• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Unions threaten Business

Ikari said:
Hey hey hey! Quit pointing out reality! Besides, the rich are special. They..umm...pay taxes (now let's not go into the uber rich who pay lower marginal tax rates than their employees) and they totally give to charities; something no other class in America does...EVER. And they supply us with jobs because they aren't moving production overseas and without those rich we could never have jobs because in America there are not droves of people waiting in the wings to take over who could do a better job. None in the least. Leave the rich alone!
Click to expand...

I like free market capitalism, we do not have it. I would like to drive us into the free market state. Being part of the problem doesn't achieve those ends.
Click to expand...

Shheezz I see you are for the free market and capitalism, as long as it fits your idea of what it should be huh? Guess the idea of moving a company to a place where they can increase profits..... and still keep prices low, doesn't meet with your idea of free market capitalism

So why don't the two of you go into business, employ others paying them that great middle class wage, and keep your profits and your own pay down to where you think it should be ??
 
Ikari said:
They should be taxed equally. The rules are not set up that way, however. Nor did I call the evil rich. I said they are not special. They're the same as us all. Yet they can get the government to set up specialized tax brackets and breaks to reduce their marginal tax rate to be below the rest of ours. Why should they pay less in taxes? Being rich doesn't make one special, it merely makes them rich.

But continue with your penis jokes because it's doing wonders for your argument. :roll:
Click to expand...

So tell me...you REALLY want the people to be taxed evenly? Because honestly...Im ALL FOR a flat tax-kill off the earned income credit...no exemptions...across the board one flat tax rate. You bet. Or by 'even' do you mean a progressively higher tax rate where the 'poor' pay nothing (and continue to get the EIC and receive money they didnt pay in the first place), middle income pay more, and high income pay progressively more. Which would you prefer? The fact is that the rich DO pay more than the poor or the middle income. Always have and always will.

And if you dont like being shown THAT you display penis envy of the rich then stop WHINING about them and putting it on display for all the world to see.
 
VanceMack said:
So tell me...you REALLY want the people to be taxed evenly? Because honestly...Im ALL FOR a flat tax-kill off the earned income credit...no exemptions...across the board one flat tax rate. You bet. Or by 'even' do you mean a progressively higher tax rate where the 'poor' pay nothing (and continue to get the EIC and receive money they didnt pay in the first place), middle income pay more, and high income pay progressively more. Which would you prefer? The fact is that the rich DO pay more than the poor or the middle income. Always have and always will.

And if you dont like being shown THAT you display penis envy of the rich then stop WHINING about them and putting it on display for all the world to see.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I'd go with the poor paying nothing. However, regressive taxe schemes can be a bit shady. I would get rid of things like capital gains taxes as all income should be treated as income and if I'm getting taxed a certain rate on my income, then so should everyone else. In the end, I wonder if the US government ever took the Cayman islands I wonder how many people would be running for the hills.

But good job keeping on your penis jokes, glad to see debating like and adult isn't in your repertoire.
 
Catawba said:
There is no benefit to the country for rich people taking their tax savings and investing it in tax free accounts overseas. It just makes it harder on the middle class and increases our national debt. We have 30 years of experience that shows that Reaganomics (trickle down theory) never worked. The rich get richer and more and more of he middle class are turned into the poor.
Click to expand...

We are losing our middle class, because we are losing our middle class jobs. I agree we are losing our middle class, the gap between rich and poor is widening.... But if you think for one minute, that those earning below 100.000 a year, is going to help to build the jobs in this country, you are nuts. Like it or not, it's the wealthy and only them, that can create jobs. Now you might no like that, but again, it's just the facts.

What we need to be doing is trying to create an atmosphere that makes it economically attractive for corporations and businesses to want to come here and prosper. You don't have to like the fact that basically we have waged ourselves out of the global marketplace, (wages including benefits) Until we can figure out how to do that, nothing is going to change.
 
