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The Bully In The Sandbox?

tosca1

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Canada seems to be emerging as the bully, when it comes to Bombardier. Let's set aside Boeing for now.
Before Boeing, there was Brazil, who had a complaint against Bombardier.


Canada's response?


At the height of the previous dispute, the Canadian government threatened to use hundreds of millions of dollars of trade sanctions against Brazil for its use of cut-rate loans to Embraer SA, which is Bombardier's direct competitor in the global aerospace market.
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...33962839/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&


Imagine that.
 
Aren't you tried of bailing Bombardier?
What's so special about Bombardier.....that taxpayers are continually fleeced to carry its burden?



Brazil’s WTO challenge over aid to Bombardier is good for the aviation market

In 2016 alone, the Canadian government, through the province of Quebec, injected more than $2.5-billion into Bombardier, including $1-billion directly into its C Series program, and $1.5-billion funnelled through the company's transportation unit. Adding to the support it has already received, $372.5-million (Canadian) has been committed by the federal government, partially directed into the C Series program. As a result, Bombardier offered its aircraft to international customers at a price far below the real cost, and ultimately at the expense of Canadian taxpayers.

WTO consultations will ensure that Canada provides Brazil with the required information regarding subsidies provided to Bombardier. This is an important first step toward correcting significant market distortions generated by these subsidies, and re-establishing a level playing field in the commercial aviation market.
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/re...34010501/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&


If it can't manage to survive on its own (after all the bail out it got).....then it's better to let it die.





Bombardier exploring options for aerospace businesses, including sale: Bloomberg
Bombardier exploring options for aerospace businesses, including sale: Bloomberg - Business - CBC News

Whoever buys it........they should change the name.
 
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Bombardier is a piece of ****, grossly and ineptly mismanaged company which I have no love for (clearly) that revels in moral hazard, government bailout and its own contemptible mediocrity; it should be left to succeed or fail (and almost certainly the latter) on its own.
 
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Canada seems to be emerging as the bully, when it comes to Bombardier. Let's set aside Boeing for now.
Before Boeing, there was Brazil, who had a complaint against Bombardier.


Canada's response?



https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...33962839/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&


Imagine that.

Its hard to set aside Boeing, when they seem to want to stop Bombardier form their own game.

Here is the fact of the matter, when it comes to aerospace, every company is subsidized, be it American, Canadian or European, everyone is a hypocrite here. Its hard to expect Canada stop subsidize Bombardier, if France will subsidize Airbus and the US will subsidize Boeing, no one has clean hands here.

But hey I guess Quebec just subsidized some manufacturing jobs in Alabama, I guess that's good for Alabama, though at this point how much return will the Canadian government see on this investment? Maybe not enough to justify the subsidies, you hope that some jobs would stay in Canada, but we will see how the final deal shakes out.

Even though Bombardier screwed up with a lot of its bad decisions, Boeing should still be punished for this stunt, I hope the UK and Canada still cancel their deals with Boeing.

Are you okay with Boeing being a bully, because I will admit that Bombardier trying that stunt with Brazil is scummy.
 
From 2000-2015 Boeing got $13.4-billion in grants and tax breaks from the State of Washington and the US Federal government – that's about five times as much as Bombardier's $2.6 billion in grants/subsidies, loan guarantees and tax breaks. And now Boeing is crying "no fair!" and whining to the WTO because Bombardier has received far fewer billions of dollars in federal and provincial assistance, than Boeing since 2008 for Bombardier's C-Series jet. Me thinks the pot is calling out the kettle in this case. This is pure protectionism.

Cheers.
Evilrody.
 
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From 2000-2015 Boeing got $13.4-billion in grants and tax breaks from the State of Washington and the US Federal government – that's about five times as much as Bombardier's $2.6 billion in grants/subsidies, loan guarantees and tax breaks. And now Boeing is crying "no fair!" and whining to the WTO because Bombardier has received far fewer billions of dollars in federal and provincial assistance, than Boeing since 2008 for Bombardier's C-Series jet. Me thinks the pot is calling out the kettle in this case. This is pure protectionism.

Cheers.
Evilrody.


If that's the case.....so why don't we use that for an argument? It's a matter of illegalities, isn't it?
And why isn't Boeing facing any WTO complaints?


In 2017 the WTO confirmed that Boeing had complied with virtually all of its rulings in this case.
Boeing: Facts About Subsidies to Airbus
 
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By the looks of it, Airbus got the same WTO problems!

The WTO Decision against European Subsidies

In June of 2010 the WTO ruled in favor of the United States on 80% of the total alleged subsidy amounts, and in May of 2011 a WTO appellate panel upheld all of the key findings of the earlier panel.

