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Female U.S. Soldiers in Afghanistan ‘Encouraged’ to Wear Hijab

TacticalEvilDan said:
I was very clearly addressing your comment, "Wearing a hijab may not always mean subjugation of women, but you can't say that it never does." Please address what I said in the context which I said it.
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You said you pointed out the absurdity of my question, so I reposted my question (it's that thing that ends with "?"). Now, as to my comment, if it's absurd, it means you believe the hijab is never about subjugation, and I've proven with quotes and links that that's false. Care to try again?



You can knock it off with the misdirection anytime now. Unless, of course, you're all out of argument on the subject. :mrgreen:
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I've made my point.
 
Redress said:
It's not an absurd question, but I think a flawed one. I do not respect muslim beliefs personally, while respecting the right of countries like Afghanistan to choose their beliefs. Trying to do little things to fit in and be more accepted by the locals is not the same thing as saying "I think your beliefs are great".

Further, the importance of things like this cannot be overstated. If the populace has a positive opinion of our troops, it makes the job over there just a little bit easier. And that is part of a soldiers job. This is not an affirmation of Muslim beliefs.
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How is it not an affirmation of Muslim beliefs? Aren't we, in effect, communicating that it's preferable to have women dress in a way that sets them apart from their male counterparts, than to acknowledge them as being just as much soldiers as the guys?
 
X Factor said:
You said you pointed out the absurdity of my question, so I reposted my question (it's that thing that ends with "?"). Now, as to my comment, if it's absurd, it means you believe the hijab is never about subjugation, and I've proven with quotes and links that that's false. Care to try again?
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You have failed to address what I actually said, which was:

TacticalEvilDan said:
Do you seriously expect me to believe that it would mean subjugation if a female soldier in the United States military wore one out of respect -- whether she did it because she was ordered to or because she felt it was appropriate to?
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I asked you that question because that's on the topic of this thread. Get back to me when you have a reply.

X Factor said:
I've made my point.
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If your point was to demonstrate that the best you can do in response to my very relevant, on-topic question is to misdirect, then yes you most certainly have.
 
X Factor said:
How is it not an affirmation of Muslim beliefs? Aren't we, in effect, communicating that it's preferable to have women dress in a way that sets them apart from their male counterparts, than to acknowledge them as being just as much soldiers as the guys?
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I think it's got less to do with communication, principles, and sending a message than it has with the practical nature of counterinsurgency. You win hearts and minds by attempting to adopt local customs and adapting to culture. In such a case whether we think making women wear headscarves is oppressive or subjugating, is irrelevant. We're there to win a war, we're not there as a feminist group.
 
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We are still fighting about this? It seems simple enough. The commanding officer of troops on the ground thought it wise to suggest. He didn't make it an official order. It's not some crazy lib out there doing this. Let the man on ground do his job.
 
X Factor said:
Uh huh, and as a sailor, where you ever asked to actually alter your uniform? I thought military uniforms were strictly regulated. Is that not the case?

Wearing a hijab may not always mean subjugation of women, but you can't say that it never does. Is everything worthy of respect simply because it's a cultural practice?



Hijab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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uniforms ate often modified for unusual or extreme conditions.

dont we expect people to adopt american culture and traditions when they come here?
 
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apdst said:
Or, we can just kill off all the assholes. Problem solved.
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Hot dam y'all, ah swar! Who'd be left to run the gubbmint.
 
mac said:
uniforms ate often modified for unusual or extreme conditions.

dont we expect people to adopt american culture and traditions when they come here?
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Like these conditions? :mrgreen:

IC00527.jpg
 
mac said:
uniforms ate often modified for unusual or extreme conditions.

dont we expect people to adopt american culture and traditions when they come here?
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Mac raises a good point. I expect this was what the burqa debate in France was all about last year.
 
X Factor said:
How is it not an affirmation of Muslim beliefs? Aren't we, in effect, communicating that it's preferable to have women dress in a way that sets them apart from their male counterparts, than to acknowledge them as being just as much soldiers as the guys?
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No, it is showing that we want to fit in and be accepted by the host community.
 
Let me give an example I just thought of: Let us say that some French soldiers came over to the US(yes, I know there are a multitude of joke possibilities there). Right near where they are is a wonderful beach. French women soldiers would still be required to wear a top at this beach, even though French culture and laws say it is not necessary.

I figured you might enjoy that example.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You have failed to address what I actually said, which was:



I asked you that question because that's on the topic of this thread. Get back to me when you have a reply.
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It's little hard to reply to you when you keep changing what I'm supposed to reply to.



If your point was to demonstrate that the best you can do in response to my very relevant, on-topic question is to misdirect, then yes you most certainly have.
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Here's how I think it's relevant. You were plainly proven wrong in that thread, yet you stuck to your guns that the incident with the reporter in the closet never actually happened. I've shown where the hijab can be seen as a sign of subjugation of woman, yet you'll stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that it could be seen that way and undermine respect for our female troops.
 
Redress said:
Let me give an example I just thought of: Let us say that some French soldiers came over to the US(yes, I know there are a multitude of joke possibilities there). Right near where they are is a wonderful beach. French women soldiers would still be required to wear a top at this beach, even though French culture and laws say it is not necessary.

I figured you might enjoy that example.
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American beach law sucks. We are such prudes. What's wrong with showing off some beautiful tittays?? sheesh
 
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StillBallin75 said:
I think it's got less to do with communication, principles, and sending a message than it has with the practical nature of counterinsurgency. You win hearts and minds by attempting to adopt local customs and adapting to culture. In such a case whether we think making women wear headscarves is oppressive or subjugating, is irrelevant. We're there to win a war, we're not there as a feminist group.
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To what end are we "winning hearts and minds" if we're just going to say, "You know that whole head scarf thing, turns out you're right about that."?
 
StillBallin75 said:
American beach law sucks. We are such prudes. What's wrong with showing off some beautiful tittays?? sheesh
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Which is exactly what those hypothetical French soldiers would think. However, despite that, they would still be expected to follow our cultural norms.
 
mac said:
uniforms ate often modified for unusual or extreme conditions.

dont we expect people to adopt american culture and traditions when they come here?
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Do we? Are Muslim women in the US not allowed to wear a full burka if that's what they believe in?
 
X Factor said:
To what end are we "winning hearts and minds" if we're just going to say, "You know that whole head scarf thing, turns out you're right about that."?
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Has nothing to do with us thinking about whether it's right or wrong. In this war, a lot of the time we need the locals' help. Adopting local customs, learning their language and respecting their culture goes a long way towards enabling you to get them to help.
 
X Factor said:
Do we? Are Muslim women in the US not allowed to wear a full burka if that's what they believe in?
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I don't recall if that issue has come up in the states yet, but like I said in a previous post this issue was at the center of the French debate, and that's why they ended up banning it. That was an instance of codifying social norms into law. It hasn't happened (yet) in this country, but it could.
 
Alexander the Great was one of the greatest military minds of all time. His policy was to always adapt/adopt some parts of the local culture to get them on board.
 
Redress said:
Let me give an example I just thought of: Let us say that some French soldiers came over to the US(yes, I know there are a multitude of joke possibilities there). Right near where they are is a wonderful beach. French women soldiers would still be required to wear a top at this beach, even though French culture and laws say it is not necessary.

I figured you might enjoy that example.
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While I do enjoy the example, that's different in that that's a matter of respecting our laws, not our customs.
 
X Factor said:
While I do enjoy the example, that's different in that that's a matter of respecting our laws, not our customs.
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You have a point. However the difference between law and custom is often one of degree. For whatever reason, it's a cultural custom in the United States for women not to go around with their breasts out in the open at regular beaches (and in many other public places). That custom has been codified into law.

I don't think it's law in Afghanistan for all women to wear a hijab, but it might be a good idea when you want to relate more to the locals.
 
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Redress said:
Let me give an example I just thought of: Let us say that some French soldiers came over to the US(yes, I know there are a multitude of joke possibilities there). Right near where they are is a wonderful beach. French women soldiers would still be required to wear a top at this beach, even though French culture and laws say it is not necessary.

I figured you might enjoy that example.
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I don't see them not wearing tops as being a problem. :rofl

I certainly doubt anyone is going to car bomb a French patrol over it.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
No, I've been very consistent with what I asked you. It is you who keeps trying to change the subject.
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No, you haven't been consistent. No matter though, I'm getting of this Merry-go-'round. Here's the question you claim to want a response to;
TacticalEvilDan said:
Do you seriously expect me to believe that it would mean subjugation if a female soldier in the United States military wore one out of respect -- whether she did it because she was ordered to or because she felt it was appropriate to?
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Answering your question as you've asked it, I don't seriously expect you to believe anything you refuse to believe, even if it's proven fact - as in the case of the reporter in the closet.

See what I did there?
 
Alright, I guess I have to rephrase so as to prevent you from twisting my words:

Do you honestly believe that it would mean subjugation if a female soldier in the United States military wore one out of respect -- whether she did it because she was ordered to or because she felt it was appropriate to?
 
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