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Children shot at Toronto Playground

Two innocent defenseless little girls? I hope they find this scum.
 
According to the article, the girls were not the intended target. Perhaps the Intended target can shed some light on who might be after him and why.
 
Sounds like a typical gang drive-by. They hit everything but the target. Happened a lot in L.A. when I was growing up there.
 

Sadly, one of a rash of recent gun crimes in my city.

We need to start thinking about getting tough on offenses committed with a gun because it seems about an impossible task to adequately secure the border with the US where virtually all of the crime guns come from; again, maybe we should be the ones building the wall: American guns are killing our neighbors in Canada and Mexico

LA Times said:
A new report from the Center for American Progress analyzed data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) and found that 70% of the crime guns recovered and traced in Mexico, and 98% of crime guns in Canada originate in the U.S.

I refuse to accept a normalization of this kind of violence as is the case in the States.
 
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Sadly, one of a rash of recent gun crimes in my city.

We need to start thinking about getting tough on offenses committed with a gun because it seems about an impossible task to adequately secure the border with the US where virtually all of the crime guns come from; again, maybe we should be the ones building the wall: American guns are killing our neighbors in Canada and Mexico



I refuse to accept a normalization of this kind of violence as is the case in the States.

you ought to do some further studying on tracing and what it means
 
you ought to do some further studying on tracing and what it means

If you have any evidence to contradict that 98% figure I'm more than willing to hear it out.
 
If you have any evidence to contradict that 98% figure I'm more than willing to hear it out.

you miss the point-they don't trace stuff they know didn't come from the USA.
 
you miss the point-they don't trace stuff they know didn't come from the USA.

What is the point precisely? Is it that those figures omit most of the non-US sourced guns (I assume) or that they don't bother attributing the source of the 2% residual which is largely irrelevant at this point given its presently tiny proportion?
 
My heart goes out to those parents.


If anyone ever hurt my little girl...I...would...seriously...**** them up. Probably end up in jail.
 

Interesting.

So what you're actually saying is that we don't know the exact % of US sourced crime guns for sure because of the fact that these stats are only concerned with the actual guns submitted and traced by the ATF.

I do believe though that, per statistical sampling, the actual % is probably pretty close however. Maybe it's not 98%, but even 90, 80, 70% would be far too high. I'll also look into the study's data (the one that purported 98%) and the total crime gun figures.

Bottom line is keeping guns out of criminal hands will prove challenging at the least and probably needs to be reinforced with more effective dissuasion.
 
Interesting.

So what you're actually saying is that we don't know the exact % of crime guns for sure because of the fact that these stats are only concerned with the actual guns submitted and traced by the ATF.

I do believe though that, per statistical sampling, the actual % is probably pretty close however. Maybe it's not 98%, but even 90, 80, 70% would be far too high. I'll also look into the study's data (the one that purported 98%) and the total crime gun figures.

Bottom line is keeping guns out of criminal hands will prove challenging at the least and probably needs to be reinforced with more effective dissuasion.

it makes sense that a country that has the longest border with Canada (and canada has a minuscule arms industry-Para-Ord for example moved from Canada to North Carolina IIRC) and I doubt Inglis (made copies of the BHP for Canada during WWII) even exists any more would be the source of most of the weapons LEGALLY and ILLEGALLY owned. and I say DUH. but the fact is-Mexican drug cartels have lots of the stuff the Iron Curtain dumped on the world market after the wall came down and some nations chose to join the west. so when the Mexican police (who aren't on the take) find a firearm that is obviously say Russian or Chinese, Bulgarian and is fully automatic, they know it could not have originated from the USA and its not submitted to USA authorities for tracing. same with GLOCKS, Berettas CZs etc that don't have USA import marks. BTW the USA gives/sells Mexican authorities tons of guns, many of them end up in Cartel hands because the cops and soldiers down there often sell them to the cartel
 
it makes sense that a country that has the longest border with Canada (and canada has a minuscule arms industry-Para-Ord for example moved from Canada to North Carolina IIRC) and I doubt Inglis (made copies of the BHP for Canada during WWII) even exists any more would be the source of most of the weapons LEGALLY and ILLEGALLY owned. and I say DUH. but the fact is-Mexican drug cartels have lots of the stuff the Iron Curtain dumped on the world market after the wall came down and some nations chose to join the west. so when the Mexican police (who aren't on the take) find a firearm that is obviously say Russian or Chinese, Bulgarian and is fully automatic, they know it could not have originated from the USA and its not submitted to USA authorities for tracing. same with GLOCKS, Berettas CZs etc that don't have USA import marks. BTW the USA gives/sells Mexican authorities tons of guns, many of them end up in Cartel hands because the cops and soldiers down there often sell them to the cartel

Yeah, I mean that's the bottom line: the border is pourous and unsecured, and all evidence points to the vast, vast majority originating from said pourous, long border, and there isn't much that would undermine the ATF's data as a reliable statistical sample unlike in the case of say Mexico.

So where do we go from here?

I don't believe in arming everyone (though I think our prohibition on non-lethals like mace/tasers is absurd) ; I don't want to go that route as keeping Canada relatively gun free (barring long arms which are about exclusive to the countryside) has worked well at keeping gun crime low, and certainly no wall is being built any time soon (nor would I advocate as much); the only options left, beyond doing what we can to fortify the borders against gun running, is to enact relatively ineffectual gun drives for prohibited weapons and go the dissuasion route by levying particularly severe penalties on people caught with them/using them in the mold of the UK.

Hopefully the nationwide legalization of marijuana will work to ultimately squeeze its illegal production given that it's routinely exchanged for weapons.
 
What is the point precisely? Is it that those figures omit most of the non-US sourced guns (I assume) or that they don't bother attributing the source of the 2% residual which is largely irrelevant at this point given its presently tiny proportion?

Well I don't know what the specifics are in Canada, but in Mexico (because this was a political controversy some time ago) there was a claim 70% of Mexican crime guns came from the US, it was based off of ATF trace data, except when you looked into the study, what happened was that only 30% of the crime guns recovered by Mexican Authorities were submitted to US BATF for tracing, and out of those 70% traced to the US. so a large number of the guns recovered were not submitted for tracing, either because they weren't US Manufacture, or because they had been legally imported for Mexican retailers, or stolen from Mexican government arsenals (or the arsenals of neighboring countries) etc.
 
Well I don't know what the specifics are in Canada, but in Mexico (because this was a political controversy some time ago) there was a claim 70% of Mexican crime guns came from the US, it was based off of ATF trace data, except when you looked into the study, what happened was that only 30% of the crime guns recovered by Mexican Authorities were submitted to US BATF for tracing, and out of those 70% traced to the US. so a large number of the guns recovered were not submitted for tracing, either because they weren't US Manufacture, or because they had been legally imported for Mexican retailers, or stolen from Mexican government arsenals (or the arsenals of neighboring countries) etc.

during the clinton administration, the ATF engaged in what was held to be an improper and illegal program called "forward trace". The ATF would go to gunstores and root though the 4473 forms and "trace" "assault style firearms".

no probable cause, no reported crime. But then the Clintonistas claimed to congress that "most of the guns traced by the ATF" were "assault weapons
 
Well I don't know what the specifics are in Canada, but in Mexico (because this was a political controversy some time ago) there was a claim 70% of Mexican crime guns came from the US, it was based off of ATF trace data, except when you looked into the study, what happened was that only 30% of the crime guns recovered by Mexican Authorities were submitted to US BATF for tracing, and out of those 70% traced to the US. so a large number of the guns recovered were not submitted for tracing, either because they weren't US Manufacture, or because they had been legally imported for Mexican retailers, or stolen from Mexican government arsenals (or the arsenals of neighboring countries) etc.

I understand this.

What I'm saying is that the % sourcing per the ATF in relation to Canada is probably accurate given the size of the sample (30% by the way is a pretty huge sample size in terms of statistics and predictive power, assuming a random/mostly random selection; I assume this number is even larger for Canada; I need to get the total Canadian crime gun count for 2016) , and the lack of anything notable that would undermine the sample's integrity.
 
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