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Unions threaten Business

Lord Tammerlain said:
Jobs are not a right of course

The ability to sell your goods or services is. If you choose to combine the selling of your labour along with other people within the same employer you should be able to. If you and your associated decide to hold out on providing your service to the company it is their right. If you and your associates make a contract with the employer that they will only use the services provided by you or your associates that is a right

Having the government mandate that Dell has to use Intell chips along with AMD computer chips is a violation of Intel and of Dells rights to form contracts. If at the end of said contract the buyer of said goods or services does not want to purchase those goods or services (in this case labour) by all means dont buy those services.

Overall in a capitalist system everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Greed is good, is it not. What I object to is the method of trying to limit the union. If the gov of wisconsin tried just to actually drive a hard bargin and lower compensation I would be fine with that. He took a cowards way out because he does not have the stomach to lock out the union as a means to drive down compensation costs
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A free market is ultimately regulated by the customer. In the case of public employee unions, the cutomers are the tax payers. The tax payers aren't interested in buying the product that the PEU's are peddling. It's a classic case of supply and demand.
 
apdst said:
A free market is ultimately regulated by the customer. In the case of public employee unions, the cutomers are the tax payers. The tax payers aren't interested in buying the product that the PEU's are peddling. It's a classic case of supply and demand.
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:Roflma: You don't get how free markets work, do you? The tax payer isn't "the customer," and neither public employee unions nor taxes are in part of a "free" market. You're talking about a distorted, unfree market, and you don't even realize it:lol: It'd be funny if it wasn't sad that people like you represent a large swath of conservatism. How can you claim to respect the free market when you don't even understand it?
 
apdst said:
Intimidation is what it is. I think those businesses should counter by refusing to pay their taxes, until the budget is under control.
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boycotts are a lawful and useful tool.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The ability to sell your goods or services is. If you choose to combine the selling of your labour along with other people within the same employer you should be able to. If you and your associated decide to hold out on providing your service to the company it is their right. If you and your associates make a contract with the employer that they will only use the services provided by you or your associates that is a right
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Except for one important thing. People who want to become teachers in the public sector HAVE to join unions, unless they go to charter schools. If people have to choose between their dream of teaching and joining a union, they have to join the union; and the union has power over you. The goods and services are ultimately between the teacher and the school board, with the union that is supposed to be safe-guarding worker rights operating as the middle person. Right now, it is the union that controls the school system, not the service or the patron. So your thinking is a little incorrect here.

Teacher tenure has made it so that teachers can never be fired no matter how poor their performance. That's not reality, and it needs to change. Period. End of discussion. Nothing more needs to be said about how wrong that is.

Lord Tammerlain said:
Having the government mandate that Dell has to use Intell chips along with AMD computer chips is a violation of Intel and of Dells rights to form contracts. If at the end of said contract the buyer of said goods or services does not want to purchase those goods or services (in this case labour) by all means dont buy those services.
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Comparing teaching to manufacturing is a moot argument. Let's compare teachers to other service providers.

1 in 57 doctors loses their license. 1 in 92 lawyers loses their license. 1 in 2,500 teachers loses their teaching credentials. Outrageous.

Lord Tammerlain said:
Overall in a capitalist system everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Greed is good, is it not.
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We don't live in a pure capitalist / free market system. There are regulations and controls in place (one of which is, actually, the unions themselves), and they are needed.

Lord Tammerlain said:
What I object to is the method of trying to limit the union. If the gov of wisconsin tried just to actually drive a hard bargin and lower compensation I would be fine with that. He took a cowards way out because he does not have the stomach to lock out the union as a means to drive down compensation costs
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I'm not saying I agree with how Walker did it, so let's be clear on that. I'm talking about the problem of unions in general. Ultimately the unions have to be balanced with public needs and costs. I don't necesarily buy the line that the WI state budget is so tight that the collective bargaining rights have to be removed - Walker could probably find the money elsewhere. In terms of the the education system, as a whole it is very stagnant right now, and for once the solution is quite simple. A school can't function without good teachers. They are the core. If the teachers suck, then the students drop out, and the local communities deteriorate. The ability to fire principals and crappy teachers is ESSENTIAL to reform.
 
MaggieD said:
Huh??? So unless someone is a member of a union they are struggling for bare subsistence? Less than 12% of American workers belong to unions. Most of the rest of us, BWG, are doin' just fine.
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Great!! I'm happy for you and everyone else that are doing fine. I like it when the people are doing fine, union or non.

However, my post was in response to another poster that declared that some weren't doing fine due to the unions (there's that lack of personal responsibility again) - Taxpayers who cant afford to buy their own health insurance, their own retirement, their own roof and food - and the follow-up - And perhaps Non-union employees could have a decent wage, adequate retirement, nice housing, enough food for their families, health insurance, ect........

.....if they werent too damn broke after paying for yours.

MaggieD said:
I've seen this opinion expressed many times before on DP. It makes me think that unions propagandize this viewpoint to keep their members in line.
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'Opinion'? 'Propaganda'? Surely you're not saying that people shouldn't strive to improve their lot in life.

MaggieD said:
"The evil corporations..." "Us against them..." Yikes!
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Evil Corporations? Would that be the counterpart to the extortionists, goons, lazy, cigarette smoking, lazy, mob, violent, beer swilling, slobs, piss poor excuses for Americans, dictators, mediocre performers, thug union members? You know, sons and daughters, mothers and dads, friends and neighbors, American citizens.

Us against them? For years and years unions and companies have sat down at the negotiating table and ironed out their differences and settled on compromises acceptable to both sides. That civility seems to have disappeared from one side and it appears to be a one-sided all out assault on the other.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
Fortunately the unions comprise less than 12% of the American public so their power to extort compliance or punish by boycott is minimal.
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Mayor Snorkum said:
You mean, the level everyone else in the state is working to, and the level which the unions are making it more difficult if not impossible for all the other workers in the state to achieve because the unions are bankrupting the states?
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Let's see, on one hand the union is such a small, insignificant minority that their influence is minimized. On the other hand, it's that same small, insignificant union's fault (more of that lack of personal responsibility) that the non-union workers don't measure up economically because the union is so huge that it's bankrupting the states.

You don't think these things through very well, do you?

Almost every state is experiencing some sort of financial trouble. Who's the cons scapegoat in the 'right-to-work' states?
 
Temporal said:
Except for one important thing. People who want to become teachers in the public sector HAVE to join unions, unless they go to charter schools. If people have to choose between their dream of teaching and joining a union, they have to join the union; and the union has power over you. The goods and services are ultimately between the teacher and the school board, with the union that is supposed to be safe-guarding worker rights operating as the middle person. Right now, it is the union that controls the school system, not the service or the patron. So your thinking is a little incorrect here.
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You contracdicted yourself here. The teacher can teach at a charter school, a private school. Secondly as you stated before a teaching job is not a right. The teachers and the school board created a contract that states all teachers in that school system will be part of the union . It might be a condition I might not like, just like I might not like drug testing or the hours I would have to work. You either accept those conditions or you dont
Teacher tenure has made it so that teachers can never be fired no matter how poor their performance. That's not reality, and it needs to change. Period. End of discussion. Nothing more needs to be said about how wrong that is.
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And that is something that can be negotiated at the next contract
Comparing teaching to manufacturing is a moot argument. Let's compare teachers to other service providers.

1 in 57 doctors loses their license. 1 in 92 lawyers loses their license. 1 in 2,500 teachers loses their teaching credentials. Outrageous.



We don't live in a pure capitalist / free market system. There are regulations and controls in place (one of which is, actually, the unions themselves), and they are needed.



I'm not saying I agree with how Walker did it, so let's be clear on that. I'm talking about the problem of unions in general. Ultimately the unions have to be balanced with public needs and costs. I don't necesarily buy the line that the WI state budget is so tight that the collective bargaining rights have to be removed - Walker could probably find the money elsewhere. In terms of the the education system, as a whole it is very stagnant right now, and for once the solution is quite simple. A school can't function without good teachers. They are the core. If the teachers suck, then the students drop out, and the local communities deteriorate. The ability to fire principals and crappy teachers is ESSENTIAL to reform.
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Lord Tammerlain said:
And that is something that can be negotiated at the next contract
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If we have learned anything from Public Sector Union Slobs over the last 5 decades......

.........its always "the next contract".......and never "the current contract"........

Sure the Unions will correct the wrongdoings.....as long as your patience is eternal.
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Badmutha said:
If we have learned anything from Public Sector Union Slobs over the last 5 decades......

.........its always "the next contract".......and never "the current contract"........

Sure the Unions will correct the wrongdoings.....as long as your patience is eternal.
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Of course it is at the next contract

Contracts are legal document that have a specific time frame in which they are enforced. You know the whole legal aspect. Why if we could just break contracts, you would never get a mortgage, a car loan, the NFL would not exist or MLB.

It is also not up to the union to correct the "wrong doing" it is the people they are negotiating the contract with. If the government or taxpayers feel the compensation for the positions are too high, be a tough negotiator and lock the union out. It is possible you know.
 
