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Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

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Conservative said:
Where is yours that Public Unions are entitled to collective bargaining rights that Federal Public Service unions do not get?
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I think you just jumped from the letter A to the letter Z without so much as an appearance or a clever song from Elmo.
 
haymarket said:
from Conservative to Randel



How dare you the temerity to presume to judge if another poster lacks initiative or drive simply because they support their legal right to be in a union.

Shame on you. Such arrogance and elitism is tantamount to a personal insult. It serves your cause very poorly.
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He has a long history of this, I think condescension is his middle name. It's SOP for him.
 
randel said:
some here won't be happy until the average worker is working 16 hour days for pennies an hour...
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How can we compete with the Chinese if we do not??? What's more important, a healthy middle class or more wealth for the rich? What are you unpatriotic or something?
 
haymarket said:
The study presented their data. Where is yours?
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Mea Culpa. The $137 million deficit in the entire state budget. In fact, The Pew Center says the public sector pension in Wisconsin is one of the healthier pensions in the country.

I guess the public pension ox is just one that those receiving a public pension don't want gored in an effort to fix state finances.
 
MaggieD said:
Mea Culpa. The $137 million deficit in the entire state budget. In fact, The Pew Center says the public sector pension in Wisconsin is one of the healthier pensions in the country.
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Thanks Maggie for that. You are a rare person here.
 
Catawba said:
How can we compete with the Chinese if we do not??? What's more important, a healthy middle class or more wealth for the rich? What are you unpatriotic or something?
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i have now seen the errors of my ways...forgive me catawba, for i have sinned....:mrgreen:
 
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MaggieD said:
Mea Culpa. The $137 million deficit in the entire state budget.
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So it makes sense to you to give away $140 million in tax breaks to your buddies????
 
haymarket said:
Baloney Conservative. I am willing to bet a good deal of money that you personally hire and employ people to do lots of things for you. You hire people to do things for you that you do not have the skill, education or expertise to do yourself. You hire people you need to do things for you that you cannot or will not do for yourself. You do that all the time.

That is what workers are doing in getting a labor union to look our for their behalf. No more- no less.
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Lot of pure speculation there, Haymarket. None of it has anything to do with public unions and those in Wisconsin having something that "your" President hasn't even offered to the Federal public service unions.
 
Catawba said:
So it makes sense to you to give away $140 million in tax breaks to your buddies????
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I don't know enough about these tax breaks to debate them. I know that tax breaks stimulate business and are given alllll the time. This is about asking the public sector to make the same sacrifices their private sector counterparts are making every single day.
 
MaggieD said:
Mea Culpa. The $137 million deficit in the entire state budget. In fact, The Pew Center says the public sector pension in Wisconsin is one of the healthier pensions in the country.

I guess the public pension ox is just one that those receiving a public pension don't want gored in an effort to fix state finances.
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Just wait until Gov. Walker gets a hold on it.
 
MaggieD said:
I don't know enough about these tax breaks to debate them. I know that tax breaks stimulate business and are given alllll the time. This is about asking the public sector to make the same sacrifices their private sector counterparts are making every single day.
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you 'know' that tax breaks stimulate business, or is this what you have heard? don't you think asking for concessions from one group while giving breaks to another a tad bit unfair?
 
randel said:
you 'know' that tax breaks stimulate business, or is this what you have heard? don't you think asking for concessions from one group while asking less of another group is a tad bit unfair?
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Yes, I do. Just as I think asking those who receive no pension at all to pay for the Rolls Royce plans that public sector employees enjoy. I think that's terribly unfair. Also a tad unfair:

Private sector unemployment: 9+%
Public sector unemployment: 5%
 
MaggieD said:
I don't know enough about these tax breaks to debate them. I know that tax breaks stimulate business and are given alllll the time. This is about asking the public sector to make the same sacrifices their private sector counterparts are making every single day.
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The private sector has been promised $140 million in tax breaks. First I would like to see your proof they stimulate business, and second, if the are a benefit to the state as a whole, why shouldn't the taxes on everyone be raised to pay for them? Why do you suggest trying to balance the tax cuts for one class on the backs of teachers?
 
