. You get it. Thank you, and we have had several examples of just that. Just ask Cpl Nathan Cirillo's widow. I started a thread in the Theology section today. Here's a cut and paste of one of my posts:

Watch the first minute of this video, and you'll see the problem: Toronto man pleads guilty to trying to join ISIS | Globalnews.ca

Hakimzadah's lawyer said of his client's beliefs that lead to his desire to join ISIS, "If it's not something that he learned from his family, where did he learn it from, and what confidence can we have that he can be deradicalized if we don't know what the cause of his radicalization was?"

That statement demonstrates utter capitulation to politically correct fascism. If we can't even discuss the possibility that Islamic jihad comes from Islamic scripture, then what hope is there for stopping it from spreading?

Evilroddy said:

stevecanuck:

So your rebuttals are for the most part both scholarly and irrelevant to the case which OlNate is making.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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I got to thinking again about the last sentence of your post, because that really isn't what Nate's on about. He tried to rebut my claim that Islam is intolerant, and I showed him in no uncertain terms that his link was pure BS. I have over 400 quotes from the Qur'an teed up and ready to go if he wants to doubt me further.

stevecanuck said:

There you go. You get it. Thank you, and we have had several examples of just that. Just ask Cpl Nathan Cirillo's widow. I started a thread in the Theology section today. Here's a cut and paste of one of my posts:

Watch the first minute of this video, and you'll see the problem: Toronto man pleads guilty to trying to join ISIS | Globalnews.ca

Hakimzadah's lawyer said of his client's beliefs that lead to his desire to join ISIS, "If it's not something that he learned from his family, where did he learn it from, and what confidence can we have that he can be deradicalized if we don't know what the cause of his radicalization was?"

That statement demonstrates utter capitulation to politically correct fascism. If we can't even discuss the possibility that Islamic jihad comes from Islamic scripture, then what hope is there for stopping it from spreading?

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Stevecanuck:

Thank you for quoting only part of my quote in order to seemingly change the meaning of what I said.

Acts, not thoughts or beliefs are the stuff of terrorism as terrorism is a tactic and not a state of mind; so your argument in this case is futile. We can no more police what Muslims believe and think than we can police what radical capitalists believe and think when those capitalists, driven by their insatiable greed, scheme to do dreadful things to others, in the name of profit instead of the prophet. We do not have thought/belief police yet and I hope we never will. You must accept that there will always be forces outside of your or any free society's control and there will always be risk. No one is or can be in full control of a free society.

Finally, you are behaving like the terrorists' midwife and wet-nurse, helping to birth and nourish the fear and distrust/paranoia which the terrorists try to sow in us in order to change our liberal democratic societies into oppressive and freedom stifling security and surveillance states. Your fear-mongering is in effect using fear of Muslims to effect a political change here in Canada and that is precariously close to the definition of terrorism. So consider yourself as a force-multiplier for the otherwise limited damage which terrorist acts can do to us here and in that light perhaps you will reconsider what you're doing on this forum and why you're doing it. A wise man once said that the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself. Fear is the blinder of eyes, the freezer of hearts, the disabled of compassion and the mind-killer, which makes free folk into slaves and free societies into open-air prisons. I will not live in your paranoid panopticon; nor will I put my fellow Canadians into a real or virtual gulag because they are Muslims.

Cheers pending.
Evilroddy.

stevecanuck said:

I got to thinking again about the last sentence of your post, because that really isn't what Nate's on about. He tried to rebut my claim that Islam is intolerant, and I showed him in no uncertain terms that his link was pure BS. I have over 400 quotes from the Qur'an teed up and ready to go if he wants to doubt me further.

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Stevecanuck:

Modern 21st Canada and 400 cherry-picked, ancient 6th Century quotes cited to demonise a whole faith and its followers almost 1500 years after the fact. Rather than digging through the Qur'an for dirt why not go to some of the social events put on by your local mosques and see what normal Canadian Muslims and their families are like in the 21st Century?