The Barbarian said:
We are losing our middle class, because we are losing our middle class jobs. I agree we are losing our middle class, the gap between rich and poor is widening.... But if you think for one minute, that those earning below 100.000 a year, is going to help to build the jobs in this country, you are nuts. Like it or not, it's the wealthy and only them, that can create jobs. Now you might no like that, but again, it's just the facts.

What we need to be doing is trying to create an atmosphere that makes it economically attractive for corporations and businesses to want to come here and prosper. You don't have to like the fact that basically we have waged ourselves out of the global marketplace, (wages including benefits) Until we can figure out how to do that, nothing is going to change.
Click to expand...

There's a simple fix to that, pay more. We have labor and environmental laws which will cost us money. But green policies and fair labor policies probably aren't the worst thing in the world. However, it's much cheaper to produce in countries without those laws. There's nothing wrong with the laws themselves, I think responsible environmental and labor laws are good and necessary in a system. But there's no such thing as a free lunch and if we want these things, we have to pay for these things. The fact is that the rich aren't special, and they aren't going to get us out of this mess (who do you think drove us to this place anyway?). There are tons of people who can do the job, for every rich person there are thousands who would like to be rich. And they'll play by the rules too. Instead of thinking that we have to prop up corporations whenever they fail, why don't we focus on promoting small, local business instead? You don't need to be a billionare to start one of those.
 
Ikari said:
I don't know if I'd go with the poor paying nothing. However, regressive taxe schemes can be a bit shady. I would get rid of things like capital gains taxes as all income should be treated as income and if I'm getting taxed a certain rate on my income, then so should everyone else. In the end, I wonder if the US government ever took the Cayman islands I wonder how many people would be running for the hills.

But good job keeping on your penis jokes, glad to see debating like and adult isn't in your repertoire.
Click to expand...

Have you ever seen or read a book called the fair tax?? If not you should find an read it. It's basically a consumption tax... all other federal taxes are dropped including SS and Medicare. There is no filing for anything at the end of the year. Those below the poverty level are actually send checks every month to cover their tax.

If I remember it right, it would be around 20%, and those supporting it say, (Ican't prove it) that prices would drop in the marketplace by about 15% within a year, because of the existing taxes that are one all goods sold.

That is just one way of making our tax system fairer to all. But I think that anything near or like it would be better, and it's what is needed, our existing tax system is failing.
 
There are many various debatable forms of taxation which in the end would probably produce better results than what we currently have. There's no reason for such a complicated tax system as we have. I'm not opposed to having serious debate over types of taxation.
 
Ikari said:
There's a simple fix to that, pay more. We have labor and environmental laws which will cost us money. But green policies and fair labor policies probably aren't the worst thing in the world. However, it's much cheaper to produce in countries without those laws. There's nothing wrong with the laws themselves, I think responsible environmental and labor laws are good and necessary in a system. But there's no such thing as a free lunch and if we want these things, we have to pay for these things. The fact is that the rich aren't special, and they aren't going to get us out of this mess (who do you think drove us to this place anyway?). There are tons of people who can do the job, for every rich person there are thousands who would like to be rich. And they'll play by the rules too. Instead of thinking that we have to prop up corporations whenever they fail, why don't we focus on promoting small, local business instead? You don't need to be a billionare to start one of those.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you just said, I never have said the rich were special. I just get tired of the blame Bush game. I was also in favor of letting the tax cuts just expire.

The only problem with your idea is, as long as we retain “free” trade, it can't happen. Those countries that don't have our laws will produce those goods as a much cheaper price, send them here, and be able to sell them cheaper then we can produce them. I'm sorry to say, but most Americans will by the cheaper item … talk is a great thing, but when it comes to balancing your home budget, and having a little extra left over.... the less expensive item often is the one brought.
 
