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NAFTA negotiations

Grand Mal

Grand Mal

Russian warship, go f*** yourself!
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Trump says he can win the negotiation.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4226253/trump-nafta-canada-difficult/

Negotiating in good faith? Saying he can 'win', threats of tariffs, why do we bother? Let's just go back to how it was before Reagan and Mulroney signed the Canada-US Free Trade Pact. Everything on the open market. Including oil. We have agreements in place with Europe and some of Asia and negotiations underway with Argentina, Brasil, Paraguay and Uruguay. Let's just suck it up and go free market with the US.
Trump doesn't seem to understand that he's not selling anything, he's allowing access to his market. That means he needs international trade more than any of his trading partners, especially a trading partner who's selling things the world needs.
 
Grand Mal said:
Trump says he can win the negotiation.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4226253/trump-nafta-canada-difficult/

Negotiating in good faith? Saying he can 'win', threats of tariffs, why do we bother? Let's just go back to how it was before Reagan and Mulroney signed the Canada-US Free Trade Pact. Everything on the open market. Including oil. We have agreements in place with Europe and some of Asia and negotiations underway with Argentina, Brasil, Paraguay and Uruguay. Let's just suck it up and go free market with the US.

Trump doesn't seem to understand that he's not selling anything, he's allowing access to his market. That means he needs international trade more than any of his trading partners, especially a trading partner who's selling things the world needs.
Click to expand...

The "win" attitude is characteristic of much that's wrong about damn near all things Trump does or aims to do. The "we/I can win" attitude is inherently avaricious, prideful and envious. Nothing good comes from one having that mindset.
 
Grand Mal said:
Trump says he can win the negotiation.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4226253/trump-nafta-canada-difficult/

Negotiating in good faith? Saying he can 'win', threats of tariffs, why do we bother? Let's just go back to how it was before Reagan and Mulroney signed the Canada-US Free Trade Pact. Everything on the open market. Including oil. We have agreements in place with Europe and some of Asia and negotiations underway with Argentina, Brasil, Paraguay and Uruguay. Let's just suck it up and go free market with the US.
Trump doesn't seem to understand that he's not selling anything, he's allowing access to his market. That means he needs international trade more than any of his trading partners, especially a trading partner who's selling things the world needs.
Click to expand...

It’s because both parties are supported by the same groups. Wall Street, The Business Roundtable, the Chamber of Commerce, the Koch brothers. All are driving U.S. multinational interests’ policies throughout, going back to President Clinton talking about China entering the world of nations and playing by the same rules as did Bush and Obama. The reality is our presidents and our congresses have allowed China to cheat us into the poor house, and pretended that they would see Jesus and play by the rules.

But the elites are doing just fine. Congress critters and their bipartisan buddies are nearly all multi millionaires. Multi nationalism also means multi party.
Who’s in your wallet? Who’s looking out for you?
 
Eyes Glaze Over.....I mean if the economic geniuses had any credibility at all...but they dont so we might as well be reading tea leaves.....
 
Canada and Mexico got screwed over by NAFTA and that's really what the renegotiations are about. The ongoing lumber dispute with Canada is one such example. The U.S. can injure Canada by blocking just one of its major products because Canada relies so heavily on U.S. trade. Yet NAFTA gives no real recourse to Canada for dealing with this.

Meanwhile U.S. companies are taking water and resources in droves at next to no cost. Nestle for example is draining entire water ways for bottled water for pennies. You think a Canadian company could do that to a U.S. water source? I'm very worried about the water aspect. If NAFTA is changed I hope it allows LESS foreign access to Canadian water and not more. The last thing I want to see is Canada's fresh water being drained to support ridiculously unsustainable places, like Las Vegas.

There are a lot of inequities that need to be addressed. I think Mexico's main concern is human resources. Their standard of living would be higher if they weren't beholden to NAFTA's current wording.

IMO NAFTA should just be scrapped and products should be negotiated on an individual basis. More work, but less room for economies getting violated. Of course it'll never happen. Neo-liberals want access to everything.
 
Grand Mal said:
Trump says he can win the negotiation.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4226253/trump-nafta-canada-difficult/

Negotiating in good faith? Saying he can 'win', threats of tariffs, why do we bother? Let's just go back to how it was before Reagan and Mulroney signed the Canada-US Free Trade Pact. Everything on the open market. Including oil. We have agreements in place with Europe and some of Asia and negotiations underway with Argentina, Brasil, Paraguay and Uruguay. Let's just suck it up and go free market with the US.
Trump doesn't seem to understand that he's not selling anything, he's allowing access to his market. That means he needs international trade more than any of his trading partners, especially a trading partner who's selling things the world needs.
Click to expand...

...yeah, I haven't quite seen a strong track record with him and his international policies.
 
chuckiechan said:
It’s because both parties are supported by the same groups. Wall Street, The Business Roundtable, the Chamber of Commerce, the Koch brothers. All are driving U.S. multinational interests’ policies throughout, going back to President Clinton talking about China entering the world of nations and playing by the same rules as did Bush and Obama. The reality is our presidents and our congresses have allowed China to cheat us into the poor house, and pretended that they would see Jesus and play by the rules.

But the elites are doing just fine. Congress critters and their bipartisan buddies are nearly all multi millionaires. Multi nationalism also means multi party.
Who’s in your wallet? Who’s looking out for you?
Click to expand...

How is any of this Canada's fault? Don't blame Canada for things US companies and politicans did. The whole right wing laissez faire ecomonic ideology the GOP has been pushing said companies should do whatever they can to maximize profits, so why wouldn't they screw over their workers to do it?
 
Grand Mal said:
Trump says he can win the negotiation.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4226253/trump-nafta-canada-difficult/

Negotiating in good faith? Saying he can 'win', threats of tariffs, why do we bother? Let's just go back to how it was before Reagan and Mulroney signed the Canada-US Free Trade Pact. Everything on the open market. Including oil. We have agreements in place with Europe and some of Asia and negotiations underway with Argentina, Brasil, Paraguay and Uruguay. Let's just suck it up and go free market with the US.
Trump doesn't seem to understand that he's not selling anything, he's allowing access to his market. That means he needs international trade more than any of his trading partners, especially a trading partner who's selling things the world needs.
Click to expand...

Grand Mal:

That is very dangerous thinking on our part. The US state and its supporting political and economic elites have deep pockets and powerful weapons which could be used to politically decapitate or break up Canada or to militarily occupy key resource-producing areas in what was once Canada if we denied the Americans our vital resources or tried to revolt against their dominance. If Canada tried to lead a Western Hemisphere revolt against US economic and political hegemony and "interests" in the Americas we would run headlong into a new Munroe Doctrine and find ourselves in American political and military cross-hairs in short order. Get too uppity and the political decapitation or outright Balkanisation of Canada by financial, political or military means might well follow soon afterwards.

Better to ride out the present "perfect storm" and bide our time until a more cooperative administration and congress replaces the neo-liberal (and dangerously neo-con) ideologues who now have a strangle-hold on power and hold sway in America. America is a waning commercial-military empire which is in decline these days and such wounded societal beasts are very dangerous creatures when confronted and challenged. Don't give the wounded and hungry, giant eagle any excuse to feast on beaver flesh because we foolish rodents dammed up the vital streams feeding declining American wealth. Let's chew sticks and watch for better opportunities rather than going out in a Rambo-rabid-rodent blaze of glory. The pond is deep even if the lodge is weak and we can thus weather the storm if we are careful I think.

Wait, watch, evaluate, calculate and exercise extreme prudence before antagonising the USA or any other global juggernaut like trans-polar Russia or China. We need them as much, if not more, than they need to tolerate us. The lessons of history are often tragic and humiliating for both the strong and the weak alike if they misstep, especially when predation replaces cooperation and mutualistic symbiosis in world affairs.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Grand Mal:

That is very dangerous thinking on our part. The US state and its supporting political and economic elites have deep pockets and powerful weapons which could be used to politically decapitate or break up Canada or to militarily occupy key resource-producing areas in what was once Canada if we denied the Americans our vital resources or tried to revolt against their dominance. If Canada tried to lead a Western Hemisphere revolt against US economic and political hegemony and "interests" in the Americas we would run headlong into a new Munroe Doctrine and find ourselves in American political and military cross-hairs in short order. Get too uppity and the political decapitation or outright Balkanisation of Canada by financial, political or military means might well follow soon afterwards.

Better to ride out the present "perfect storm" and bide our time until a more cooperative administration and congress replaces the neo-liberal (and dangerously neo-con) ideologues who now have a strangle-hold on power and hold sway in America. America is a waning commercial-military empire which is in decline these days and such wounded societal beasts are very dangerous creatures when confronted and challenged. Don't give the wounded and hungry, giant eagle any excuse to feast on beaver flesh because we foolish rodents dammed up the vital streams feeding declining American wealth. Let's chew sticks and watch for better opportunities rather than going out in a Rambo-rabid-rodent blaze of glory. The pond is deep even if the lodge is weak and we can thus weather the storm if we are careful I think.

Wait, watch, evaluate, calculate and exercise extreme prudence before antagonising the USA or any other global juggernaut like trans-polar Russia or China. We need them as much, if not more, than they need to tolerate us. The lessons of history are often tragic and humiliating for both the strong and the weak alike if they misstep, especially when predation replaces cooperation and mutualistic symbiosis in world affairs.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well, it's not one extreme or the other. Just walk away. Go back to the open-market model that existed pre-Reagan and Mulroney. Trump's propensity to placate his low-functioning voter base with protectionist measures will inevitably bite the US economy in the ass and when more intelligent heads are in place down south, maybe that'll be the time to take another look at NAFTA. He's trying to bully a route to 'winning' the negotiation and if I know anything about Liberal governments it's that they won't be at all interested in appeasing the White House. Even Stephen Harper wouldn't have sold Canada's interests out to satisfy an American bully.
We'll be fine. No need for kowtowing to a dimwitted megalomaniac.
 
Grand Mal said:
Yeah, well, it's not one extreme or the other. Just walk away. Go back to the open-market model that existed pre-Reagan and Mulroney. Trump's propensity to placate his low-functioning voter base with protectionist measures will inevitably bite the US economy in the ass and when more intelligent heads are in place down south, maybe that'll be the time to take another look at NAFTA. He's trying to bully a route to 'winning' the negotiation and if I know anything about Liberal governments it's that they won't be at all interested in appeasing the White House. Even Stephen Harper wouldn't have sold Canada's interests out to satisfy an American bully.
We'll be fine. No need for kowtowing to a dimwitted megalomaniac.
Click to expand...

Grand Mal:

It was the inclusion of the two words "Including oil.", as a separate sentence in your opening post which made me think that perhaps you were advocating resource denial as a policy option for Canada in its relations with the USA. If that was not your intention and my assumption was wrong then I stand corrected and clearly read more into your words than I should have. My apologies if I misinterpreted and misrepresented what you were saying. The rest of your post I agreed with and I was not advocating kowtowing or obsequious toadying to DJT but rather caution in confronting a very angry and powerful nation of 330 million people whose society is wobbling and teetering unpredictably like a slowing but still-spinning top wobbles before it falls over and crashes to a stop. We are seeing the first chaotic wobbles of spiral instability before the whole American system comes to a grinding, crashing halt or extended interruption, I predict.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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