• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee

Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Objective Voice said:
I hope you're referring to a specific state's actions here because I've been a state employee for 8 yrs and I'm not a union member and no one is forcing me to become one.
Click to expand...

Hi, OJ. You can thank your state's right-to-work legislation for giving you that choice. Twenty-eight states do not have right-to-work laws; their union shops are "closed," meaning that anyone working for the company covered under the union contract is required to be a member.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Objective Voice said:
I hope you're referring to a specific state's actions here because I've been a state employee for 8 yrs and I'm not a union member and no one is forcing me to become one.
Click to expand...

Obviously not all states, but it does happen.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

justabubba said:
under federal law a union CANNOT use union dues to make political contributions

the union can establish a pac for the union members to voluntarily contribute for the benefit of political funding in the union's interests

so, it is again very evident that you don't know what you are posting about

personally, i believe that there should be no political contributions allowed other than from registered voters - subject to individual caps - and then they can only contribute to political candidates who - if they prevail in primaries - could have their names placed on the ballot the registered voter would have before them
all political contributions should be required to be posted to an established publicly accessible website and any contributions not listed would be found to be illegal bribes, for which the giver and the receiver would both be subject to judicial punishment

this would exclude any union contributions, any corporate contributions, any foreign interest contributions, any lobbyist contributions. additionally, those of means would be unable to fund candidates in districts other than those in which they are registered to vote

no longer would we have the best government money can buy

government would again be truly representative of the people
Click to expand...

What law is that?
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

haymarket said:
Reality seems to be getting in the way of your ideology:

The Gap Between Statutory and Real Corporate Tax Rates
Click to expand...

This is bunk. The percentage of taxation on profits doesn't decrease. :rofl

Ya'll really need to stop reading this propaganda.

I love Leftists scream about, "loopholes", too. Where are those loopholes? Better question, what are they. I want some of that, too.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Public pensions, in addition to being paid for by taxpayers as everyone points out, ALSO are not only guaranteed by tax payers, but their investment risk is ALSO backed by taxpayers.

Wisconson pensions use around 8% discount rate to value their pension investments. Private industry uses 6%.
How can public pensions take the risk to get that extra 2% compounded over a lifetime of work (30+ years?)?

Well, beacuse they are the government, and can back that risk since they know they will always be there, nor real risk of going out of business, and worst case they do, the fed picks up the tab.

It's a travesty of the market and everyone knows it...that's why they are steadily going away.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

hazlnut said:
Why is that overcompensation?



Well, they've have the money if they stop giving tax breaks to corporations. -- Yes, the part of the story Foxies don't get.
Click to expand...
It's overcompensation for two reasons. One, they have the highest, or second highest compensation in the United States. Secondly, it obivously shows, since they have the second highest public pension debt, next to my beloved Illinois. The fact that the public sector gets upset about tax breaks is beyond me, they're merely getting upset that the government won't take away a company's profit and give it to them through a legal theft process, called tax.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

whysoserious said:
Do you have a link for any of that info? You can't just go around throwing miscellaneous stats around like they are fact. Here are some actual stats for you (not that you'll read them):

U.S. Uncut, "Progressive Tea Party," Demands Corporations Pay Their Taxes - Blogcritics Politics


What The Top U.S. Companies Pay In Taxes - Forbes.com

Go Tar Heels!

And Exxon says they don't need to disclose how much tax they pay to us:


And how about General Electric:


So, what world do you live in, sir?
Click to expand...

Here is the list of effective tax rates for some various corporations (from your cited Forbes article):
1) Wal-Mart-34.2%
2) Exon Mobil-47%
3) Chevron-43%
4) Conoco Phillips-51%
5) AT&T-32.4%

Seems to me many of our employers (not all) are indeed paying their fair share in taxes.

Regardless, you are missing the bigger picture, With such punitive corporate tax rates in this country, many large companies are going off shore to shelter income! If you would open your mind to what is going on, you would then possibly start seeing the trees in the forest instead of being blinded by your own political dogma. Companies shelter income to avoid taxes. Yet guys like yourself keep complaining that they are not paying enough. Your consistent mantra, 'tax them more and more' is resulting in them (corporations) in sheltering more and more. Its no wonder why companies like GE hide income. As a shareholder in many of these companies, I applaud their margin saving measures!

If you want to see these corporations start paying more--REDUCE THE CORPORATE TAX RATES, which incentivizes multi-national corporations (which all of these are) into paying taxes in the United States instead of abroad. Yet your monolithic thinking still calls for increasing their taxes.

Remember this fact: Countries compete against each other on many different levels, one of which is tax rates. If it ever becomes advantageous to pay taxes in the United States, companies would flock to the U.S. to pay their taxes AND HIRE OUR CITIZENS. I can't help it if you fail to see this.

I stand behind my original commentary.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

upsideguy said:
...and what country do you live in? Here, in the United States, the tax rates on corporations appear quite high, but no one takes them seriously, as most large corporations do not pay taxes. In fact, the corporate contribution to overall receipts has been steadily dropping for years, replaced by payroll taxes. Payroll taxes are levied disproportionately on the lowest wage earns (the five figure crowd)....

You can go ahead and be naive and simplistic about how the real world works while a very damaging trend of bifrucating the US economy into some type of third world country that has rich and poor and nothing in between weakens the foundation of this country.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! Corporate tax contributions will continue to decrease until such time as corporate tax rates start to fall. In an over-taxed society multi-national corporations will continue to shelter income until such time as TAX RATES ARE REDUCED TO MORE COMPETITIVE LEVELS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is just more advantageous to pay foreign taxes than taxes in the United States.

Until liberals like yourself understand this basic lesson in human behavior (corporations are run by humans) you will fail achieve the tax revenues you crave.

Should Obama be successful in closing these so call 'tax loopholes', (they are not tax loopholes but that is what he calls them) then two things will happen. 1) corporations will pass the tax on to the consumer, weakening the middle class even further 2) they will continue to go offshore in their hiring. Either way the middle class will suffer and guys like you will continue to spew forth your 'tax the rich' filth.

BTW: If you want to stop the US economy from turning into a 'third world country' the only savior is to tax corporations AND INDIVIDUALS less, not more.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

DontDoIt said:
It's overcompensation for two reasons. One, they have the highest, or second highest compensation in the United States.
Click to expand...

$78,000 is the second highest salary in the U.S. -- Where'd you get that winner?


Secondly, it obivously shows, since they have the second highest public pension debt, next to my beloved Illinois. The fact that the public sector gets upset about tax breaks is beyond me, they're merely getting upset that the government won't take away a company's profit and give it to them through a legal theft process, called tax.
Click to expand...

I get it, you're one of the people who don't like to pay taxes. I guess the hundred of public services that benefit you, directly or indirectly, every single day all just magically happen.

So, please tell name one privately owned business that makes no use of public services--including roads, streets, police, fire... Is their home office on the moon?
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

we're not getting what we pay for

gao, govt accountability office, congressional audit of authority, yesterday, march 1: a full HALF TRILLION dollars of WASTE and DUPLICATION of bureaucratic arrogance, largesse, incompetence, corruption...

and "most came in fiscal years 2009 and 2010"

that's g-a-o, gentlepeople

a HALF A TRILLION---pfft

reported TUESDAY, march 1

and you want to give these grafters MORE?

no wonder you got so hellaciously shellacked on tsunami tuesday

Gov't Watchdog IDs Billions In Federal Waste - Politics News Story - WSMV Nashville

GAO Finds Massive Waste, Duplication - FoxBusiness.com

and don't forget what we're facing, folks---a housing market which popped and brought us here and is still no basement in sight, the states are facing TWO POINT FIVE TRILLION of unfunded public pensions, the states are straining with another QUARTER TRIL via medicaid's expansion, unfunded liabilities in medicare and social security approach the combined gdp of the entire planet, service on the debt---mere INTEREST ALONE---will approach a full ONE TRILLION DOLLARS per year by just after mid decade (according to the nyt), fannie and fred could cost another HALF T...

debate, anyone?
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

hazlnut said:
$78,000 is the second highest salary in the U.S. -- Where'd you get that winner?




I get it, you're one of the people who don't like to pay taxes. I guess the hundred of public services that benefit you, directly or indirectly, every single day all just magically happen.

So, please tell name one privately owned business that makes no use of public services--including roads, streets, police, fire... Is their home office on the moon?
Click to expand...

If you privatized roads, streets, police, fire and everything else not only would things run a hell of a lot cheaper, but the roads would be smoother, the streets cleaner, the police would catch more criminals, and the fire department would take less time to respond to an emergency.

While I can't intellectually give you an answer to your question, I can respond with another question you can't answer...name me one governmental agency that does not use the services of some privately held company? Name just one...you can't do it either.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Nevergolfpar said:
If you privatized roads, streets, police, fire and everything else not only would things run a hell of a lot cheaper, but the roads would be smoother, the streets cleaner, the police would catch more criminals, and the fire department would take less time to respond to an emergency.

While I can't intellectually give you an answer to your question, I can respond with another question you can't answer...name me one governmental agency that does not use the services of some privately held company? Name just one...you can't do it either.
Click to expand...

:lamo

Why don't you ask California what happens when you privatize public-run services. See Enron and Calinfornia's energy crisis. It's a terrible, terrrrrrrible idea. You will literally get raped of your money.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Nevergolfpar said:
EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! Corporate tax contributions will continue to decrease until such time as corporate tax rates start to fall. In an over-taxed society multi-national corporations will continue to shelter income until such time as TAX RATES ARE REDUCED TO MORE COMPETITIVE LEVELS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is just more advantageous to pay foreign taxes than taxes in the United States.

Until liberals like yourself understand this basic lesson in human behavior (corporations are run by humans) you will fail achieve the tax revenues you crave.

Should Obama be successful in closing these so call 'tax loopholes', (they are not tax loopholes but that is what he calls them) then two things will happen. 1) corporations will pass the tax on to the consumer, weakening the middle class even further 2) they will continue to go offshore in their hiring. Either way the middle class will suffer and guys like you will continue to spew forth your 'tax the rich' filth.

BTW: If you want to stop the US economy from turning into a 'third world country' the only savior is to tax corporations AND INDIVIDUALS less, not more.
Click to expand...

thank you for that economics for dummies presentation

seems you do not understand that tax rates have fallen to the lowest rates in over 50 years

the shrub and the neocons who misguided his regime turned a net surplus into a massive deficit
during his watch the USA went from being the world's foremost creditor nation to the world's major debtor nation
and what was the republican/neocon mantra over that span? lower tax rates
it was the presumed panacea for any problem
and we now recognize - at least those of us who care to look - that it resulted in a great recession
yet that is the fiscal policy you continue to advocate
two words: pa thetic
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

justabubba said:
thank you for that economics for dummies presentation

seems you do not understand that tax rates have fallen to the lowest rates in over 50 years

the shrub and the neocons who misguided his regime turned a net surplus into a massive deficit
during his watch the USA went from being the world's foremost creditor nation to the world's major debtor nation
and what was the republican/neocon mantra over that span? lower tax rates
it was the presumed panacea for any problem
and we now recognize - at least those of us who care to look - that it resulted in a great recession
yet that is the fiscal policy you continue to advocate
two words: pa thetic
Click to expand...

This is the difference between a liberal and a conservative, while you see the tax cuts as the cause of our collapsed economy, I see it as just as much a spending problem. Even in the best of times ( the Clinton years) our nation debt still rose every year, that was with a deep defense spending cuts, and at the time the largest tax increase in our history, and robbing our SS fund to boot. Yet with all this, we still seen our nation debt rise over 1.5 trillion dollars.

Now that reality has caught up with us, liberal see the whole thing as a tax problem, and want to find someone to blame, and will blame anything other then our unrestrained spending for the last 30 or 40 years.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Walker's plan still allows public unions collective bargaining rights over wages. If public unions pay 100% of their pension and benefit programs why are they upset about losing collective bargaining over fringe benefits and pensions?
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

justabubba said:
thank you for that economics for dummies presentation

seems you do not understand that tax rates have fallen to the lowest rates in over 50 years

the shrub and the neocons who misguided his regime turned a net surplus into a massive deficit
during his watch the USA went from being the world's foremost creditor nation to the world's major debtor nation
and what was the republican/neocon mantra over that span? lower tax rates
it was the presumed panacea for any problem
and we now recognize - at least those of us who care to look - that it resulted in a great recession
yet that is the fiscal policy you continue to advocate
two words: pa thetic
Click to expand...

With all due respect you have no idea about which you pontificate. You might actually consider sticking to topics you know something about--economics is not one of them.

If you read my post, you would understand that the rate at which income is taxed is NOT the issue. It is the RATE INCOME IS TAXED RELATIVE TO THE RATE INCOME IS TAXED IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, which is the issue. If the combined Federal/State/local corporate tax rate is 48% in the United States and it is only 34% in Mexico where do you think multi-national corporations will elect to pay taxes if given a choice?

Not only is your economics deficient, but you my also wish to stay out of the history forums as well as your recollection of recent history is as bad as your economics.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

whysoserious said:
:lamo

Why don't you ask California what happens when you privatize public-run services. See Enron and Calinfornia's energy crisis. It's a terrible, terrrrrrrible idea. You will literally get raped of your money.
Click to expand...

Let's pull out the score card and evaluate: Enron 65 billion in loses.....Various states teacher pension systems 932.5 billion in loses. If Enron was a raping, what does that make the publicly control teacher pension programs?
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Nevergolfpar said:
If you privatized roads, streets, police, fire and everything else not only would things run a hell of a lot cheaper,
Click to expand...

You mean like health care?

Because private companies don't have to make a profit.

Your opening comment has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Let's see where you go from there...

but the roads would be smoother, the streets cleaner, the police would catch more criminals, and the fire department would take less time to respond to an emergency.
Click to expand...

Right, because American companies like GM and Chrysler make great stuff. Smooth and safe like an oil rig?

And how are those private prisons working out... with the law suits and all?

While I can't intellectually give you an answer to your question, I can respond with another question you can't answer...name me one governmental agency that does not use the services of some privately held company? Name just one...you can't do it either.
Click to expand...

Paraphrasing: "I'll doge your question by asking you one that really doesn't relate but sounds good."
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Nevergolfpar said:
With all due respect you have no idea about which you pontificate. You might actually consider sticking to topics you know something about--economics is not one of them.

If you read my post, you would understand that the rate at which income is taxed is NOT the issue. It is the RATE INCOME IS TAXED RELATIVE TO THE RATE INCOME IS TAXED IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, which is the issue. If the combined Federal/State/local corporate tax rate is 48% in the United States and it is only 34% in Mexico where do you think multi-national corporations will elect to pay taxes if given a choice?

Not only is your economics deficient, but you my also wish to stay out of the history forums as well as your recollection of recent history is as bad as your economics.
Click to expand...

yes our higher tax rates are causing the mexican people to find ways to illegally move into and reside within the USA [/sarcasm]
could the reason for business relocation to mexico be the lower cost of labor there? of course not, it must only be the tax rate you insist
and yet you seem not to understand that if the tax laws make huge portions of revenues be found as untaxable income - and our tax laws are rife with such loopholes - then excluding those revenues from being subject to taxation far offsets any difference in tax rates
a reality you conveniently ignore ... apparently due to your "mastery" of things economic
and i do understand why you want me to quit responding rebuttals to your lame posts. you do not want such stupidity exposed
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

whysoserious said:
:lamo

Why don't you ask California what happens when you privatize public-run services. See Enron and Calinfornia's energy crisis. It's a terrible, terrrrrrrible idea. You will literally get raped of your money.
Click to expand...

Why would you ask California anything?

Every government program they have was bankrupt 10 years ago.
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

hazlnut said:
You mean like health care?
Click to expand...

Exactly like health care. Healthcare costs in America didn't start spiraling out of control until the years after the federal governmental passed medicare and medicaid.

Because private companies don't have to make a profit.[/QUOTE said:
Profit is not an evil word. The lack of accountability for failure to make a profit or reel in out of control costs is why the public sector will fail every time. The public sector is incentivized by maintaining a power base, and spending as much money as possible to stay in power. The private sector is incentivized by maximizing revenues at the lowest possible cost. If given a choice between profit and power which is more evil?

[/QUOTE=Your opening comment has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Let's see where you go from there...
Click to expand...

No you have me beat, hands down

[/QUOTE=Right, because American companies like GM and Chrysler make great stuff. Smooth and safe like an oil rig?[/QUOTE]

I'm not fond of either company, too many big government liberals working for both companies. I prefer BMW's, now thats a for profit company that makes a damn good product.

[/QUOTE=And how are those private prisons working out... with the law suits and all?[/QUOTE]

Honestly I do not know enough about the topic to be say for sure. However, my guess is they are highly regulated, much like the casino business and Hospitals. As a result, they will probably fail until such time arrives when they can shed the shackles of suppressing state regulations. Until such time arrives the results will be mixed. I would cite companies such as UPS or American Express as the models for truly private companies who have succeeded where the government failed. These companies have both beat the USPS at their own game.
 
Last edited:
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

it looks like a done deal in ohio

Ohio Advances Curbs on Public Unions - WSJ.com

this is not surprising, the pros saw it coming quite awhile ago, due to the composition of the buckeye legislature

what's going on in ohio and wisconsin is sweeping the nation, and the wave is huge

in each particular locality, it's just going to be a matter of degree

fyi
 
Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

Nevergolfpar said:
Exactly like health care. Healthcare costs in America didn't start spiraling out of control until the years after the federal governmental passed medicare and medicaid.

Profit is not an evil word. The lack of accountability for failure to make a profit or reel in out of control costs is why the public sector will fail every time. The public sector is incentivized by maintaining a power base, and spending as much money as possible to stay in power. The private sector is incentivized by maximizing revenues at the lowest possible cost. If given a choice between profit and power which is more evil?
Click to expand...

NeverGolfPar, when you want to start the quote, you don't use the slash. The [/QUOTE] stops the quote. To start it, it's just
.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom