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Walker takes broad swipe at public employee unions

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TurtleDude said:
I believe the owner of a business has the right to fire whomever he wants for any reason he wants
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A personal belief and the law are two very different things. This is part of a program to repeal most of the 20th century from right winger radicals.
 
TurtleDude said:
you went from saying overwhelmingly to "gave more "

you are making a fool of yourself
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No he is asking you something of which you are loathe to do ----- support your claims with independent, authoritative and verifiable evidence.
 
TurtleDude said:
another reason to get rid of public sectors unions
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as part of your program to repeal the 20th century political advances for the benefit and behalf of the people of America.
 
whysoserious said:
I do like FDR. He said and did a lot of great things. I think I have shown myself to be open to discussion and compromise. Often I ask questions so that I can get a feel for what the overall problem is. For instance, with the WI strikes, I understand why those are mad about the possibility of fake doctors notes and not going to work. What I don't understand is the hatred of the union. I don't understand what exactly these teachers are getting that is causing such an issue.

Also, this isn't just about the public sector. The same people on these boards who are calling these teachers "slobs" (direct quote) are the same ones who want to knock out all unions - not just those in the public sector. So while your FDR quote is intriguing and I appreciate you bringing up his viewpoint, it isn't entirely relevant.
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How about, a 40% higher salary than those who pay their salaries, the taxpayers, as the average income (salary and benefits) for the entire state of Wisconsin averages less than 60 thousand a year, while these teachers are making over 100 thousand a year in salary and benefits. Yet these teachers are being asked to do nothing but pay a small percentage into their own retirement fund, which is 100% funded by the tax payer right now, that contribution will be 5.8%...the average for private sector workers....is 8%, the teachers are being asked to have 12% copay on this health insurance, while the taxpayer who pays 100% of that benefit right now by average has to make a 20% copay on their insurance.

The is over a 3 Billion dollar deficit budget that will be realized in the firing of over 6000 Wisconsin public workers...its these two small changes are not made. The teachers are illegally striking right now, not because they will lose any of their base salary, which they by average only work 7 months out of a year to qualify...but they are striking because the new law will make the State of Wisconsin a right to work state instead of Closed Union Shop...pay for play State as it right now. What's really telling is the fact that this contract covers over 300 thousands employees, but there are less than 30 thousand striking, and many are them are being paid by the UNION to strike, many of which are not even teachers.

There is nothing wrong with collective bargaining in the PRIVATE sector where is the employer is not bound by a budget but can negotiate by the profit that is made. The State of Wisconsin does not run on a for profit basis...there is nothing to negotiate, in fact the State is already 3 Billion in the whole, and concessions must be made or there will be 6000 public workers fired. Its a most simple thing. These public servants should serve the STATE they have taken an oath to serve, as their bosses cannot negotiate with funds they do not possess. When the PEOPLE pass this law....no UNION BYLAW or CONSTITUTION can override that act of legislation. That is why no public servant has the constitutional right to collective bargaining, as explained by FDR.
 
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Barbbtx said:
Why is the left so obsessed with skin color?
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Being able to read a demographic analysis of electoral results is something that any serious student of political science must learn to do.
Being able to read census results, trends and projections is also a very useful skill that aids anyone in understand both election trends and just who American are.

This has little with actual skin color and everything to do with demographic trends.
 
Walter said:
How about, a 40% higher salary than those who pay their salaries, the taxpayers, as the average income (salary and benefits) for the entire state of Wisconsin averages less than 60 thousand a year, while these teachers are making over 100 thousand a year in salary and benefits. Yet these teachers are being asked to do nothing but pay a small percentage into their own retirement fund, which 100% funded by the tax payer right now, that contribution will be 5.8%...the average for private sector workers....is 8%, the teachers are being asked to have 12% copay on this health insurance, while the taxpayer who pays 100% of that benefit right now by average has to make a 20% copay on their insurance.

The is over a 3 Billion dollar deficit budget that will be realized in the firing of over 6000 Wisconsin public workers...its these two small changes are not made. The teachers are illegally striking right now, not because they will lose any of their base salary, which they by average only work 7 months out of a year to qualify...but they are striking because the new law will make the State of Wisconsin a right to work state instead of Closed Union Shop...pay for play State as it right now. What's really telling is the fact that this contract covers over 300 thousands employees, but there are less than 30 thousand striking, and many are them are being paid by the UNION to strike, many of which are not even teachers.
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Where are you getting those numbers? I have already shown that a 90% confidence interval of teachers in Wisconsin make between $32-70,000. That's 90%. The median is maxed at $60,000.

Keep in mind, these people all have at least four-year bachelor's degrees, so they should average at or just above the mean.
 
If the Democrat Party that I belonged to for almost 25 years continues to be hijacked, yep,
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Conservative - you sure that wasn't the DEMOCRATIC PARTY? Since you were in it for 25 long years I would have thought you would have at least learned the name.
 
whysoserious said:
Where are you getting those numbers? I have already shown that a 90% confidence interval of teachers in Wisconsin make between $32-70,000. That's 90%. The median is maxed at $60,000.

Keep in mind, these people all have at least four-year bachelor's degrees, so they should average at or just above the mean.
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But you are failing to add the BENEFITS their bosses, the TAXPAYER are paying at the rate of 100% with no co-payment. Which is the ONLY concession asked of these poor teachers, a contribution to their own retirements, and health care, just like all of America has to do. But, its really "moot", as the STATE BUDGET is controlled by acts of legislation....not UNION CONTRACTS. The point that FDR was making, and anyone with an once of intellectual honesty must concede.

Average MPS Teacher Compensation Tops $100k/year | MacIver Institute
 
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Walter said:
But you are failing to add the BENEFITS their bosses, the TAXPAYER are paying at the rate of 100% with no co-payment. Which is the ONLY concession asked of these poor teachers, a contribution to their own retirements, just like all of America has to do.

Average MPS Teacher Compensation Tops $100k/year | MacIver Institute
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Where are the details on the fringe benefits? Also, if you are adding in benefits to the teacher's salaries are you adding them into the average WI worker's salary? This all seems pretty weak so far. You just linked me to a site whose tag line is:

"The Free Market Voice For Wisconsin".

What are the odds that these guys might be a bit biased? :) I definitely need some numbers.
 
whysoserious said:
Where are the details on the fringe benefits? Also, if you are adding in benefits to the teacher's salaries are you adding them into the average WI worker's salary? This all seems pretty weak so far. You just linked me to a site whose tag line is:

"The Free Market Voice For Wisconsin".

What are the odds that these guys might be a bit biased? :) I definitely need some numbers.
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I am DOING NOTHING....I suggest you ask the source of the information, the MacIver Institute. Regardless, as apparently you have no intellectual honesty...the LAWMAKERS make law, when this legislation is passed, NO UNION CONTRACT OR BYLAW has the authority to override the PEOPLE, who pays the salaries. What part of BROKE do you not comprehend? 3 Billion dollar budget shortfall? The firing of over 6000 public employee if these concessions are not made?
 
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TurtleDude said:
you went from saying overwhelmingly to "gave more "

you are making a fool of yourself
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They mean the same thing counselor. And they both make my point.
 
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whysoserious said:
Who is this free market monster? Why is the free market infallible? You know what the free market also produces?

-Bernie Madoff
-Enron
-Insider Trading
-Pollution
-Declining Insurance Payments
-Derivatives Trading
-Price Setting

To name just a few off the top of my head. So can we cut this "the free market is perfect" nonsense. The free market is a beast that if left untamed would destroy us.
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Yes, there are failures in the free market too, but the difference is you do not have institutionalized failure, as we have when the government takes over. You will have pockets, and these pockets become known, avoided and corrected... 100-times faster than government can.

You do realize the United States government is responsible for the collapse of the US housing market and the related worldwide bank failures? OUR GOVERNMENT forced banks to make loans to people who could not afford to pay them back. There is video of Cuomo explaining it.

You do realize OUR GOVERNMENT has created Ponzi Schemes that make Democrat Madoff's disgusting rip-off's look like a pauper?

You do realize Enron failed and was allowed to fail? The free market picked up the pieces. Not so our government schemes. They get fed more and more taxpayer money instead of being phased out.

Pollution: You want to see egregious and wanton degrading of the environment? Go to countries that are government run. It's like our ghettos... it's someone else's property, so who the **** cares? IF we make an error, we can correct it. That's another beauty of the free market.

Insider trading: A fart in a hurricane. It will happen, and there is no guarantee these "tips" will pay off... but what is the alternative? The government controlling the show? It's miles more shady, ineffective and corrupt than the free market... just look at how ObamaKare was passed before our eyes. Slim Shady payoffs/buyoffs of votes with our cash to shove an unConstitutional "program" that we have consistently rejected (remember 1994) down our throats. And what do the busybodies do when we aren't looking? That's why limited government is best. It limits their power and control over us... the Slim Shady's like Obama and their intentions to "help" us. (Every time the government says they want to "help" us... insert screw instead.)

Insurance: Again, if a company is known to short its clients, it runs the risk of losing business. People are free to choose in a free market. And with hundreds of insurance companies, this gets sorted out quickly... ESPECIALLY WITH THE INTERNET. Now, what do you propose? Government? And when you get rejected by them... what's your recourse? You're screwed. There is none. And that is the problem with ObamaKare and all socialist healthcare schemes. Ask the Euros and Kanuckistani's who are waiting to see a Doctor. Not getting treatment, but initial visits, and then wait again for the needed care.

Do you realize the free market brings us:

Cell phones that can hook us up online with a hand-held mini computer?
The cost of the products and services have been drastically improved and prices drastically reduced so even kids have them? (I recall the old cell phone, with a battery you had to carry around like a briefcase and a cost of $10,000 for the phone only! That was only 25-years ago)

Computers have gotten faster and cheaper and would be so even if everything was manufactured in the USA?

