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Female U.S. Soldiers in Afghanistan ‘Encouraged’ to Wear Hijab

StillBallin75 said:
However with regard to this issue, the difference is that we are an open society with a pluralistic culture, while Afghanistan is not. Moreover, it's us fighting a war in Afghanistan, not the other way around. There are practical implications to consider.
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So then "practical" wins out over "principle"?
 
X Factor said:
So then "practical" wins out over "principle"?
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In this case, yes, that's how I would sum it up. We're there to win a war, not as feminist advocates.

Edit: On a personal level however, I DO think forcing women to cover their bodies from head to toe is moronic. And if it is not a choice, then it is oppressive.
 
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StillBallin75 said:
Small Wars Manual.
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It may say that but overall we used Marshal Law and did everything short of War Crimes to crush the enemy. The Marines understood you could win the hearts and minds after you crush the enemy and brought security to the people.
 
StillBallin75 said:
In this case, yes, that's how I would sum it up. We're there to win a war, not as feminist advocates.
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So, when the rubber really hits the road, liberalism is essentially useless?








I'm just messin' with you. :mrgreen:
 
X Factor said:
So, when the rubber really hits the road, liberalism is essentially useless?








I'm just messin' with you. :mrgreen:
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If we wanted to transform Afghanistan into a Western-style liberal democracy, then by all means I would want nothing more than to **** on their fundamentalist cultural practices (stoning, revenge killings, forced marriages, cutting off women's noses, etc.) That is pretty much a pipe dream however.
 
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StillBallin75 said:
If we wanted to transform Afghanistan into a Western-style liberal democracy, then by all means I would want nothing more than to **** on their fundamentalist cultural practices (stoning, revenge killings, forced marriages, cutting of women's noses, etc.)
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But as of right now you want to what? Respect those " fundamentalist cultural practices"?
 
X Factor said:
But as of right now you want to what? Respect those " fundamentalist cultural practices"?
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Not so much respect, as recognize that we're not there to change their culture because we have more pressing things to worry about. I don't think wearing a hijab in and of itself is oppressive though, it's just unsexy.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Not so much respect, as recognize that we're not there to change their culture because we have more pressing things to worry about. I don't think wearing a hijab in and of itself is oppressive though, it's just unsexy.
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If we're not interested in changing the culture at all, what's the point in trying to "win hearts and minds" in the first place? Why waste our time being sensitive to their culture at all?
 
X Factor said:
If we're not interested in changing the culture at all, what's the point in trying to "win hearts and minds" in the first place? Why waste our time being sensitive to their culture at all?
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You raise a very good point. It goes precisely to the heart of the debate about whether you can establish a functional democracy in a culture and region that is stuck back in the Middle Ages. We are trying to COIN our way into nation-building in a country that has no nation and is based on a tribal culture.
 
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theplaydrive said:
You realize that we are on THEIR territory...When people come here, we expect them to respect our culture. When we go there, it's reasonable that others expect us to respect their culture...This isn't even that serious of an issue.
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No, that's not quite true.

When Muslims arrive in western societies they often expect to carry on with their traditions, and those who might questions some of these traditions are frequently called "bigots".

Would Muslims be called "bigots" if they insisted foreigner women cover their heads?

I suspect not.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Not so much respect, as recognize that we're not there to change their culture because we have more pressing things to worry about. I don't think wearing a hijab in and of itself is oppressive though, it's just unsexy.
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It's a symbol of who is in real control, not necessarily military control.
 
StillBallin75 said:
They could, but as the saying goes, "when in Rome..." Unless the safety of female troops is compromised, I don't see how it can hurt more than it can help.
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Maybe, but we aren't there to spare anyones feelings. We're there to fight a blood thirsty war. Wars are ugly. And scarves have no place in them. But, I concede, if our female soldiers are okay it, and it aids them in their endeavors, then what the heck........No problem, so long as it doesn't work into some huge distraction.
 
Grant said:
No, that's not quite true.

When Muslims arrive in western societies they often expect to carry on with their traditions, and those who might questions some of these traditions are frequently called "bigots".

Would Muslims be called "bigots" if they insisted foreigner women cover their heads?

I suspect not.
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Correction: When Muslims arrive in western societies they often expect to carry on with their traditions, within certain boundaries dictated by western culture.
 
theplaydrive said:
Correction: When Muslims arrive in western societies they often expect to carry on with their traditions, within certain boundaries dictated by western culture.
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No, not always. Separate swimming pools are just one of the many demands islamic immigrants often make.

But the point is that people should be able to wear whatever they want that is within public decency laws and not wear anything they don't choose to if it is not part of their religion.

It is no more correct for a Muslim to force a head scarf on a woman than for a Jew to force me to wear the star of David, or a Christian forcing me to wear a cross. We should ignore such religious laws or customs whenever possible in order to encourage liberty from religion and more tolerance toward everyone.
 
Grant said:
No, not always. Separate swimming pools are just one of the many demands islamic immigrants often make.

But the point is that people should be able to wear whatever they want that is within public decency laws and not wear anything they don't choose to if it is not part of their religion.

It is no more correct for a Muslim to force a head scarf on a woman than for a Jew to force me to wear the star of David, or a Christian forcing me to wear a cross. We should ignore such religious laws or customs whenever possible in order to encourage liberty from religion and more tolerance toward everyone.
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Has that happened with Muslim immigrants in America? Is anyone actually being forced to wear something they don't want to? I don't know the answer, just curious.
 
Grant said:
No, not always. Separate swimming pools are just one of the many demands islamic immigrants often make.

But the point is that people should be able to wear whatever they want that is within public decency laws and not wear anything they don't choose to if it is not part of their religion.

It is no more correct for a Muslim to force a head scarf on a woman than for a Jew to force me to wear the star of David, or a Christian forcing me to wear a cross. We should ignore such religious laws or customs whenever possible in order to encourage liberty from religion and more tolerance toward everyone.
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If by demand in the U.S., you mean they go through political processes to make it happen in the same way the rest of us do, then yes. No Muslims are forcing anyone to separate swimming pools. If separate swimming pools happen in the U.S., they happen because the community has agreed to make it happen.
 
Gardener said:
Are you actually saying that women are chattel?
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In other words, yes you are comparing those two things and you're too much of a coward to own it.

... and no, I don't think I've posted or even thought anything approaching that women are chattel.
 
Binky said:
I'm sorry, but we are in a war. And in a war, sensitivies do not enter into the equation. Blood, guts and gore are the common denominators in wars. If sensitivies are then maybe wars should be fought in dresses and soldiers armed at the hip with hair brushes and makeup bags. At least that way we could "paint them into a corner" and give them a shot of leg while making sure their hair is in place. Give me a break.

War is hell. And in hell there is no such thing as sensitivies......:screwy
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This kind of thinking is precisely why the United States will never prevail in the kinds of wars we're being forced to fight.

ETA: Meaning Binky's kind of thinking, not the kind of thinking Binky was complaining about.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Has that happened with Muslim immigrants in America? Is anyone actually being forced to wear something they don't want to? I don't know the answer, just curious.
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I wasn't referring to the United States in my post (though it's speculated that many Muslim women in the democracies are being forced to cover their heads and bodies) but was commenting on the thread. Many non-Muslim women are forced to wear head coverings when they visit Muslim run countries and it is the only religion I know of which forces religious dress codes on visitors. I don't believe it should be encouraged.
 
theplaydrive said:
If by demand in the U.S., you mean they go through political processes to make it happen in the same way the rest of us do, then yes. No Muslims are forcing anyone to separate swimming pools. If separate swimming pools happen in the U.S., they happen because the community has agreed to make it happen.
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Yes, communities have received threats, legal and otherwise, to provide separate swimming pools for Muslims. This would appear to be in contadiction to your previous statement that Correction: When Muslims arrive in western societies they often expect to carry on with their traditions, within certain boundaries dictated by western culture.

 
Grant said:
Yes, communities have received threats, legal and otherwise, to provide separate swimming pools for Muslims. This would appear to be in contadiction to your previous statement that Correction: When Muslims arrive in western societies they often expect to carry on with their traditions, within certain boundaries dictated by western culture.
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That have received threats, legal or otherwise, to make changes to laws and communities? That sounds more American than anything.

The point is, most of the American population expects immigrants to adopt certain cultural norms and in fact, they are forced to (i.e. participating in democracy to get things done) - which is why after a few generations people assimilate.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
In other words, yes you are comparing those two things and you're too much of a coward to own it.
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You are simply too stupid to recognize much of anything, that's all.


If your knee were ever to stop jerking in automatic defense of these practices, you might realize their actual nature.
 
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