Ikari said:
I don't know if I'd go with the poor paying nothing. However, regressive taxe schemes can be a bit shady. I would get rid of things like capital gains taxes as all income should be treated as income and if I'm getting taxed a certain rate on my income, then so should everyone else. In the end, I wonder if the US government ever took the Cayman islands I wonder how many people would be running for the hills.

But good job keeping on your penis jokes, glad to see debating like and adult isn't in your repertoire.
Click to expand...

Well...you know...debating someone that incessantly whines about successful people...well...it gets a little wearisome. Like I said...stop whining about people that are more successful than you and you wont come across as being envious of people that got something you are obviously lacking.

I'm fine with a flat tax and eliminating tax breaks. If the federal government demonstrated responsible spending, hell Id be fine with paying more in taxes. AFTER congress demonstrates legislatively mandated fiscal responsibility. However when a 'progressive' congress progressively spends more and more, it makes no sense to just let them. And blaming the ills of the world on people that demonstrate an ability to succeed is simply weak. Almost as weak as the idiots that blame the problems of the country on one party or the other. Or those that blame their own failure in life on others and whine because congress isnt doing more to take from the successful and give it to them.
 
The Barbarian said:
I agree with everything you just said, I never have said the rich were special. I just get tired of the blame Bush game. I was also in favor of letting the tax cuts just expire.

The only problem with your idea is, as long as we retain “free” trade, it can't happen. Those countries that don't have our laws will produce those goods as a much cheaper price, send them here, and be able to sell them cheaper then we can produce them. I'm sorry to say, but most Americans will by the cheaper item … talk is a great thing, but when it comes to balancing your home budget, and having a little extra left over.... the less expensive item often is the one brought.
Click to expand...

Haha, I've recently toyed with the idea of pissing off China and putting up tarrifs. But at the same accord, we are responsible too for this because our consuming habits also promote this sort of behavior. There was a time when a business was concerned with their employees. They would do everything in their power, including taking pay cuts or short term losses of profit, to keep people hired on and things running. That commitment and resolve is gone, it's now all Harvard Business types who look only at the bottom line. When the worker becomes nothing more than a line item in a spreadsheet. Their goal is to maximize profit, and that's it. And if they can look more profitable by laying off a bunch of people, then so be it. It would be hard to get that resolve back, but we need to understand as well our roll in the entire system and begin to consume in intelligent and researched manners.
 
VanceMack said:
Well...you know...debating someone that incessantly whines about successful people...well...it gets a little wearisome. Like I said...stop whining about people that are more successful than you and you wont come across as being envious of people that got something you are obviously lacking.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get tired of debating intellectually dishonest folk. So it seems like both of us are screwed.
 
Ikari said:
Haha, I've recently toyed with the idea of pissing off China and putting up tarrifs. But at the same accord, we are responsible too for this because our consuming habits also promote this sort of behavior. There was a time when a business was concerned with their employees. They would do everything in their power, including taking pay cuts or short term losses of profit, to keep people hired on and things running. That commitment and resolve is gone, it's now all Harvard Business types who look only at the bottom line. When the worker becomes nothing more than a line item in a spreadsheet. Their goal is to maximize profit, and that's it. And if they can look more profitable by laying off a bunch of people, then so be it. It would be hard to get that resolve back, but we need to understand as well our roll in the entire system and begin to consume in intelligent and researched manners.
Click to expand...

-chuckles= We better pay our debt off to them first.

That works to ways too, I've seen factories where the workers were shown the company was having troubles for-go raises that year. Back when I was growing up, people would take a job and stay there their entire life.

Sad to say we live in different times, companies don't value employee's and employee's don't value the company they work for, and will leave at any given time to make more money. I don't think we will ever see those days again.
 
Last edited:
Ikari said:
Yeah, I get tired of debating intellectually dishonest folk. So it seems like both of us are screwed.
Click to expand...

Ooooooo! Zing! What has been intellectually dishonest? Pointing out yours and others incessant whining about 'the rich'? That may sting...but its straight up.
 
The Barbarian said:
We are losing our middle class, because we are losing our middle class jobs. I agree we are losing our middle class, the gap between rich and poor is widening.... But if you think for one minute, that those earning below 100.000 a year, is going to help to build the jobs in this country, you are nuts. Like it or not, it's the wealthy and only them, that can create jobs. Now you might no like that, but again, it's just the facts.
Click to expand...

Its not the facts, it is your interpretation of the facts. That was not a problem with the tax rates under our socialist parents and their progressive tax rates. If the tax cuts had actually produced more jobs, you would have a point. But history tells us that trickle down theory was a failure in practice.

What we need to be doing is trying to create an atmosphere that makes it economically attractive for corporations and businesses to want to come here and prosper.
Click to expand...

We've tried that for 30 years and it ain't working. How about we make education and skills training a priority in this country so they have the best workforce in the world, and provide national healthcare so corporations don't have compete with companies in countries where the government provides the healthcare?


You don't have to like the fact that basically we have waged ourselves out of the global marketplace, (wages including benefits) Until we can figure out how to do that, nothing is going to change.
Click to expand...

We haven't, the effective tax rate is as low or lower than most of the rest of the world. Greed is what led those we gave the tax breaks to desert those that support them.
 
Last edited:
The Barbarian said:
I don't think we will ever see those days again.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I don't think so either. It would take a great reversal of greed to get back to that point.
 
Catawba said:
Its not the facts, it is your interpretation of the facts. That was not a problem with the tax rates under our socialist parents and their progressive tax rates. If the tax cuts had actually produced more jobs, you would have a point. But history tells us that trickle down theory was a failure in practice.



We've tried that for 30 years and it ain't working. How about we make education and skills training a priority in this country so they have the best workforce in the world, and provide national healthcare so corporations don't have compete with companies in countries where the government provides the healthcare?




We haven't, the effective tax rate is as low or lower than most of the rest of the world. Greed is what led those we gave the tax breaks to desert those that support them.
Click to expand...

there are many good arguments for tax cuts-especially for those who pay far more of the tax burden than their share of the income or their use of the government services those taxes pay for

but what are the arguments for tax hikes? do they create more jobs? certainly no evidence of that

do they deter government growth--Of course not, tax hikes on the rich merely are used as an excuse by the left for MORE spending to buy the votes of those who dont pay enough taxes and that group continues to vote for big spenders seduced by the lie that the rich will pay for it

so tell me-what good things come from raising taxes on those who already pay much of the taxes?
 
VanceMack said:
Ooooooo! Zing! What has been intellectually dishonest? Pointing out yours and others incessant whining about 'the rich'? That may sting...but its straight up.
Click to expand...

It was you saying I have been incessantly whining when all I did was point out facts of the system. You went and drama queened your way in with the childish penis jokes while sitting on your high horse which was on your soap box.
 
Last edited:
TurtleDude said:
do they deter government growth--Of course not, tax hikes on the rich merely are used as an excuse by the left for MORE spending to buy the votes of those who dont pay enough taxes and that group continues to vote for big spenders seduced by the lie that the rich will pay for it
Click to expand...

This is part of the big problem. But I don't subscribe to the left/right thing on the big spending front. Both parties spend big, both parties increase the deficit. It's not like we have a party of small, responsible, controlled government anymore. One big thing is that we do need to start getting our spending under control. And that has to come in forms of cuts and tax hikes. We gotta pay for what we have, and we're not going to cut everything so what we don't cut we have to fund.
 
Ikari said:
This is part of the big problem. But I don't subscribe to the left/right thing on the big spending front. Both parties spend big, both parties increase the deficit. It's not like we have a party of small, responsible, controlled government anymore. One big thing is that we do need to start getting our spending under control. And that has to come in forms of cuts and tax hikes. We gotta pay for what we have, and we're not going to cut everything so what we don't cut we have to fund.
Click to expand...

tax hikes need to be applied to EVERYONE-especially those who are in that 47% that pay no income tax

we who pay more of the tax bill than the other 95% of the country full well understand the costs of government

its time to apply that lesson to the majority that has supported both parties' reckless spending
 
Catawba said:
Its not the facts, it is your interpretation of the facts. That was not a problem with the tax rates under our socialist parents and their progressive tax rates. If the tax cuts had actually produced more jobs, you would have a point. But history tells us that trickle down theory was a failure in practice.



We've tried that for 30 years and it ain't working. How about we make education and skills training a priority in this country so they have the best workforce in the world, and provide national healthcare so corporations don't have compete with companies in countries where the government provides the healthcare?




We haven't, the effective tax rate is as low or lower than most of the rest of the world. Greed is what led those we gave the tax breaks to desert those that support them.
Click to expand...

It was not just the greed of the rich we all share in the lost jobs, every time we purchased foreign made goods or used foreign services we put a nail in our economic future, the life of opportunity we had is gone for all but a very few. If I am wrong tell me why any company would want to start up a business in the USA when they can start up a business in China/ Viet Nam or some other low labor cost country and then sell it to the USA
 
TurtleDude said:
there are many good arguments for tax cuts-especially for those who pay far more of the tax burden than their share of the income or their use of the government services those taxes pay for
Click to expand...

Most of government expenditures is to protect the wealth of the rich.
but what are the arguments for tax hikes? do they create more jobs? certainly no evidence of that
Click to expand...

No one is suggesting tax hikes. We are talking about discontinuing the tax cuts to the wealthy, so that the middle class can remain middle class without further sliding into the poor class. We had no problems with job creation when we had a progressive tax system.

so tell me-what good things come from raising taxes on those who already pay much of the taxes?
Click to expand...

By discontinuing the temporary tax cuts to the rich along with spending cuts, we begin to rebuild the middle class and pay down our national debt.
Click to expand...
 
TurtleDude said:
tax hikes need to be applied to EVERYONE-especially those who are in that 47% that pay no income tax

we who pay more of the tax bill than the other 95% of the country full well understand the costs of government

its time to apply that lesson to the majority that has supported both parties' reckless spending
Click to expand...

Everyone would have to pay more, yes. But perhaps if we all had to bear the brunt of our bloated government, we'd be more willing to get on the government about its spending. If it's just zeros added to some deficit none of us really see or feel the effect from, then we're not really going to be inclined to do anything about it.
 
EarlzP said:
It was not just the greed of the rich we all share in the lost jobs, every time we purchased foreign made goods or used foreign services we put a nail in our economic future, the life of opportunity we had is gone for all but a very few. If I am wrong tell me why any company would want to start up a business in the USA when they can start up a business in China/ Viet Nam or some other low labor cost country and then sell it to the USA
Click to expand...

I think that is a valid point. I think we should all endeavor to buy locally. Companies here also have a hard time competing with companies who's countries provide national healthcare. And we need to put more priortity on education and job training, so we have the best trained workforce in the world.
 
Catawba said:
TurtleDude said:
Most of government expenditures is to protect the wealth of the rich.


No one is suggesting tax hikes. We are talking about discontinuing the tax cuts to the wealthy, so that the middle class can remain middle class without further sliding into the poor class. We had no problems with job creation when we had a progressive tax system.



By discontinuing the temporary tax cuts to the rich along with spending cuts, we begin to rebuild the middle class and pay down our national debt.
Click to expand...

The idea of the tax cuts was to stimulate economic growth, the tax cuts worked China is doing great so is India. Their are still many third world countries that can use the economic stimulus that our tax dollars will provide so lets leave the tax cuts in place
Click to expand...
 
EarlzP said:
Catawba said:
The idea of the tax cuts was to stimulate economic growth, the tax cuts worked China is doing great so is India. Their are still many third world countries that can use the economic stimulus that our tax dollars will provide so lets leave the tax cuts in place
Click to expand...

Interesting perspective.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom