Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

Councilman said:

Obama and all his Democrat minions believe all you have to do is tax the hell out of the people and keep spending like there is no tomorrow.

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"The Obama administration’s 2012 budget would save $1.1 trillion over the next 10 years by cutting programs to rein in a deficit that may reach a record $1.5 trillion this year, White House Budget Director Jacob Lew said."
Obama’s 2012 Budget Saves $1.1 Trillion, Cuts Deficit, Lew Says - Businessweek

Could you link me up to the GOP budget proposal during the last decade that cut spending by this much?

Thanks!

Walker is a Koch brothers puppet.

Many things that have been fought for and won are either under attack or will be soon according to rumblings from the TGOP including such things as child labor laws.

Break those unions. Think your hurting now? Wait till you have nothing to protect you from what is coming.
The one party rule machine is only in first gear. And it not made up of liberals and Muslims.

People bitched saying Obama tried ramming HCR down the throats of the American people in a short period of time not giving people time to come up with something better.
Walker presented this on Friday evening and wanted it done asap before anyone could get wind of what is in it.

If Wisconsin is in such dire CRISIS and it is the fault of the big bad unions then why exactly is only some unions affected by this bill? Could it be because the ones exempted were his supporters? or that he has family in the upper levels of one?
Naw! only liberals would do that.

If Wisconsin is in such dire CRISIS then ok fine don't raise taxes but should you give break's to those with the big money and then try to balance that out by taking from everyday workers?

What the hell sense does it make to take money out of the hands of consumers in a consumer driven economy then wonder why they are not consuming.

Unions don't have a problem paying more but the line gets drawn at collective bargaining.

But go ahead have you time and break the unions that are the only stopgap between workers and Citizens United. You may feel good for a while but when it comes back to bite you in the ass the Koch brothers will only kick you aside and laugh all the way to the bank.

I must say I am a tad bit surprised that it took them a week to get their TP to WI.

In the interest of full disclosure yes DH is in the Millwrights and Carpenters union. But even if he wasn't my opinion would be the same.

Shock Doctrine is alive and well.

zimmer said:

The sweet smell of sobriety.

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My view on this is that the people of WI voted for this Gov. They get what they voted for and should voice their objection in the next election. My question is, was this the ONLY choice.

This Democrat agrees with Governor Walker. I hope he crushes the public labor unions; they are a disgusting drain on public resources at a time when we can't afford it...and even during good times, the money could be put to better use. When the government provides the taxpayers with services, they should provide us with the best services possible at the lowest price possible; those programs exist for society's benefit, not to serve as a charity to government employees.

whysoserious said:

I think it is silly that you can remember why they were created and still find them to be erroneous. Unions were created because workers were being taken advantage of, and it is silly to think that without them they wouldn't be taken advantage of again.

Business has one goal: make money. If there is no force to control business, business will screw you. I have no issue with big business, but it does need controls.

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Dude...that was NINETY years ago. You dont think there has been just a WEE bit of change in society? The circumstances are different from the 20s. And unions are as well. Unions arent out to look out for the worker...unions are in bed with politics...they look out for unions...their union leaders. They dont do whats RIGHT for union workers. They protect and encourage incompetence in union members.

I freely admit that big business needs to adapt. So does labor. Without SERIOUS change, the two are Thelma and Louise holding hands and driving off a cliff.

TurtleDude said:

yeah that was an utter fail on his part

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Unions exist in the private sector as well... so I am not sure what your point is.

ender1 said:

My view on this is that the people of WI voted for this Gov. They get what they voted for and should voice their objection in the next election. My question is, was this the ONLY choice.

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Probably not, but the people have spoken. In 4 years, they get another chance to speak and we'll see how it goes.

Kandahar said:

This Democrat agrees with Governor Walker. I hope he crushes the public labor unions; they are a disgusting drain on public resources at a time when we can't afford it...and even during good times, the money could be put to better use. When the government provides the taxpayers with services, they should provide us with the best services possible at the lowest price possible; those programs exist for society's benefit, not to serve as a charity to government employees.

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Goddamn! You don't get it right very often, but when you're right, you're ****in'-a right.

VanceMack said:

Dude...that was NINETY years ago. You dont think there has been just a WEE bit of change in society? The circumstances are different from the 20s. And unions are as well. Unions arent out to look out for the worker...unions are in bed with politics...they look out for unions...their union leaders. They dont do whats RIGHT for union workers. They protect and encourage incompetence in union members.

I freely admit that big business needs to adapt. So does labor. Without SERIOUS change, the two are Thelma and Louise holding hands and driving off a cliff.

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Why do you think that these things don't exist anymore? Magic? It is the very liberal agenda you hate that caused it to stop and it is that exact agenda that keeps it from coming back. Unions are a big part of the reason that conditions have improved and with their removal you are only opening the door for them to come back.

Again, how much are teachers making vs how much do you think they should be making?

apdst said:

Try a hundred grand on for size.

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What world do you live in? Crazy town?

whysoserious said:

It is the very liberal agenda you hate that caused it to stop and it is that exact agenda that keeps it from coming back.

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LOL...whatever!!! That same Liberal agenda got greedy.

whysoserious said:

Superstars? How much are teachers being paid that you can compare them to superstars?

Side question: How much do you believe the people that teach our children should be paid?

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A superstar teacher in the private sector can make $100,000, but not the average. That is what I meant.

I think they should be paid what the free market decides. Get government out of the schools... they've turned them to rot. Let the teachers negotiate their contracts indiviudally. Let poor schools and teachers fail and find other management or jobs. If it's 100G... in the private sector... fine! But there aren't many worth that much.

We had a better education system before the DoE and unionized teachers. No wonder. If you couldn't cut it you found other work or got your act together. If a teacher of 15-years is mediocre, there is no way this individual should be paid the same as an exceptional educator of 5 or 6-years.

If I'm running a school, you can bet I'll know the performance of the teachers and act accordingly. The lower rung teachers I would be looking to replace with better talent, until I had a lineup I knew was giving the kids a solid grounding. If each school did that, watch the standards jump. You can be sure other schools would be seeking my talent too. But I'd be sure to have a environment where the teachers and students could excel. If another school bought one or more away, good for them.

We need that brought into the education system. Instead we have the dry rot and too high costs unionization brings.
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haymarket said:

You cannot have an intellectual discussion with people whose knowledge of unions and union members is a perverted distortion of a cartoon universe in which reality never intrudes or raises its head.

some here should read this

The Betrayal of Public Workers | The Nation

WARNING: It is not a cartoon caricature written in a drive-by cliche filled style designed to appeal to people who think unions and Tony Soprano are the same people.

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There are a lot of people in this thread that need to heed the following

Disgusted Allen West to Dems: Grow Up! - Rep. Allen West - Fox Nation

Walkers' on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace right now.

though this all smells like union busting, rather than effective budget control, im all for it.. if WI wants it differently, they'll have a chance to say so in a couple of years..

IMO teachers make puh-lenty..
do the math.. they showed a lady who claims to make 40K per year. 40,000 / 175(which includes a plethora of holidays) = 228 per day / 8 = 28.5 per hour . of this income less that 5% is for retirement and health insurance.
pretty darn good deal IMO..
in my own district, the super' retired a few years back with all his accrued vacation for 30yrs, which was manipulated so the rate he was to be paid was from his final year of "service" .
it amounted to a 100K per year retirement fund paid by the taxpayers.
the next super stepped right into a 100K per year job in a town of less than 3000 people..

i challenge anyone to find a way to tell me this is a 'just' cause/result .

i could give more examples of how the teachers union has destroyed america's schools, but ill leave room for others..

zimmer said:

A superstar teacher in the private sector can make $100,000, but not the average. That is what I meant.

I think they should be paid what the free market decides. Get government out of the schools... they've turned them to rot. Let the teachers negotiate their contracts indiviudally. Let poor schools and teachers fail and find other management or jobs. If it's 100G... in the private sector... fine! But there aren't many worth that much.

We had a better education system before the DoE and unionized teachers. No wonder. If you couldn't cut it you found other work or got your act together. If a teacher of 15-years is mediocre, there is no way this individual should be paid the same as an exceptional educator of 5 or 6-years.

If I'm running a school, you can bet I'll know the performance of the teachers and act accordingly. The lower rung teachers I would be looking to replace with better talent, until I had a lineup I knew was giving the kids a solid grounding. If each school did that, watch the standards jump. You can be sure other schools would be seeking my talent too. But I'd be sure to have a environment where the teachers and students could excel. If another school bought one or more away, good for them.

We need that brought into the education system. Instead we have the dry rot and too high costs unionization brings.
.

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Who is this free market monster? Why is the free market infallible? You know what the free market also produces?

-Bernie Madoff
-Enron
-Insider Trading
-Pollution
-Declining Insurance Payments
-Derivatives Trading
-Price Setting

To name just a few off the top of my head. So can we cut this "the free market is perfect" nonsense. The free market is a beast that if left untamed would destroy us.

washunut said:

You exactly subsidized me? It is not about punishing anyone or a race to the bottom. It is about paying someone what you feel is right. If Wisc. teachers think they can make more money elsewhere, go for it.

I also wonder if these teachers are committing fraud when they call in sick, get paid and then go protest.

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They are getting written excuses from real doctors at the protest. They are being good role models for the students they took to the protest aren't they?:roll:

VanceMack said:

I say its silly and not a little bit pathetic that you keep hearkening back to the 1920's as your justification for preserving unions. Should I point to the 70's and 80's and say that because of that era all unions are nothing more than fronts for organized crime activity?

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Some here seem to think that without the Unions the workers would just be out there at the hands of people who can treat them all ways imaginable. Walker brought up that Wisconsin has one of the strongest Civil Service Protection Laws in the Country. He also said that without paying Union dues (which will be voluntary if his bill passes)it would help offset what will be taken out for heathcare and pensions. He says Unions have become too powerful.
He said he doesn't want to lay-off a single person but they may have to lay off between 5-6 thousand if they can't get the budget in line.
He also said they received 19,000 emails (think in one day) and most were in support of what he is doing.
Anyway, here is a link to Wisconsin's Civil service protection laws. I think they'll be just fine even if the Unions are busted.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0230.pdf

These many different Wisconsin threads and their rabid anti-union vitriol reminds me of the great line of King Theoden in the film THE TWO TOWERS as his fortress of Helms Deep is besieged by an army of savage orcs who would destroy his civilization

"what can men do against such reckless hate?"

At least the working men and women of Wisconsin are standing tall and demonstrating what each of them can do.

WhyteRash said:

though this all smells like union busting, rather than effective budget control, im all for it.. if WI wants it differently, they'll have a chance to say so in a couple of years..

IMO teachers make puh-lenty..
do the math.. they showed a lady who claims to make 40K per year. 40,000 / 175(which includes a plethora of holidays) = 228 per day / 8 = 28.5 per hour . of this income less that 5% is for retirement and health insurance.
pretty darn good deal IMO..
in my own district, the super' retired a few years back with all his accrued vacation for 30yrs, which was manipulated so the rate he was to be paid was from his final year of "service" .
it amounted to a 100K per year retirement fund paid by the taxpayers.
the next super stepped right into a 100K per year job in a town of less than 3000 people..

i challenge anyone to find a way to tell me this is a 'just' cause/result .

i could give more examples of how the teachers union has destroyed america's schools, but ill leave room for others..

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do you work for this school district? are you a teacher?

zimmer said:

The sweet smell of sobriety.

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The assault on workers continues. Quote from the article:

Walker said Friday his proposals were necessary to help the state overcome the $137 million hole in the current budget, and eventually help the state make up the $3.6 billion shortfall projected for the next biennial budget.

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So you have to attack workers to make sure you get enough money? What about reforming the state's 7.9% flat tax on corporations?

Also what is this:

But the governor said he was prepared, should other state workers strike in protest. Walker has already talked with the National Guard about possibly filling in with the Department of Corrections if employees there attempt a work stoppage.

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about?

The threat of the NG is nothing but trying to use force to break the backs of the workers and make sure that they won't protest.

While unions will have to take some (economic) pain as well, there is absolutely no need to threaten the use of the National Guard.

haymarket said:

These many different Wisconsin threads and their rabid anti-union vitriol reminds me of the great line of King Theoden in the film THE TWO TOWERS as his fortress of Helms Deep is besieged by an army of savage orcs who would destroy his civilization

"what can men do against such reckless hate?"

At least the working men and women of Wisconsin are standing tall and demonstrating what each of them can do.

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You mean union thugs from all over the country and from Obama's Organizing for America are standing up in Wisconsin to protect unions.
Those protesters do not all live in Wisconsin and they didn't vote for or against Walker.

Mr. Invisible said:

The assault on workers continues. Quote from the article:



So you have to attack workers to make sure you get enough money? What about reforming the state's 7.9% flat tax on corporations?



Also what is this:

about?

The threat of the NG is nothing but trying to use force to break the backs of the workers and make sure that they won't protest.

While unions will have to take some (economic) pain as well, there is absolutely no need to threaten the use of the National Guard.

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Scabs have always been the weapon of choice by oppressive employers in a dispute of this type.

Barbbtx said:

Some here seem to think that without the Unions the workers would just be out there at the hands of people who can treat them all ways imaginable. Walker brought up that Wisconsin has one of the strongest Civil Service Protection Laws in the Country. He also said that without paying Union dues (which will be voluntary if his bill passes)it would help offset what will be taken out for heathcare and pensions. He says Unions have become too powerful.
He said he doesn't want to lay-off a single person but they may have to lay off between 5-6 thousand if they can't get the budget in line.
He also said they received 19,000 emails (think in one day) and most were in support of what he is doing.
Anyway, here is a link to Wisconsin's Civil service protection laws. I think they'll be just fine even if the Unions are busted.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0230.pdf

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Again, unions were the "free market" response to poor work conditions. So are you for government controlling business or the free market? I am confused. I thought you were conservative.

Mr. Invisible said:

The assault on workers continues. Quote from the article:



So you have to attack workers to make sure you get enough money? What about reforming the state's 7.9% flat tax on corporations?

Also what is this:

about?

The threat of the NG is nothing but trying to use force to break the backs of the workers and make sure that they won't protest.

While unions will have to take some (economic) pain as well, there is absolutely no need to threaten the use of the National Guard.

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The National Guard to replace those on strike makes sense to me. They would be qualified to do the jobs the Union workers abandoned.

whysoserious said:

Again, unions were the "free market" response to poor work conditions. So are you for government controlling business or the free market? I am confused. I thought you were conservative.

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And the free market response to union protests should be fine...you're fired...we'll replace you with someone that appreciates an aver salry of 55k with a compensation package of 50k. And it HAS to be noted...the unions threw all those portestors right under the bus for the sake of...what? More union members (which equals more dues).