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Thread: [W:99]Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

  1. #121
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    Re: [W:99]Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz62 View Post
    Backpaddle backpeddle backpeddle...
    Quebec used the notwithstanding clause for the reason it was intended, Ford is not. Ford wants to use it if he is challenged, no matter what.
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    Re: [W:99]Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    Quebec used the notwithstanding clause for the reason it was intended, Ford is not. Ford wants to use it if he is challenged, no matter what.
    And you know this because...?
    Has it occurred to you that he honestly believes his mandate is more important than partisan judges?

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    Re: [W:99]Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz62 View Post
    And you know this because...?
    Has it occurred to you that he honestly believes his mandate is more important than partisan judges?
    He never had a mandate for that it was never mentioned until after he was elected. The notwithstanding clause is not to be used for every piece of legislation that might be challenged it is supposed to be for things deemed extremely important to that province, usually culture, and should be used as only in very rarely, it is the nuclear option.
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    Re: Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    The number of constituents is very relevant, the representatives need to represent an area of people with common interests and in municipalities that number is a lot lower than for things like parliament. Do you think small municipalities should have councils? Following your logic there shouldn't even be a council, just an all powerful mayor representing all of Toronto. Do you not believe that federal ridings should be redrawn with population growth? Do you not believe that wards or electoral districts should just cover a set area and not population?
    Again, a fundamental misrepresentation of the role of a councilor, in my view, and the role of any politician for that matter. A politician at any level of government is not the servant of individual constituents but representative of the collection of constituents. It is impossible for any politician to represent the interests of each and every constituent, regardless of the level of government, making the number of constituents irrelevant to the job that politician was elected to perform. It is the role of the bureaucracy to serve the needs of individual constituents and the role of the politicians to ensure their is sufficient bureaucracy in place and that the bureaucracy operates according to the laws and policy the politicians, as a government, put in place from time to time. The politician, on issues of general importance to the public at large, can intervene in various ways to grease that relationship, but it is not their role to function as a bureaucrat.

    That's the problem with most city councilors and most politicians in general. They lack the intelligence and willpower to perform the duty they were elected to perform and thus try to micromanage the everyday activities of the bureaucrat. They can't get their heads around the big issues, the policies they need to review and enact but they are great at sticking their noses in to micromanage where they're neither welcomed nor needed. They believe the office they hold gives them personal power where no personal power really exists and it is the following of this road that leads many a politician into corruption and conflicts of interest.

    As with most things, there is balance and the need for a diversity of opinions in order to generate good policy and good government. Yes, every municipality needs a number of councilors in order to ensure a wealth of ideas and a level of accountability and scrutiny. What isn't needed is endless debate and obstruction - that's why the move to reduce the number of councilors at city hall in Toronto is needed and welcomed by many citizens of Toronto.
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  5. #125
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    Re: [W:99]Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    1. They did not appeal before the threats of using the notwithstanding clause, that was within hours of the judges new rulings and the articles published at the time stated as such.

    2. Quebec used it to protest, not to actually pass legislation in violation of charter rights. They did pass a sign law but that is what the notwithstanding clause is for, not to ram through whatever legislation you want like Ford says he will. That law was also later brought in line with the charter.

    3. The Ford government though its actions has shown they do not care about the charter, as they said they will use the notwithstanding clause if they are ever challenged on anything. And the fact he threatened to use it to pass municipal reform is ridiculous. Just like how Quebec using it for everything to protest was also widely seen as misuse even though they never actually passed charter violating legislation.

    So, Quebec using the notwithstanding clause as a "protest" is okay, but Ontario using the notwithstanding clause as a "protest" is not okay. Got it. In other words, if you support the ruling of the courts the use of the notwithstanding clause is bad, but if you don't support the ruling of the courts the use of the notwithstanding clause is super and reasonable.

    What you fail to appreciate or simply wish to ignore, is that enacting the notwithstanding clause is, by its very nature, a move to bypass individual charter rights in favour of the general rights of the collective population with the understanding that the bypass is temporary and must be revisited in four years or it lapses. That allows the government to act temporarily and the electorate to pass judgement on that action at the next election. If you want to blame anyone for the "violation" of charter rights, you need to blame Pierre Trudeau, the ten Provincial Premiers and two territorial governments at the time for including the notwithstanding clause in the Charter of Rights upon its enactment decades ago. It is disingenuous of many of the politicians at the time who okayed the clause now claiming to be outraged at its use. Nothing Premier Ford and his government did was illegal or immoral or inappropriate.

    Finally, Premier Ford did not say he would use the provision "if they are ever challenged on anything". That's your over the top interpretation. What he did say is that he wouldn't be afraid to use it again if judicial activists, such as in this case, invented law from the bench in order to thwart the will of Parliament. I say it's about time!!
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  6. #126
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    Re: [W:99]Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz62 View Post
    And you know this because...?
    Has it occurred to you that he honestly believes his mandate is more important than partisan judges?
    Mandate? Was he elected Premier of Toronto? What business has the Premier of Ontario involving himself in Toronto civic politics anyway?
    He who knows the least obeys the best.

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    Re: [W:99]Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    He never had a mandate for that it was never mentioned until after he was elected. The notwithstanding clause is not to be used for every piece of legislation that might be challenged it is supposed to be for things deemed extremely important to that province, usually culture, and should be used as only in very rarely, it is the nuclear option.
    Well it hasn't been used so you can take a deep breath and calm down.
    The court of appeals decided the original judge made a partisan decision and over ruled it.

    Than you for participating.

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    Re: [W:99]Doug Ford to invoke notwithstanding clause to override judge’s Toronto council ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Mandate? Was he elected Premier of Toronto? What business has the Premier of Ontario involving himself in Toronto civic politics anyway?
    I believe the provincial government has the power to do what they've done...hence they've done what they have done.

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