• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Female U.S. Soldiers in Afghanistan ‘Encouraged’ to Wear Hijab

TacticalEvilDan said:
Alright, I guess I have to rephrase so as to prevent you from twisting my words:

Do you honestly believe that it would mean subjugation if a female soldier in the United States military wore one out of respect -- whether she did it because she was ordered to or because she felt it was appropriate to?
Click to expand...
I believe that it could be perceived that way, yes. I'm also opposed to women being less safe by foregoing their helmets, where their male counterparts are not expected to.
 
X Factor said:
I believe that it could be perceived that way, yes.
Click to expand...

I didn't ask if it could be perceived that way. I asked if you honestly believe it would mean subjugation. Please answer the question I asked.

X Factor said:
I'm also opposed to women being less safe by foregoing their helmets, where their male counterparts are not expected to.
Click to expand...

So am I, but I sincerely doubt that they're being expected to remove their helmets in situations where their male counterparts are not.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I didn't ask if it could be perceived that way. I asked if you honestly believe it would mean subjugation. Please answer the question I asked.
Click to expand...
Why wouldn't it mean that? Oh, I'm sure that's not the reason for it from the militaries perspective, but it doesn't change the character of the garment itself.



So am I, but I sincerely doubt that they're being expected to remove their helmets in situations where their male counterparts are not.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah? Did you see the picture that came with the story. Pay special attention to that male soldier in the background.
hijabs.jpg
 
X Factor said:
Why wouldn't it mean that? Oh, I'm sure that's not the reason for it from the militaries perspective, but it doesn't change the character of the garment itself.
Click to expand...

Feel free to continue refusing to answer the question, I can only chase you around the mullberry bush for so long.

X Factor said:
Oh yeah? Did you see the picture that came with the story. Pay special attention to that male soldier in the background.
Click to expand...

Looks to me like everybody in the picture is on duty. If that's true, then that's not cool.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Feel free to continue refusing to answer the question, I can only chase you around the mullberry bush for so long.
Click to expand...
TED, I'm seriously not trying to dodge your question. I'm conceding to you that the suggestion was not made by the commander (or whoever) with the intent to subjugate the female members of his unit.

Looks to me like everybody in the picture is on duty. If that's true, then that's not cool.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I think maybe there's been some miscommunication here. I assumed, based on my reading of the story, that the hijab was encouraged even when our troops are on duty and out on patrol (I think the article made mention of that, but I'm not sure). If you believed the recommendation was made that women wear the hijab only when not on duty and not on base, I can see that being different question. I'm not arguing to ban the hijab on women soldiers if that's what they want to do when they're not working. If it's truly their choice, then it's not subjugation.
 
X Factor said:
Do we? Are Muslim women in the US not allowed to wear a full burka if that's what they believe in?
Click to expand...

It doesn't violate any custom here for them to do that (except perhaps, in a bank) Have you ever lived or spent significant time in any foreign country?
 
mac said:
It doesn't violate any custom here for them to do that (except perhaps, in a bank) Have you ever lived or spent significant time in any foreign country?
Click to expand...
I've been to Mexico, Germany and Australia, but only to visit for a few weeks at a time at the most. Why?
 
X Factor said:
I've been to Mexico, Germany and Australia, but only to visit for a few weeks at a time at the most. Why?
Click to expand...

Because as compared to most other countries, excluding Northern Europe, America is far more orderly culture. We fall into lines, we wait our turn, we drive orderly and stay inside the lines. Go to a post office in Italy and try to figure out who's next at the counter...or drive and try to figure out the right of way system. Go to a grocery store in the UK and try not to get pissed at tall the old ladies bumping into you and not saying excuse me.

We demand all people coming to the US to learn English and adopt our way of living. Our cultural norms may not be as obvious as turbans and burka's but we have them and we absolutely demand that people fall in line when in America.
 
X Factor said:
TED, I'm seriously not trying to dodge your question. I'm conceding to you that the suggestion was not made by the commander (or whoever) with the intent to subjugate the female members of his unit.
Click to expand...

Okay.