The WTO ruled that Airbus had received $18 billion of illegal subsidies, including $15 billion of launch aid. Airbus-sponsor governments were given until December of 2011 to remove the harmful effects of all illegal subsidies.

On September 22, 2016, the WTO confirmed the European governments not only failed to meet the compliance deadline to remedy $17 billion worth of past subsidies provided to Airbus, but that an additional $5 billion in illegal launch aid has since been provided to support the A350.

In a last ditch effort, the EU has appealed that ruling.

Once the appellate process concludes later this year, the USG expects to be in a position to initiate the WTO process for imposing tariffs on European exports to the United States to mitigate these violations.
Boeing: Facts About Subsidies to Airbus
 
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Canada a bully for looking after our own interests? Mmm...not sure that qualifies, unless we're saying every country is a bully.

As for Bombardier...I mean...someone else pointed out that pretty much all plane manufacturers are subsidized one way or another, and it's a lot of jobs...I'm not in love with them, but if that's the common practice I can't really fault us for doing the same thing. Besides, I think it's smart for a nation to have the ability to produce air craft independent of other nations.
 
Canada a bully for looking after our own interests? Mmm...not sure that qualifies, unless we're saying every country is a bully.

As for Bombardier...I mean...someone else pointed out that pretty much all plane manufacturers are subsidized one way or another, and it's a lot of jobs...I'm not in love with them, but if that's the common practice I can't really fault us for doing the same thing. Besides, I think it's smart for a nation to have the ability to produce air craft independent of other nations.

Did you read how we threatened Brazil?

There must be some parameters on how much you can and how you subsidize. Otherwise, why did the WTO clear Boeing? Read my posts.
 
Did you read how we threatened Brazil?

There must be some parameters on how much you can and how you subsidize. Otherwise, why did the WTO clear Boeing? Read my posts.

Brazil is in our top 15 trade partners, so I'm thinking we probably made up after that. Countries threaten each other all the time on the economic front...standard business procedure - look at what we're going through over NAFTA, and the US is by far our biggest trade partner.

I don't think there technically are parameters on how much our government can subsidize. They answer for it at election time, and if it's a big enough deal, we can vote them out. But I would remind you that Bombardier received subsidies during the Harper years as well, so this is hardly a partisan issue.

I don't totally disagree with you, it is frustrating, but again, I think it's important for us to have the ability to produce our own aircraft if need be, and subsidizing aircraft manufacturers is a common practice around the world. And it's not just aircraft manufacturers, our oil industry gets $3.3 billion in subsidies every year, for example. I'd like to see that stop first, if I'm honest.
 
Brazil is in our top 15 trade partners, so I'm thinking we probably made up after that.

It was a bullying tactic, nevertheless.
 
It was a bullying tactic, nevertheless.

Bullying tactic / business tactic ... same / same. I'm not sure what the issue or the solution is, though... The corporate world is complicated and gross...if that's what you're trying to say, then I agree with you completely...but I don't want Canada to be the only abstainer, we gotta eat too... :)
 
Bullying tactic / business tactic ... same / same. I'm not sure what the issue or the solution is, though... The corporate world is complicated and gross...if that's what you're trying to say, then I agree with you completely...but I don't want Canada to be the only abstainer, we gotta eat too... :)

:applaud

We gotta start being honest about this, as we do now being fanatical on the demand that KIDS understand that bullying is never OK as they watch the adults do it hard core constantly only teaches them that we are liars.
 
:applaud

We gotta start being honest about this, as we do now being fanatical on the demand that KIDS understand that bullying is never OK as they watch the adults do it hard core constantly only teaches them that we are liars.

lol Hawk. :) I love you, dude, you're nothing if not consistent...haha Hope all's well on your end, homie, with you and yours.

Don't get me wrong, I think bullying people sucks, and it would be better if we lived in a world where it wasn't a thing. But it is a thing... As for what I've tried to instill in my son, it's always been consistent: I'll never get mad at him for defending himself however he has to from a bully, and I encourage him to handle it himself, but if I ever find out he was the bully he would find out first hand from me how much it sucks to be bullied. Hopefully future generations can drive things in a different direction, but there's often a difference between what we want someday and what we have right now, and I think you need to think about both - certainly on the economic front you do. :)
 
If that's the case.....so why don't we use that for an argument? It's a matter of illegalities, isn't it?
And why isn't Boeing facing any WTO complaints?



Boeing: Facts About Subsidies to Airbus



Because it's a tempest in a tea cup.

Check out how much Boeing has received. Air Bus?

The Brazilian affair was another matter, where Brazil was poised to due some serious damage and Ottawa let them know that we might be "nice" we still like bare knuckle fighting in our professional sport.

Aircraft wars have been going on since Howard Hughes. Through a series of developments Bombardier acquired some advanced technology that other builders had left in the dust, short take off an land, STOL, developed by Canada's other airline builder, de Havilland and their Beaver/Otter/Twin Otter success stories. Now, competitors are realizing the new market is in medium and short range flights, there plenty enough jumbos.

Behind, and with Bombardiers edge, promised to be a thorn in the side of American companies and a ridiculous 300% tariff. Unheard of.

Now, Bombardier has signed a deal with Air Bus, equally on the money trough, but American so it's go. Part of the C-Series will be pre-built in US...

The strange part of the deal though, is that Air Bus has he right to buy the C-Series design in 7 years, which I believe was the intent of the tariff in the first place, ensuring the technology is American
 
Because it's a tempest in a tea cup.

Check out how much Boeing has received. Air Bus?

The Brazilian affair was another matter, where Brazil was poised to due some serious damage and Ottawa let them know that we might be "nice" we still like bare knuckle fighting in our professional sport.

Aircraft wars have been going on since Howard Hughes. Through a series of developments Bombardier acquired some advanced technology that other builders had left in the dust, short take off an land, STOL, developed by Canada's other airline builder, de Havilland and their Beaver/Otter/Twin Otter success stories. Now, competitors are realizing the new market is in medium and short range flights, there plenty enough jumbos.

Behind, and with Bombardiers edge, promised to be a thorn in the side of American companies and a ridiculous 300% tariff. Unheard of.

Now, Bombardier has signed a deal with Air Bus, equally on the money trough, but American so it's go. Part of the C-Series will be pre-built in US...

The strange part of the deal though, is that Air Bus has he right to buy the C-Series design in 7 years, which I believe was the intent of the tariff in the first place, ensuring the technology is American

How exactly does having Airbus, a European company, buy the C-Series design ensure it is American technology? I would rather the EU have it than the US.
 
Canada seems to be emerging as the bully, when it comes to Bombardier. Let's set aside Boeing for now.
Before Boeing, there was Brazil, who had a complaint against Bombardier.


Canada's response?



https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...33962839/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&


Imagine that.



Just to advise, but Bombardier has many divisions, from commercial vehicles, to tread vehicles, electronic automated LRT (Vacouver's Sky Train) aircraft and other. Bombardier is routinely given tax concessions by countries world wide to enable development of the technology for that particular project.

Your president is the perfect example of "figures lie and liars figure" the figures that have come out in the US, usually deal with total contributions and make it sound it was for aircraft only.

I don't understand your outrage. Bombardier hasn't done anything that Boeing doesn't do day in and day out. It's just that moron has whipped up protectionism so high that you object tyo everything foreign, including money saving, live saving technology developed by your number one ally.

No where in the moron administration/Boeing narrative has anyone even mentioned how much of a technological advancement US airlines are getting?

I guess it doesn't matter, the US is becoming more xenophobic than Japan.
 
How exactly does having Airbus, a European company, buy the C-Series design ensure it is American technology? I would rather the EU have it than the US.



I don't know. Ask Trudeau he made the announcement with moron.

I also would rather the EU have it, our two provinces are about to share job loses of 10,000 12,000 because of moron's renewed softwood lumber tangle. I've lived through four of them, one of them when I was in Montreal. It's time we fired back and if Ottawa had balls they would have said "OK, you don't want out technology? Fine. Hello Bejing.....?

What these guys need to have brought home is just how much our economies are intertwined. I suggest in the last lumber dispute to the then premier of BC that Canada close the border for one week. His Chief of Staff said "24 hours would do it".

I don't believe that, but a simple demonstration of what 300 million people take for granted might knock some sense into them
 
lol Hawk. :) I love you, dude, you're nothing if not consistent...haha Hope all's well on your end, homie, with you and yours.

Don't get me wrong, I think bullying people sucks, and it would be better if we lived in a world where it wasn't a thing. But it is a thing... As for what I've tried to instill in my son, it's always been consistent: I'll never get mad at him for defending himself however he has to from a bully, and I encourage him to handle it himself, but if I ever find out he was the bully he would find out first hand from me how much it sucks to be bullied. Hopefully future generations can drive things in a different direction, but there's often a difference between what we want someday and what we have right now, and I think you need to think about both - certainly on the economic front you do. :)

Why sure, I have thought things though, that is part of being educated.
 
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