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Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

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randel said:
laws can be changed, and are changed all the time, that is why big business has people in washington to lobby for them, to change laws, to make them more favorable to business...laws on the books don't mean squat if they are not enforced...and conservative...still collecting that social security check? you know, that 'entitlement' benefit that you lobby so hard against?
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Yep, still collecting what I contributed over the years and taking that money and donating to the charity of MY choice not yours. Laws can be changed and that is why we have elections. The will of the people has been changed to the will of the liberal elite. Like all liberals losing politicians always run when they don't get their way.

Still waiting for you to tell us where the public unions get the money to pay their union dues? Results to union employees only matter when those results support their union rhetoric. It must suck for people to have so little self esteem that they cannot take care of themselves and require others to bargain for them. Never joined a union in my 35 years in the business world and never felt compelled to have someone else bargain for me. It really is a shame that someone as intelligent as you would delegate that ability to someone else. Any thoughts that you could do better?

By the way, thank you unions for driving up costs.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/union_classic_le_en_jrQKCmKdjWQbMAtzqHASxI
 
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randel said:
i want the rest of you 'working stiffs', when you have a moment of clarity, to thank the unions for all that you have...8hr standard workday, minimum time and a half for overtime, weekends off, paid vacations, holidays such as christmas, thanksgiving.....not to mention improved health and safety rules, the 'unions' keeping the pressure on osha, which does nothing more than enforce(if that, more often a small fine) bare minimum standards, NOT THE STANDARDS THAT ARE THE MOST SAFE, the bare minimum, and they wouldnt do that without the unions holding the flame to their feet...some of you are so blind, so set in your thinking, as to belive that nothing would change if unions were to go out of existence...every day, big business is in washington, the local statehouses, to lobby to reduce worker protections, to lobby for lower safety standards, to lobby for laws to limit how and when overtime should be paid... yeah, life would suck without unions.
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I don't care about private unions. Let them flourish. Their negotiations take place at the table with people who have a bottom line to consider. They are using their own profits or lack thereof. They can't print money. In the public sector, negotiations take place at the table with people using taxpayer money. No profit/loss considerations at all. They can print money....by raising the taxes on the rest of us who shoulder these Rolls Royce benefit plans that are so totally out of line with the private sector as to be ludicrous. And the negotiators can give away the store to enrich their own campaign coffers.

On the private side of pensions, only 11% offered defined benefit plans. On the public side, 90% of pensions are defined benefit plans. Absolutely ludicrous. Covet thy neighbor

If you don't recognize the difference between a defined benefit and defined contribution plan, do some homework. Unless you are the recipient of one, no one in good conscience can support this difference. However, I strongly suspect that those arguing so vehemently on the side of this issue are recipients of this inexcusable taxpayer largess/theft.
 
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Conservative said:
Yep, still collecting what I contributed over the years and taking that money and donating to the charity of MY choice not yours. Laws can be changed and that is why we have elections. The will of the people has been changed to the will of the liberal elite. Like all liberals losing politicians always run when they don't get their way.

Still waiting for you to tell us where the public unions get the money to pay their union dues? Results to union employees only matter when those results support their union rhetoric. It must suck for people to have so little self esteem that they cannot take care of themselves and require others to bargain for them. Never joined a union in my 35 years in the business world and never felt compelled to have someone else bargain for me. It really is a shame that someone as intelligent as you would delegate that ability to someone else. Any thoughts that you could do better?
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i'm union proud buddy, i've worked in both union and non union shops, and definitely prefer a union shop, where i can have a voice, where i can be represented, where my boss just can't steamroll me out the door because he doesnt like the sports teams i'm a fan of, or he doesnt like me because i won't kiss his ass....i like knowing my boss has to have a VALID reason to be rid of me...oh, and conservative, you donating that entire social security check to charity? also, perhaps you should take a few more civics classes...just sayin'
 
MaggieD said:
I don't care about private unions. Let them flourish. Their negotiations take place at the table with people who have a bottom line to consider. They are using their own profits or lack thereof. They can't print money. In the public sector, negotiations take place at the table with people using taxpayer money. No profit/loss considerations at all. They can print money....by raising the taxes on the rest of us who shoulder these Rolls Royce benefit plans that are so totally out of line with the private sector as to be ludicrous. And the negotiators can give away the store to enrich their own campaign coffers.

On the private side of pensions, only 11% offered defined benefit plans. On the public side, 90% of pensions are defined benefit plans. Absolutely ludicrous. Covet thy neighbor

If you don't recognize the difference between a defined benefit and defined contribution plan, do some homework. Unless you are the recipient of one, no one in good conscience can support this difference. However, I strongly suspect that those arguing so vehemently on the side of this issue are recipients of this inexcusable taxpayer largess/theft.
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what this comes down to, i've said it before, is union busting...my union brothers and sisters in wisconsin have already said that they will pick up more of the cost of their befefits...and i've also said before, if the governor wants to phase in something like a 401k plan in place of pensions, i'd be ok with that to....all the governor wants to do is break the unions, when all he has to do is come to the bargaining table, and he will get the concessions that he wants....this could be over monday if he would sit down today. and again, for the record, i recieve neither government nor will i receive an employer pension...but i do support my union brothers and sisters in wisconsin, who are in a fight with a governor who wants to screw them over.
 
randel said:
what this comes down to, i've said it before, is union busting...my union brothers and sisters in wisconsin have already said that they will pick up more of the cost of their befefits...and i've also said before, if the governor wants to phase in something like a 401k plan in place of pensions, i'd be ok with that to....all the governor wants to do is break the unions, when all he has to do is come to the bargaining table, and he will get the concessions that he wants....this could be over monday if he would sit down today. and again, for the record, i recieve neither government nor will i receive an employer pension...but i do support my union brothers and sisters in wisconsin, who are in a fight with a governor who wants to screw them over.
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You keep saying it's union busting. What say you to the fact that these Wisconsin public sector workers would still have more rights to negotiate than Federal employees? Or are those working in the Federal government peons being downtrodden by their masters?

Since you are a member of a union, why don't you get a pension? Closed shop? If it weren't, your union would work harder to get you a pension.
 
randel said:
i'm union proud buddy, i've worked in both union and non union shops, and definitely prefer a union shop, where i can have a voice, where i can be represented, where my boss just can't steamroll me out the door because he doesnt like the sports teams i'm a fan of, or he doesnt like me because i won't kiss his ass....i like knowing my boss has to have a VALID reason to be rid of me...oh, and conservative, you donating that entire social security check to charity? also, perhaps you should take a few more civics classes...just sayin'
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Of course you do because you lack initiative and drive to accomplish anything on your own. It must really frustrate you that I control my own money and my own success. I invested in SS for 35 years and will let you know when that investment runs out. Since you don't seem to understand investments and returns I doubt you will understand it though.

I remember well a famous baseball manager, Walter Alston of the then Brooklyn Dodgers, who operated on a series of one year contracts. That is the way I operated in my 35 year career. I have no problem being held accountable for results and no problem getting money back that I was forced to contribute to SS even though that forced contributions cost me well over a million dollars in personal net worth.

You do make a good union employee though, defending the indefensible and taking money from your employer without concern for company success. IMO many union employees get more than they are worth and wouldn't be surprised that you are one of those people.
 
MaggieD said:
You keep saying it's union busting. What say you to the fact that these Wisconsin public sector workers would still have more rights to negotiate than Federal employees? Or are those working in the Federal government peons being downtrodden by their masters?

Since you are a member of a union, why don't you get a pension? Closed shop? If it weren't, your union would work harder to get you a pension.
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lot of misconceptions out there maggie, even though i'm a member of the uaw, i work for a parts supplier, and being a member of uaw, doesnt guarantee that i get a pension..and a closed shop has nothing to do with it...and yes, this is union busting...the governor is taking the first steps toward making wisconsin into a 'right to work' state....sorry, i don't support someone being able to come into my shop, decline to join my union, but yet, enjoy the same wages/ benefits and protections that my union brothers and sisters have negotiated, without helping pay for the enforcement/ administration of that contract.
 
randel said:
lot of misconceptions out there maggie, even though i'm a member of the uaw, i work for a parts supplier, and being a member of uaw, doesnt guarantee that i get a pension..and a closed shop has nothing to do with it...and yes, this is union busting...the governor is taking the first steps toward making wisconsin into a 'right to work' state....sorry, i don't support someone being able to come into my shop, decline to join my union, but yet, enjoy the same wages/ benefits and protections that my union brothers and sisters have negotiated, without helping pay for the enforcement/ administration of that contract.
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You say the governor is taking the first steps toward making Wisconsin into a right-to-work state. I say he is taking steps to give the taxpayer a voice: no more collective bargaining on wages...something Fed employees have never had...no more increases in pay above the CPI without a taxpayer vote. Further, that a vote will be taken every year to make sure that employees still want to pay their union dues. What could be more democratic than that, Randel?

I do have to say that I respect your opinion more than others because you don't receive a pension. And you are a union member. I personally don't know how anyone not receiving a pension, who relies primarily on Social Security and maybe a 401K, could not resent the Rolls Royce pension plans they are forced to pay for through their taxes....
 
MaggieD said:
You say the governor is taking the first steps toward making Wisconsin into a right-to-work state. I say he is taking steps to give the taxpayer a voice: no more collective bargaining on wages...something Fed employees have never had...no more increases in pay above the CPI without a taxpayer vote. Further, that a vote will be taken every year to make sure that employees still want to pay their union dues. What could be more democratic than that, Randel?

I do have to say that I respect your opinion more than others because you don't receive a pension. And you are a union member. I personally don't know how anyone not receiving a pension, who relies primarily on Social Security and maybe a 401K, could not resent the Rolls Royce pension plans they are forced to pay for through their taxes....
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i have believed for a long time, before i was union, that 'pensions' are going the way of the dinosaur...as for giving the choice to pay union dues or not, THAT is the first step to making wisconsin a 'right to work' state....and i don't believe it will stop there, there will be attempts to apply that to all unions...i don't support that one bit.
 
from Conservative to Randel

Of course you do because you lack initiative and drive to accomplish anything on your own.
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How dare you the temerity to presume to judge if another poster lacks initiative or drive simply because they support their legal right to be in a union.

Shame on you. Such arrogance and elitism is tantamount to a personal insult. It serves your cause very poorly.
 
haymarket said:
from Conservative to Randel



How dare you the temerity to presume to judge if another poster lacks initiative or drive simply because they support their legal right to be in a union.

Shame on you. Such arrogance and elitism is tantamount to a personal insult. It serves your cause very poorly.
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thank you haymarket...i didnt deem his post really worthy of any discussion.
 
from Turtle

you really go into hysterics when the death tax is called a death tax.
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NO. I go into calling a liar a liar mode when some right wing zealot attempt to lie to everyone and call an estate tax in his own state a death tax when even his own state government and the people who write the laws - man of which are REPUBLICANS - call it an Estate Tax.
 
randel said:
thank you haymarket...i didnt deem his post really worthy of any discussion.
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You are welcome. I really think all of us here have to start refusing to lie down for such insults. This has to stop and stop now.
 
randel said:
i have believed for a long time, before i was union, that 'pensions' are going the way of the dinosaur...as for giving the choice to pay union dues or not, THAT is the first step to making wisconsin a 'right to work' state....and i don't believe it will stop there, there will be attempts to apply that to all unions...i don't support that one bit.
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Pensions have indeed gone the way of the dinosaur....in the private sector. 11% of those receiving a pension in the private sector are covered by defined benefit plans. 90% in the public sector are covered by these onerous plans.

If the majority of people in the state of Wisconsin elect politicians who advocate it being a right-to-work state, would you not agree that our democracy says it ought to happen? Or do you only advocate democracy when you agree with the end result?
 
MaggieD said:
Pensions have indeed gone the way of the dinosaur....in the private sector. 11% of those receiving a pension in the private sector are covered by defined benefit plans. 90% in the public sector are covered by these onerous plans.

If the majority of people in the state of Wisconsin elect politicians who advocate it being a right-to-work state, would you not agree that our democracy says it ought to happen? Or do you only advocate democracy when you agree with the end result?
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from what i have read, while walker was big on the campaign trail with wanting the states budget to be balanced, i don't believe he really said anything about ending collective bargaining/making union dues voluntary/ having to re-certify the union every year....i believe he decieved alot of people on what his methods would be...he had some union support, which he has now lost.
 
haymarket said:
You are welcome. I really think all of us here have to start refusing to lie down for such insults. This has to stop Hopeand stop now.
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Hopefully, you, Randel, and others will heed your own advice and stop with the personal attacks as well. It works both ways. I will try to set the standard but will not take the personal attacks from anyone.
 
Despite promises from union leaders that they'd accept his proposal that government workers pay higher pension and health insurance contributions, Walker said, “over the past two weeks, even after they’ve made those promises, we’ve seen local union after local union rush to their school boards, their city councils... and rush through contracts that had no contribution to the pensions and no contribution to health care. In one case, in Janesville, they were actually pushing through a pay increase.”
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Liars. Walker shows no sign of conceding in Wis. battle - Meet the Press - msnbc.com
 
TurtleDude said:
most conservatives don't want people to be in poverty because that condition is what the rich dems use to justify the income redistribution they tap into to gain wealth and power. Most of us on the right realize that the handouts dem masters use to buy votes are deleterious to America and most americans in the long run
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What a load of horse dung that is, there is income redistribution, but it's going in the opposite direction. If conservatives cared they would do something about it, but they would do something about it.
 
MaggieD said:
This piece says there is that the public pension system in Wisconsin is fiscally sound. The truth is there is a $137 million shortfall this year. I'm sure the rest of the piece is just as accurate.
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The study presented their data. Where is yours?
 
pbrauer said:
What a load of horse dung that is, there is income redistribution, but it's going in the opposite direction. If conservatives cared they would do something about it, but they would do something about it.
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Unlike you, conservatives believe it is personal responsibility to take care of yourself and to show initiative and drive thus not needing someone else to bargain for you. Good employees don't need unions and will succeed on their own. The only redistribution going on is with liberalism who wants to keep people dependent by giving them more from the taxes that come from those that are actually paying them. It is the conservatives that don't really care how much you make. Can you say the same things about liberal elites?
 
Conservative said:
Unlike you, conservatives believe it is personal responsibility to take care of yourself and to show initiative and drive thus not needing someone else to bargain for you. Good employees don't need unions and will succeed on their own. The only redistribution going on is with liberalism who wants to keep people dependent by giving them more from the taxes that come from those that are actually paying them. It is the conservatives that don't really care how much you make. Can you say the same things about liberal elites?
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Baloney Conservative. I am willing to bet a good deal of money that you personally hire and employ people to do lots of things for you. You hire people to do things for you that you do not have the skill, education or expertise to do yourself. You hire people you need to do things for you that you cannot or will not do for yourself. You do that all the time.

That is what workers are doing in getting a labor union to look our for their behalf. No more- no less.
 
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