Conservative said:
Lot of pure speculation there, Haymarket. None of it has anything to do with public unions and those in Wisconsin having something that "your" President hasn't even offered to the Federal public service unions.
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Not at all as along as we remember what you said at the start of this exchange in post 1347

Unlike you, conservatives believe it is personal responsibility to take care of yourself and to show initiative and drive thus not needing someone else to bargain for you.
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and to your statement of complete self reliance and personal responsibility and taking care of yourself I told you that

I am willing to bet a good deal of money that you personally hire and employ people to do lots of things for you. You hire people to do things for you that you do not have the skill, education or expertise to do yourself. You hire people you need to do things for you that you cannot or will not do for yourself. You do that all the time.

That is what workers are doing in getting a labor union to look our for their behalf. No more- no less.




So your response completely and totally ignores your own words which produced my response.

Why would you attempt to do that? It seems really dishonest in the extreme and completely counter to honest debate and exchange.
 
Catawba said:
The private sector has been promised $140 million in tax breaks. First I would like to see your proof they stimulate business, and second, if the are a benefit to the state as a whole, why shouldn't the taxes on everyone be raised to pay for them? Why do you suggest trying to balance the tax cuts for one class on the backs of teachers?
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You'll get no proof from me because I'm not arguing that point. It's a strawman in this debate. I'm arguing that public sector workers get the finest pension plans on planet earth, that the only reason they were given those generous pensions was to buy their votes and earn union cash in the pockets of Democrats.

In the real private-sector world, employees contribute 7.65% of wages into Social Security and Medicare. In the public sector, in Wisconsin, teachers, up 'til Governor Walker, paid NOTHING. In the real private-sector world, employees are covered by 401K's and similar defined contribution plans by a wiiiide margin. The public sector is covered by defined benefit plans to the tune of 90%.

Under current collective bargaining agreements, Wisconsin teachers pay nothing toward their healthcare. It costs the state 38.8% of wages for the teachers' healthcare plans. In the real private-sector world, the average is 10.7%.

Teachers in Wisconsin get free healthcare in retirement and are eligible to retire in their 50's. The state picks up their health insurance premiums as they exist at retirement, only asking the retiree to pay the increases until they're eligible for Medicare. That is almost nonexistent in the real private-sector world.

Oh, to be a teacher in Wisconsin. Or, actually? Even better? Illinois, where I live. Robert M. Costrell: Oh, To Be a Teacher in Wisconsin - WSJ.com
 
Catawba said:
The private sector has been promised $140 million in tax breaks. First I would like to see your proof they stimulate business, and second, if the are a benefit to the state as a whole, why shouldn't the taxes on everyone be raised to pay for them? Why do you suggest trying to balance the tax cuts for one class on the backs of teachers?
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Hell will freeze over while we all wait for that evidence.
 
haymarket said:
Not at all as along as we remember what you said at the start of this exchange in post 1347



and to your statement of complete self reliance and personal responsibility and taking care of yourself I told you that

I am willing to bet a good deal of money that you personally hire and employ people to do lots of things for you. You hire people to do things for you that you do not have the skill, education or expertise to do yourself. You hire people you need to do things for you that you cannot or will not do for yourself. You do that all the time.

That is what workers are doing in getting a labor union to look our for their behalf. No more- no less.




So your response completely and totally ignores your own words which produced my response.

Why would you attempt to do that? It seems really dishonest in the extreme and completely counter to honest debate and exchange.
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So, you have a problem with a private sector employee funding someone else that creates jobs? All spending by consumers creates demand and jobs in the private sector. Public unions support the public and are paid by the public who have no collective bargaining powers over those unions. That is a conflict of interest and why FDR didn't support collective bargaining for public unions. The most pro Union President in U.S. history not supporting collective bargaining for unions! I can see why you want to ignore that
 
MaggieD said:
You'll get no proof from me because I'm not arguing that point. It's a strawman in this debate. I'm arguing that public sector workers get the finest pension plans on planet earth, that the only reason they were given those generous pensions was to buy their votes and earn union cash in the pockets of Democrats.

In the real private-sector world, employees contribute 7.65% of wages into Social Security and Medicare. In the public sector, in Wisconsin, teachers, up 'til Governor Walker, paid NOTHING. In the real private-sector world, employees are covered by 401K's and similar defined contribution plans by a wiiiide margin. The public sector is covered by defined benefit plans to the tune of 90%.

Under current collective bargaining agreements, Wisconsin teachers pay nothing toward their healthcare. It costs the state 38.8% of wages for the teachers' healthcare plans. In the real private-sector world, the average is 10.7%.

Teachers in Wisconsin get free healthcare in retirement and are eligible to retire in their 50's. The state picks up their health insurance premiums as they exist at retirement, only asking the retiree to pay the increases until they're eligible for Medicare. That is almost nonexistent in the real private-sector world.

Oh, to be a teacher in Wisconsin. Or, actually? Even better? Illinois, where I live. Robert M. Costrell: Oh, To Be a Teacher in Wisconsin - WSJ.com
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And you would be right Maggie that “I'm arguing that public sector workers get the finest pension plans on planet earth, “

…well maybe on planet earth is a bit of a stretch. :mrgreen:

Historically the public sector had to give better benefits to attract employees because of their low pay in comparison to the private sector. Not until the great recession hit that the eye of the public has focused on the benefits and the job security afforded public sector employees. AND republicans, being well schooled in roven tactics, have jumped on the bandwagon of their old nemeses the Unions.:2wave:
 
randel said:
i want the rest of you 'working stiffs', when you have a moment of clarity, to thank the unions for all that you have...8hr standard workday, minimum time and a half for overtime, weekends off, paid vacations, holidays such as christmas, thanksgiving.....not to mention improved health and safety rules, the 'unions' keeping the pressure on osha, which does nothing more than enforce(if that, more often a small fine) bare minimum standards, NOT THE STANDARDS THAT ARE THE MOST SAFE, the bare minimum, and they wouldnt do that without the unions holding the flame to their feet...some of you are so blind, so set in your thinking, as to belive that nothing would change if unions were to go out of existence...every day, big business is in washington, the local statehouses, to lobby to reduce worker protections, to lobby for lower safety standards, to lobby for laws to limit how and when overtime should be paid... yeah, life would suck without unions.
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And I want all the working stiffs to thank God for our businesses, entrepreneurs and capitalists who created the corporations that have made this nation the most prosperous in the world
 
Conservative said:
So, you have a problem with a private sector employee funding someone else that creates jobs? All spending by consumers creates demand and jobs in the private sector. Public unions support the public and are paid by the public who have no collective bargaining powers over those unions. That is a conflict of interest and why FDR didn't support collective bargaining for public unions. The most pro Union President in U.S. history not supporting collective bargaining for unions! I can see why you want to ignore that
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Here is a helpful tip for you Conservative. When you reprint the post of someone else and they post something underneath, its an indication you are relying to the thought expressed in that previous post.

Your post in reply to mine had nothing to do with my post at all. It was merely your excuse to say what you wanted to say without speaking to what I said. In the future, I would ask you to leave my posts out of it unless you speak directly to it.

i have spoken directly to your FDR point time and time and time again. So have many others.
 
TurtleDude said:
And I want all the working stiffs to thank God for our businesses, entrepreneurs and capitalists who created the corporations that have made this nation the most prosperous in the world
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Have you ever seen the great German silent expressionist film METROPOLIS? You can take your post and the one from Randel that you are replying to and you have the crux of the film.
 
MaggieD said:
You'll get no proof from me because I'm not arguing that point. It's a strawman in this debate. I'm arguing that public sector workers get the finest pension plans on planet earth, that the only reason they were given those generous pensions was to buy their votes and earn union cash in the pockets of Democrats.
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Oh, I thought that is what you said here:

I know that tax breaks stimulate business and are given alllll the time.
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So no proof? I thought you had suggested there was some kind of budget crisis. Their pensions are better because they negotiated to have better pensions due to their low salaries.

In the real private-sector world, employees contribute 7.65% of wages into Social Security and Medicare. In the public sector, in Wisconsin, teachers, up 'til Governor Walker, paid NOTHING. In the real private-sector world, employees are covered by 401K's and similar defined contribution plans by a wiiiide margin. The public sector is covered by defined benefit plans to the tune of 90%.
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In the real world college education pays better than $50,000 a year.

Under current collective bargaining agreements, Wisconsin teachers pay nothing toward their healthcare. It costs the state 38.8% of wages for the teachers' healthcare plans. In the real private-sector world, the average is 10.7%. Teachers in Wisconsin get free healthcare in retirement and are eligible to retire in their 50's. The state picks up their health insurance premiums as they exist at retirement, only asking the retiree to pay the increases until they're eligible for Medicare. That is almost nonexistent in the real private-sector world. Oh, to be a teacher in Wisconsin. Or, actually? Even better? Illinois, where I live.
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Again, is the real world private sector pay $50,000 for a 4 to 8 years of college? That's just rolling in dough as far as you are concerned?
 
haymarket said:
Here is a helpful tip for you Conservative. When you reprint the post of someone else and they post something underneath, its an indication you are relying to the thought expressed in that previous post.

Your post in reply to mine had nothing to do with my post at all. It was merely your excuse to say what you wanted to say without speaking to what I said. In the future, I would ask you to leave my posts out of it unless you speak directly to it.

i have spoken directly to your FDR point time and time and time again. So have many others.
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And you have yet to explain why the most pro union President in U.S. history made the statement against collective bargaining for public unions nor have you addressed the fact that the Wisconsin public union has more rights than the Federal Public unions indicating that all Presidents felt the same way. Obama has had two years to change that and hasn't/
 
Conservative said:
And you have yet to explain why the most pro union President in U.S. history made the statement against collective bargaining for public unions nor have you addressed the fact that the Wisconsin public union has more rights than the Federal Public unions indicating that all Presidents felt the same way. Obama has had two years to change that and hasn't/
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Are you not keeping up with the responses on this very site? Its all there for you. Just go back and look. You have been told over and over and over again that FDR expressed his personal opinion in a private letter. And FDR was not God. At least that is what all you right wingers have proclaimed for the last seventy years. He had a riht to his opinion and in this case he was incorrect. So what? The American he talked about has changed drastically. It is no longer the Thirties anymore.

My calendar on the wall says 2011. What does yours say Conservative? 1936?
The president in universe is Barack Omaba. Who is president in your world Conservative? FDR?

You seem to feel you really have some winning ace here to play and trump everyone else. Guess what? We don't care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAp-T8Gklw0&feature=related
 
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haymarket said:
Are you not keeping up with the responses on this very site? Its all there for you. Just go back and look. You have been told over and over and over again that FDR expressed his personal opinion in a private letter. And FDR was not God. At least that is what all you right wingers have proclaimed for the last seventy years. He had a riht to his opinion and in this case he was incorrect. So what? The American he talked about has changed drastically. It is no longer the Thirties anymore.

My calendar on the wall says 2011. What does yours say Conservative? 1936?
The president in universe is Barack Omaba. Who is president in your world Conservative? FDR?

You seem to feel you really have some winning ace here to play and trump everyone else. Guess what? We don't care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAp-T8Gklw0&feature=related
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I anxiously await your explanation as to why Federal Public Union Employees have not been given the collective bargaining rights that the public union employees have in Wisconsin. Seems that FDR's beliefs have been supported by every President since including the current one, Barack Obama who had a partisan Democrat Congress for two years and never even brought the issue up.
 
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