William Rea said:
...and allowed in a free country.
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So how do we Private Market Workers and Businesses return the favor.....and conduct a boycott of UNION THUG SERVICES INC?
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Lord Tammerlain said:
Of course it is at the next contract

Contracts are legal document that have a specific time frame in which they are enforced. You know the whole legal aspect. Why if we could just break contracts, you would never get a mortgage, a car loan, the NFL would not exist or MLB.

It is also not up to the union to correct the "wrong doing" it is the people they are negotiating the contract with. If the government or taxpayers feel the compensation for the positions are too high, be a tough negotiator and lock the union out. It is possible you know.
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You know what, after reading all these post, I'm beginning to think that being a teacher in the US must be one of the highest paid cushy numbers going. I'm thinking about applying for a job there it sounds like a license to print money. I guess that if it was that way then there would be a huge backlog of people applying for teaching to get in on this nice little number.
 
Badmutha said:
So how do we Private Market Workers and Businesses return the favor.....and conduct a boycott of UNION THUG SERVICES INC?
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do whatever is legal and useful. whining is not useful.
 
Badmutha said:
So how do we Private Market Workers and Businesses return the favor.....and conduct a boycott of UNION THUG SERVICES INC?
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You seem to have all the answers, you tell me.
 
William Rea said:
You know what, after reading all these post, I'm beginning to think that being a teacher in the US must be one of the highest paid cushy numbers going. I'm thinking about applying for a job there it sounds like a license to print money. I guess that if it was that way then there would be a huge backlog of people applying for teaching to get in on this nice little number.
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Well if its a Public School teacher.....you can look forward to a Bloated Salary, Gold Plated Health Care, Diamond Inlayed Pension, a lifetime exemption from accountability and responsibility, and a license to do just about anything without fear of being fired.........

.........and the cherry on top......your fellow Poor and Middle Class countrymen, most of whom have a smaller salary and fewer benefits, will be footing your entire bill.

So you have that going for you.......
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William Rea said:
You seem to have all the answers, you tell me.
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Well we Private Market Serfs and Commoners have but two choices.......

"Put the money in the bag, or the government is sending men with guns to your door"

So much for boycotts being allowed in a "Free" country huh?
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Badmutha said:
Well if its a Public School teacher.....you can look forward to a Bloated Salary, Gold Plated Health Care, Diamond Inlayed Pension, a lifetime exemption from accountability and responsibility, and a license to do just about anything without fear of being fired.........

.........and the cherry on top......your fellow Poor and Middle Class countrymen, most of whom have a smaller salary and fewer benefits, will be footing your entire bill.

So you have that going for you.......
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So there must be a huge amount of people applying for these jobs, thousands of graduates training to take these lucrative posts?
 
Badmutha said:
But of course........and when it doesnt happen in the next contract.....the union promises it will be the contract after that.
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It is not the unions job to lower the compensation its members receive, it is the employers job to negotiate lower compensation in the contract
 
Badmutha said:
Well we Private Market Serfs and Commoners have but two choices.......

"Put the money in the bag, or the government is sending men with guns to your door"

So much for boycotts being allowed in a "Free" country huh?
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you could send your kids to a private school. you could join the pta. you could run for office.
 
Badmutha said:
Well we Private Market Serfs and Commoners have but two choices.......

"Put the money in the bag, or the government is sending men with guns to your door"

So much for boycotts being allowed in a "Free" country huh?
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A conspiracy theory is your serious answer?
 
randel said:
this last election really wasnt about taxes...it was more frustration with how the economy was, and that it wasnt improving as fast as people liked...takes more than 2 years to fix the disaster obama walked into ...especially when it was quite a few years in the making.
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Ya'll worn that talking point plum out. :rofl
 
Guy Incognito said:
:Roflma: You don't get how free markets work, do you? The tax payer isn't "the customer," and neither public employee unions nor taxes are in part of a "free" market. You're talking about a distorted, unfree market, and you don't even realize it:lol: It'd be funny if it wasn't sad that people like you represent a large swath of conservatism. How can you claim to respect the free market when you don't even understand it?
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Tax payers are customers and if they don't like the product the government gives them for their money, they vote to change the government to one that will give them the product they wish to purchase.

It's not a hard concept to understand. I think you're just over-complicating things.
 
liblady said:
boycotts are a lawful and useful tool.
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Well, if you think it's a good idea for labor unions to associate themselves with killing working class jobs, then keep on keepin' on.
 
apdst said:
Tax payers are customers and if they don't like the product the government gives them for their money, they vote to change the government to one that will give them the product they wish to purchase.

It's not a hard concept to understand. I think you're just over-complicating things.
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Taxpayer are the customers of the government not of the union

The unions customers are its members. You do not deal with the union, you deal with the government and its employees
 
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