X Factor said:
If you believed the recommendation was made that women wear the hijab only when not on duty and not on base, I can see that being different question. I'm not arguing to ban the hijab on women soldiers if that's what they want to do when they're not working. If it's truly their choice, then it's not subjugation.
Click to expand...

I simply couldn't imagine any commanding officer in any branch of our military being stupid enough to advise -- much less instruct -- the female soldiers under his command to forgo protective head gear in favor of a hijab.
 
If a freed black person from the North were to have visited a southern plantation in 1850 and was told to play the role of slave by calling white men "master", would they be supporting slavery?

Of course they would.
 
Amazed said:
Female U.S. soldiers are being “encouraged” to wear headscarves in Afghanistan in an effort to get closer to the locals, according to The Daily Caller.

Major Kyndra Rotunda, the executive director of the Military Law and Policy Institute, says that being “encouraged” to do something in the military is tantamount to being “ordered” to do it, putting the servicewomen in a touchy situation.


Sensitivity Training? Female U.S. Soldiers in Afghanistan ‘Encouraged’ to Wear Hijab | The Blaze

You know what you "sensitive" Muslims, kiss my lily white a**.
Click to expand...

Had an acquaintance who married an oil exec back in...the early eighties I think. She went over seas with him and came back for a visit telling some of us of her experiences. She said she never went out without her body being completely covered to the ankles and wrists and including a little flap over her lower face.
The oil industry execs knew, I suppose, that it is best to do as "the Romans do" when living in Rome.
 
how about showing some respect for the decisions made by the female soldiers who are over there. they have chosen to wear Hijab in some circumstances. all you are doing is undermining their decisions. you are not there, they are, and i think they are more qualified than you to decide what they want to do.

it sounds like they are doing an awesome job over there.

I was given the opportunity to attend the first women's shura in two years located in Jaji Maidan on Thursday, Feb. 10. A shura, for those of you who don't know what that is, is simply a formal way for Afghans to get together to solve issues in the community. For the U.S. it would be like a meeting between council members of a town.

It was, quite simply, an amazing mission. For starters, the entire mission was conducted by females. Women Soldiers from the personal security detail, 330th Military Police Company escorted the female Afghan government officials to the town, cleared the building they would be meeting with local women in, and secured the immediate area from threats. The only men on the mission were on the outside securing the rest of the village. To make the females more comfortable we all wore head scarves. It was funny seeing female Soldiers in full battle rattle with brightly colored scarves peeking from under their helmets.

The land of milk and honey: Tobey White | Army Strong Stories


DVIDS - News - Women?s shura convenes for first time in 2 years
 
mac said:
Because as compared to most other countries, excluding Northern Europe, America is far more orderly culture. We fall into lines, we wait our turn, we drive orderly and stay inside the lines. Go to a post office in Italy and try to figure out who's next at the counter...or drive and try to figure out the right of way system. Go to a grocery store in the UK and try not to get pissed at tall the old ladies bumping into you and not saying excuse me.

We demand all people coming to the US to learn English and adopt our way of living. Our cultural norms may not be as obvious as turbans and burka's but we have them and we absolutely demand that people fall in line when in America.
Click to expand...

Do yourself a favor: never, ever, drive in Italy.
 
Serenity said:
how about showing some respect for the decisions made by the female soldiers who are over there. they have chosen to wear Hijab in some circumstances. all you are doing is undermining their decisions. you are not there, they are, and i think they are more qualified than you to decide what they want to do.
Click to expand...
Don't know if you're addressing me here, but according to the OP, some of the women felt that this "recommendation" felt like more of an order. If that's truly the case, then it's not the woman who's making the choice at all.
 
Okay, this is how I see this situation,

As long as they are just "encouraging" wearing the scarves or even perhaps asking for volunteer women service members to wear them in order to aid with cultural relations, then I am okay and actually for this. Sounds like a pretty good idea.

I do have a problem with it if they are ordering all servicewomen to wear the scarves whenever they are not required to wear military head gear. This would not only be wrong just because it is sexist, but it would also damage progress in trying to show the Afghani people, men and women, that women should have a choice whether to wear certain attire or not. In fact, it should be made quite known to all the Afghani people that any American women wearing the scarves are doing so by their own choice.

Not all customs should be observed just because they are there and we do need to be careful about why and how we are observing customs of other countries to ensure that we aren't encouraging behaviors/laws/customs that are oppressive by giving the idea that we are okay with such customs by ordering our servicemembers to observe them.
 
X Factor said:
according to the OP, some of the women felt that this "recommendation" felt like more of an order. If that's truly the case, then it's not the woman who's making the choice at all.
Click to expand...
actually that's not true.

Major Kyndra Rotunda (who is a law professor at Chapman University), gave her opinion of the recommendation. there was no mention of any of the female soldiers opinions on the matter in the OP which is why i posted my links showing that at least the female soldiers of the entire 330th MP Company have no problems with wearing the scarves. did you read the link? it shows some of the excellent work that they are doing with the women at Jaji Maidan.

no one is ordering these soldiers wear Hijab. "To make the females more comfortable we all wore head scarves. It was funny seeing female Soldiers in full battle rattle with brightly colored scarves peeking from under their helmets.".

note they said under their helmets.

release%20110210-A-8584W-001.jpg


you would expect that any other female soldier in other areas who chooses to wear Hijab and is in a situation that would require them to wear their helmet would do so. why wouldn't they. i'm sure they would take all resonable precautions to keep themself as protected as possible. just like soldiers in the 330th MP Company do.
 
X Factor said:
Don't know if you're addressing me here, but according to the OP, some of the women felt that this "recommendation" felt like more of an order. If that's truly the case, then it's not the woman who's making the choice at all.
Click to expand...

Recommendations in the military generally feel like orders. The difference between a recommendation and an order in the military is that you can not be charged with failing to follow a recommendation.
 
I'm sorry, but we are in a war. And in a war, sensitivies do not enter into the equation. Blood, guts and gore are the common denominators in wars. If sensitivies are then maybe wars should be fought in dresses and soldiers armed at the hip with hair brushes and makeup bags. At least that way we could "paint them into a corner" and give them a shot of leg while making sure their hair is in place. Give me a break.

War is hell. And in hell there is no such thing as sensitivies......:screwy
 
Binky said:
I'm sorry, but we are in a war. And in a war, sensitivies do not enter into the equation. Blood, guts and gore are the common denominators in wars. If sensitivies are then maybe wars should be fought in dresses and soldiers armed at the hip with hair brushes and makeup bags. At least that way we could "paint them into a corner" and give them a shot of leg while making sure their hair is in place. Give me a break.

War is hell. And in hell there is no such thing as sensitivies......:screwy
Click to expand...

That would be true if we were fighting a conventional war. We are not.
 
Last edited:
StillBallin75 said:
That would be true if we were fighting a conventional war. We are not.
Click to expand...



The fact remains that war is hell. It isn't a party and dressup time. It's fight to the death time. In a war, the only thing that matters is keeping focused on why one is there and then doing what is required to stay alive, so one can return home. Concerning oneself with other matters that distracts one from the problem at hand only serves to get one killed.
 
Last edited:
Binky said:
The fact remains that war is hell. It isn't a party and dressup time. It's fight to the death time. In a war, the only thing that matters is keeping focused on why one is there and then doing what is required to stay alive, so one can return home. Concerning oneself with other matters that distracts one from the problem at hand only serves to get one killed.
Click to expand...

If only modern warfare was actually as simple as that...
 
StillBallin75 said:
If only modern warfare was actually as simple as that...
Click to expand...

Now that I've read other posts on this thread, I have some second thoughts. I mistakenly thought that the women were being encouraged to wear this head scarves when they were in safe zones; now I see that the military is suggesting they wear them all the time...bright colorful scarves? Maybe we should have all company commanders wear some identifying insignia when they're in harm's way.

I hope our American women in Afghanistan who choose to wear them choose helmet-matching scarves....and take them off when the bullets start to fly. It seems odd to me that the military would suggest that women identify themselves in battle.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom