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Canada Day!

Grand Mal

Grand Mal

Russian warship, go f*** yourself!
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150 years old today!
Have a good week-end, everyone.

canflag.jpg
 
O Canada. Our home and native land.
True Patriot love
In all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts, we see the rise
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land
Glorious and free.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
 
It's rainy here in our nation's capital, which has unfortunately put a...err...damper on festivities. I am lucky enough to live less that 5 kilometres from Parliament Hill, so I usually see some action on Canada Day without having to venture out. The biggest thrill for me is the Snowbirds usually fly over--or near-- my house. It's so incredible to see and hear these magnificent flying machines so close. This morning they seemed even closer. In fact so close, they set off the car alarms of the 2 cars parked in front of my house. Simply incredible!

I will later venture out to see the fireworks this evening. There's a park along the Rideau river that has an amazing view of Parliament without the bustling crowds. Should be good.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Didn't you guys formally receive your independence in 1982?
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We patriated our constitution in 1982, before that our constitution was an act of British parliament.
 
Carjosse said:
We patriated our constitution in 1982, before that our constitution was an act of British parliament.
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Maybe it's just because we Americans are all just vicious rabble-rousers and unrepentant traitors to our rightful rulers, but I can't wrap my head around the belief that a government can consider itself a country without complete autonomy, especially when it comes to anything like a constitution.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Maybe it's just because we Americans are all just vicious rabble-rousers and unrepentant traitors to our rightful rulers, but I can't wrap my head around the belief that a government can consider itself a country without complete autonomy, especially when it comes to anything like a constitution.
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It is quite easy actually, we largely governed our own affairs and were recognized as such.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Maybe it's just because we Americans are all just vicious rabble-rousers and unrepentant traitors to our rightful rulers, but I can't wrap my head around the belief that a government can consider itself a country without complete autonomy, especially when it comes to anything like a constitution.
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Personally, I consider constitutions to be monuments to the hubris of their authors. I was perfectly content to have my rights protected by British Common Law.
 
Jesse Booth said:
I don't know, the asking Parliament to change your constitution thing has always irked me. It just sounds... wrong.
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At the time, we could have just declared ourselves to be a Republic but why bother? It matters not.
Evolution isn't as exciting as revolution but I get all the excitement I need right here at home.
 
Grand Mal said:
Personally, I consider constitutions to be monuments to the hubris of their authors. I was perfectly content to have my rights protected by British Common Law.
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Ah, so you WERE British citizens until 1982! ****ing CALLED IT! Also, how exactly do you get to that conclusion about constitutions? They're no more hubristic than the Magna Carta was; it's just a foundation of a state's most basic laws and structure, and (usually) a list of things NOT to pass into law, i.e. a list of unalienable rights.

Grand Mal said:
At the time, we could have just declared ourselves to be a Republic but why bother? It matters not.
Evolution isn't as exciting as revolution but I get all the excitement I need right here at home.
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If you can't understand why violent uprisings are a wonderful thing, I'm not sure I can explain to you why you should be ashamed to not be an American. This is one heckuva communication barrier...
 
Happy 150th birthday, Canada! I love when I get to visit.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Ah, so you WERE British citizens until 1982! ****ing CALLED IT! Also, how exactly do you get to that conclusion about constitutions? They're no more hubristic than the Magna Carta was; it's just a foundation of a state's most basic laws and structure, and (usually) a list of things NOT to pass into law, i.e. a list of unalienable rights.



If you can't understand why violent uprisings are a wonderful thing, I'm not sure I can explain to you why you should be ashamed to not be an American. This is one heckuva communication barrier...
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No we were Canadian citizens, but we are also Commonwealth citizens, and that gives us pretty much nothing expect easier immigration to the UK and the ability to vote in British elections with only permanent residency in the UK. In our case our constitution said we exist and laid out how we would govern ourselves. In Canada power is derived from the crown, in the US it is derived from the people.
 
Carjosse said:
No we were Canadian citizens, but we are also Commonwealth citizens, and that gives us pretty much nothing expect easier immigration to the UK and the ability to vote in British elections with only permanent residency in the UK. In our case our constitution said we exist and laid out how we would govern ourselves. In Canada power is derived from the crown, in the US it is derived from the people.
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I've basically lost the will to deliberately strawman my own arguments at this point, so I'll just be honest here: I'm still kinda miffed America isn't twice the size it is now primarily because the battle of Quebec went so badly, even though it's the main reason we restructured the colonial army and were able to compete against the British because of it. There, I admitted it.

Screw the crown, we should have rebelled even harder. *humph*
 
Jesse Booth said:
I don't know, the asking Parliament to change your constitution thing has always irked me. It just sounds... wrong.
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Its a process of evolution vs. revolution.

The US gained its independence right away with a revolution, Canada slowly evolved into an independent country (before WW1, Canadians did not consider themselves Canadians, but British subjects).

I would say Canada got most important of the nation state powers back in 1931, the act in 1982 just made things official.
 
Yes_Minister said:
Its a process of evolution vs. revolution.

The US gained its independence right away with a revolution, Canada slowly evolved into an independent country (before WW1, Canadians did not consider themselves Canadians, but British subjects).

I would say Canada got most important of the nation state powers back in 1931, the act in 1982 just made things official.
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We Americans tend to lack the Canadian virtue of patience, I'll admit that much.
 
Jesse Booth said:
We Americans tend to lack the Canadian virtue of patience, I'll admit that much.
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Its kinda interesting to compare the two. How these countries were created explains why they are similar yet different.

I would say the battle of Vimy Ridge is the closest thing Canada had to an battle of independence, because it was considered a Canadian victory, rather then a British one by Canadian troops and it gained a lot of respect for Canada, WW1 is what helped foster an independent Canadian identity.. I also think the UK learned some of things from the American revolution and were willing to give certain colonies more rights and autonomy then others.

Canada is only constitutional monarchy in the Western Hemisphere and anglo Canadians were mostly loyalist to the crown who fled America after the revolution, so that's a big reason why there is never a successful revolt against the crown in Canada.

Canada could become a republic tomorrow, but that would be a pain, Canada would have to change a lot of stuff, it would be a lot of time and effort for no real gain.

But I would consider opposing the monarchy when Charles becomes king, having his goofy face on Canadian money is too much to bare.
 
Yes_Minister said:
Its kinda interesting to compare the two. How these countries were created explains why they are similar yet different.

I would say the battle of Vimy Ridge is the closest thing Canada had to an battle of independence, because it was considered a Canadian victory, rather then a British one by Canadian troops and it gained a lot of respect for Canada, WW1 is what helped foster an independent Canadian identity.. I also think the UK learned some of things from the American revolution and were willing to give certain colonies more rights and autonomy then others.

Canada is only constitutional monarchy in the Western Hemisphere and anglo Canadians were mostly loyalist to the crown who fled America after the revolution, so that's a big reason why there is never a successful revolt against the crown in Canada.

Canada could become a republic tomorrow, but that would be a pain, Canada would have to change a lot of stuff, it would be a lot of time and effort for no real gain.

But I would consider opposing the monarchy when Charles becomes king, having his goofy face on Canadian money is too much to bare.
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There are plenty of constitutional monarchies in the Western hemisphere, many in the Caribbean and Belize in Central America.
 
Carjosse said:
There are plenty of constitutional monarchies in the Western hemisphere, many in the Caribbean and Belize in Central America.
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My mistake.

I forgot about some of those countries, that was silly of me.
 
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Jesse Booth said:
We Americans tend to lack the Canadian virtue of patience, I'll admit that much.
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I may be biased as an American educated in the American system, but in our case it wasn't about patience but rather a refusal to allow the Crown to abuse and improperly tax the colonies. We rebelled since the Crown had wronged the colonies and we refused to be under such rulership. In the beginning the colonies were not predicted to win, and the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have been hanged for treason in England upon America's failure to gain independence. They were exceedingly brave and took a high risk to do what they did.

My honest feelings are **** the monarchy. The idea of a royal family is disgusting and a human rights violation to appoint people over you based on who's sperm and egg they came from. In the case of the Commonwealth it is all symbolic, bust still wrong in my view. The royal family should be living in poverty given they don't have real jobs and are born into a royal status. They should also be shamed for their history of incest and the numerous wrongs they have committed. France was smart to have all their royals beheaded. That being said... if people from sovereign countries want to subject themselves to that it's fine. Their taxes can fund the luxury of a crown with no power, it's just a waste of money.
 
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digsbe said:
I may be biased as an American educated in the American system, but in our case it wasn't about patience but rather a refusal to allow the Crown to abuse and improperly tax the colonies. We rebelled since the Crown had wronged the colonies and we refused to be under such rulership. In the beginning the colonies were not predicted to win, and the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have been hanged for treason in England upon America's failure to gain independence. They were exceedingly brave and took a high risk to do what they did.

My honest feelings are **** the monarchy. The idea of a royal family is disgusting and a human rights violation to appoint people over you based on who's sperm and egg they came from. In the case of the Commonwealth it is all symbolic, bust still wrong in my view. The royal family should be living in poverty given they don't have real jobs and are born into a royal status. They should also be shamed for their history of incest and the numerous wrongs they have committed. France was smart to have all their royals beheaded. That being said... if people from sovereign countries want to subject themselves to that it's fine. Their taxes can fund the luxury of a crown with no power, it's just a waste of money.
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I heard the royal family in the UK pays for itself and then some through tourist dollars, though there are conflicting reports on that:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/278052/

The Royal family is a bargain for Britain - Telegraph

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.indep...tion-to-the-british-economy-10491277.html?amp



Also common wealth countries like Canada and Australia don't put that much money towards the monarchy, I guess there is salary of governor general and lieutenant governors that act as the crown's representatives, but besides that, its not like Canada and Australia send a ton of money to the Queen.

I think constitutional monarchies exist more due to tradition, rather then anything pragmatic.

Japan become a constitutional monarchy because the role of the emperor was so central to the Japanese identity, that simply doing away with that position was unthinkable for them.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Maybe it's just because we Americans are all just vicious rabble-rousers and unrepentant traitors to our rightful rulers, but I can't wrap my head around the belief that a government can consider itself a country without complete autonomy, especially when it comes to anything like a constitution.
Click to expand...

Given that the British constitution does not formally exist the effective governance is all that counts.
 
digsbe said:
I may be biased as an American educated in the American system, but in our case it wasn't about patience but rather a refusal to allow the Crown to abuse and improperly tax the colonies. We rebelled since the Crown had wronged the colonies and we refused to be under such rulership. In the beginning the colonies were not predicted to win, and the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have been hanged for treason in England upon America's failure to gain independence. They were exceedingly brave and took a high risk to do what they did.

My honest feelings are **** the monarchy. The idea of a royal family is disgusting and a human rights violation to appoint people over you based on who's sperm and egg they came from. In the case of the Commonwealth it is all symbolic, bust still wrong in my view. The royal family should be living in poverty given they don't have real jobs and are born into a royal status. They should also be shamed for their history of incest and the numerous wrongs they have committed. France was smart to have all their royals beheaded. That being said... if people from sovereign countries want to subject themselves to that it's fine. Their taxes can fund the luxury of a crown with no power, it's just a waste of money.
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The Crown never wronged the colonies, they just wanted the colonies to help pay off a war they were the main beneficiaries of. The colonies would have lost if they were no propped up by France as they suffered from poor administration. The UK government actually makes a profit off the royal family.
 
Carjosse said:
The Crown never wronged the colonies, they just wanted the colonies to help pay off a war they were the main beneficiaries of. The colonies would have lost if they were no propped up by France as they suffered from poor administration. The UK government actually makes a profit off the royal family.
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They put several internal taxes upon us which would ordinarily only be applied to the actual British Isles. When we complained about this, Parlaiment passed the Coercive Acts, which would come to be known as the Intolerable Acts in the thirteen North American colonies. They even cut a giant section away from a few of the New England colonies and gave them to Quebec, just to spite us. That sounds pretty wrong to me.

Also, we fed and housed the soldiers fighting for us in that war, in addition to devoting several militias to the war effort as well. It's not like we hadn't already paid for the war when they started charging us for the war.
 
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