Cheers still pending.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

Stevecanuck:

Thank you for quoting only part of my quote in order to seemingly change the meaning of what I said.

Acts, not thoughts or beliefs are the stuff of terrorism as terrorism is a tactic and not a state of mind; so your argument in this case is futile.

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No, beliefs are what lead to acts, and we don't even have to be talking about Islam to realize that.

We can no more police what Muslims believe and think than we can police what radical capitalists believe and think when those capitalists, driven by their insatiable greed, scheme to do dreadful things to others, in the name of profit instead of the prophet.

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Not sure what that was.

We do not have thought/belief police yet and I hope we never will.

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M-103 is first base. We are one big act of violence against a Muslim target from having just that.

You must accept that there will always be forces outside of your or any free society's control and there will always be risk. No one is or can be in full control of a free society.

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Again, not sure what you're getting at.

Finally, you are behaving like the terrorists' midwife and wet-nurse, helping to birth and nourish the fear and distrust/paranoia which the terrorists try to sow in us in order to change our liberal democratic societies into oppressive and freedom stifling security and surveillance states.

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Nope, just explaining where the hate comes from. It's written in plain Arabic for all to see. I don't make up a single thing. I merely quote the qur'an.

Your fear-mongering is in effect using fear of Muslims to effect a political change here in Canada and that is precariously close to the definition of terrorism. So consider yourself as a force-multiplier for the otherwise limited damage which terrorist acts can do to us here and in that light perhaps you will reconsider what you're doing on this forum and why you're doing it. A wise man once said that the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself. Fear is the blinder of eyes, the freezer of hearts, the disabled of compassion and the mind-killer, which makes free folk into slaves and free societies into open-air prisons. I will not live in your paranoid panopticon; nor will I put my fellow Canadians into a real or virtual gulag because they are Muslims.

Cheers pending.
Evilroddy.

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There are Muslims trying to change our way of life. Some of them use terrorism. I know where those thoughts come from because I've spent the last couple of decades reading the source. "Fight the infidels" is what is written, and "Fight the infidels" is what some Muslims have decided to do. No amount of denial will ever change that simple fact. Ever.

stevecanuck said:

If you don't want to get thoroughly rebutted, don't make posts you can't defend.

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lol..."thoroughly rebutted"? All you're doing is confirming my allegation that you are a raging Islamophobe.

Anyway, in case you haven't noticed, you've lost your audience...there's just too much wrong with everything you're saying, and too little interest on my part to fix you. Go on with your hateful self, if that's what makes you happy. You're in a shrinking minority, and basically harmless, with very little impact potential indeed. :shrug:

OlNate said:

lol..."thoroughly rebutted"? All you're doing is confirming my allegation that you are a raging Islamophobe.

Anyway, in case you haven't noticed, you've lost your audience...there's just too much wrong with everything you're saying, and too little interest on my part to fix you. Go on with your hateful self, if that's what makes you happy. You're in a shrinking minority, and basically harmless, with very little impact potential indeed. :shrug:

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And trolling from someone who knows zero about Islam is supposed to concern me why exactly?

stevecanuck said:

And trolling from someone who knows zero about Islam is supposed to concern me why exactly?

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Oh, hey, ya, really good point, you most certainly got me with this one.

Can we be done now?

OlNate said:

Oh, hey, ya, really good point, you most certainly got me with this one.

Can we be done now?

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That's up to you. You're welcome to stick around and learn something. Isn't that what life should be all about?

OlNate said:

lol..."thoroughly rebutted"? All you're doing is confirming my allegation that you are a raging Islamophobe.

Anyway, in case you haven't noticed, you've lost your audience...there's just too much wrong with everything you're saying, and too little interest on my part to fix you. Go on with your hateful self, if that's what makes you happy. You're in a shrinking minority, and basically harmless, with very little impact potential indeed. :shrug:

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So there we have any it; and all criticism of Islam, no matter how factually based, is met with insults. You make no attempt to engage in the discussion, merely hurl wllfully ignorant abuse. I think that is shameful.

Sweden said:

So there we have any it; and all criticism of Islam, no matter how factually based, is met with insults. You make no attempt to engage in the discussion, merely hurl wllfully ignorant abuse. I think that is shameful.

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Actually, what "we have" is one guy stepping into a conversation that's been going on for months through numerous threads, thinking he knows enough to pass judgement, and embarrassing himself in the process. I have heard Steve out, I have done my own research on his claims, we have exchanged numerous links supporting our points of view, and so far he has been unable to convince me to join him in his hysterical fear of Islam. :shrug:

Nice try, though... :lol:

stevecanuck said:

That's up to you. You're welcome to stick around and learn something. Isn't that what life should be all about?

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I think I've received as much "learning" as I will from you, Steve. I'm sorry, but when you research with an agenda, then everything you read will either support your claim or be rejected as unimportant or an outlier. You have dismissed facts, links, quotes, real world experience, statistics, and common sense, all to remain in your little bubble of "justified" hate. I don't deny a single thing you post, in terms of the quotes. I just think the conclusions you arrive at are preposterous and demented and hypocritical.

I think I'll pass, man.

OlNate said:

Actually, what "we have" is one guy stepping into a conversation that's been going on for months through numerous threads, thinking he knows enough to pass judgement, and embarrassing himself in the process. I have heard Steve out, I have done my own research on his claims, we have exchanged numerous links supporting our points of view, and so far he has been unable to convince me to join him in his hysterical fear of Islam. :shrug:

Nice try, though... :lol:

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All the hysteria comes from you. We who criticize Islam do so calmly and reasonably, carefully explaining why and not indulging in personal abuse. We have every right to exericise our judgement which is every bit as valid as anyone else's.

To avoid any misunderstanding: I judge Islam to be a totalitarian philosophy, legal system and political programme entirely at odds with the tolerant secular society developed over the last three hundred years in the West. Where Islam rules liberty diminishes or even disappears. I say this without any hope of persuading you to adopt my view. Your blind support of this odious belief system is not amenabke to reason.

OlNate said:

I think I've received as much "learning" as I will from you, Steve. I'm sorry, but when you research with an agenda, then everything you read will either support your claim or be rejected as unimportant or an outlier. You have dismissed facts, links, quotes, real world experience, statistics, and common sense, all to remain in your little bubble of "justified" hate. I don't deny a single thing you post, in terms of the quotes. I just think the conclusions you arrive at are preposterous and demented and hypocritical.

I think I'll pass, man.

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You mean like when you posted those 6 verses that "prove" Islam is intolerant?

If you don't deny that "God is the enemy of infidels" is in the Qur'an, then how do you interpret it?

OlNate said:

You have dismissed ... links,...

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You don't seem to know the difference between 'dismissed' and 'rebutted'.

I looked at your 6 verses links and addressed it in great detail. That's what one does in a proper debate. Now it's your turn to either rebut my rebuttal or admit I'm right. Again - proper debate procedure.

stevecanuck said:

You don't seem to know the difference between 'dismissed' and 'rebutted'.

I looked at your 6 verses links and addressed it in great detail. That's what one does in a proper debate. Now it's your turn to either rebut my rebuttal or admit I'm right. Again - proper debate procedure.

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Meh...no thanks. The only point of giving you those 6 verses is that it takes 5 seconds of Google searching to prove you're lying by omission. I don't care what you personally think about Islam, I'm not trying to change your mind. Think of it like seeing a weed amongst the garden...you don't care overly about the weed, you just want to neutralize it before it spreads. That's what this is.

If I saw even a fraction of the things you claim Islam creates in society, I would take you more seriously. But I don't. So I don't. :shrug: Let's find other things to talk seriously about, Steve.

OlNate said:

Meh...no thanks. The only point of giving you those 6 verses is that it takes 5 seconds of Google searching to prove you're lying by omission.

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Not even close. I rebutted those verses. You accuse me of omission, then you provide a link wherein the author does exactly that. That makes you a hypocrite.