You could apply this to almost anything. Sport equipment, automobiles... you name it. Now, if government was running the cell phone hardware industry, we'd still be carrying around batteries and the cost would be getting higher. Computers? You'd still be running a Commodore 64 with a tape deck on the side as they wouldn't have figured out or funded the transition to disks and then CD's. Today we're far beyond both; also 30-some years of rapid advancement.

The free market works fantastically. There will be failures, but the scope of them will be miniscule compared to the failures government has foisted upon our education system, and other parts of our existence.

Care to try and take on this "Free Market Monster" again? :)

.
 
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Walter said:
I am DOING NOTHING....I suggest you ask the source of the information, the MacIver Institute. Regardless, as apparently you have no intellectual honesty...the LAWMAKERS make law, when this legislation is passed, NO UNION CONTRACT OR BYLAW has the authority to override the PEOPLE, who pays the salaries. What part of BROKE do you not comprehend? 3 Billion dollar budget shortfall? The firing of over 6000 public employee if these concessions are not made?
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You're presenting it. If you can't defend it, then don't push it's ideas onto others. All I am asking is for you to defend the numbers. Can you prove that teachers there are receiving an average compensation of over $100k per year. I don't buy it. Though I would be happy if it were true.
 
haymarket said:
Zimmer

please read this

Wisconsin Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in WI: $46,390

the radical right wing "source" you used for the teacher salary garbage has been discredited soundly.

this is from OneWisconsinNow about the source for your 'information'



No wonder some folks hate unions when they base it on right wing false information fueled by radical ideology.
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Thats what we expect from a Soros funded liberal group

Soros directly financing Wisconsin liberal advocacy groups « Wisconsin Truth Project
 
zimmer said:
Care to try and take on this "Free Market Monster" again? :)

.
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Besides the fact that almost everything you said is completely unsubstantiated? Prove anything you just said. You realize that we are far behind many countries technologically speaking and regarding infrastructure. It would be hard to say that America is on the forefront of anything right now.

You said:
zimmer said:
You will have pockets, and these pockets become known, avoided and corrected... 100-times faster than government can.
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How? That sounds excellent, but it was just a bunch of words grouped together with no backing. Without government intervention like Sarbanes-Oxley, what would have been created in the private sector to avoid other Enron-like situations? A great example is the recent crash. There has been no regulation to fix derivatives trading. What has the free market done to guarantee us that our companies will not buy into falsley certified bad derivatives?

The free market has its positives. I don't know why you think you are educated me on that. I am not anti-free market. I am, however, a realist. The free market is not perfect and without regulations, the free market will run amok. This seems to be contrary to most conservative talking points that claim that leaving the free market alone is the solution to everything. It is my opinion that leaving the free market alone is ignorant and will only lead to relapses.

*Edit:

Also, nice straw man on the pollution argument. What country was I defending again? Oh wait, I wasn't. I was simply saying that without government restrictions, the free market would pollute as much as necessary to make a profit. Do you disagree?
 
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Catawba said:
"The Obama administration’s 2012 budget would save $1.1 trillion over the next 10 years by cutting programs to rein in a deficit that may reach a record $1.5 trillion this year, White House Budget Director Jacob Lew said."
Obama’s 2012 Budget Saves $1.1 Trillion, Cuts Deficit, Lew Says - Businessweek

Could you link me up to the GOP budget proposal during the last decade that cut spending by this much?

Thanks!
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Problem is like most things Obama say this is a lie

Obama
 
whysoserious said:
Why do you think that these things don't exist anymore? Magic? It is the very liberal agenda you hate that caused it to stop and it is that exact agenda that keeps it from coming back. Unions are a big part of the reason that conditions have improved and with their removal you are only opening the door for them to come back.

Again, how much are teachers making vs how much do you think they should be making?



What world do you live in? Crazy town?
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Their usefulness died with Hoffa
 
whysoserious said:
Thanks for a link to the "Conservative News Service". Honestly, they probably are more reliable than Fox News but I'll pass.
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It shows Soros is up to his usual BS and the libs are falling for it
 
LookingGlass said:
Really? This is so easy to substantiate.

As Power Shifts, So Do The Dollars

Democratic Party Contributors - Business in Politics | Business Politics

The 10 Biggest Corporate Campaign Contributors in U.S. Politics - DailyFinance
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You are correct. I incorrectly stated the news I'd heard previously. My apologies. The news item was about the 2010 election, and how out of the top ten groups making campaign donations, 7 out of the 10 were conservative organizations and the remaining 3 were unions.

I just verified that for myself here: Outside Spending | OpenSecrets
 
whysoserious said:
If that's what they taxpayers want, then they should receive it. I am only saying, poking fun at the very institutions that made America great and allowed our workers to be some of the happiest in the world is not a proper way.



That statement makes no sense.



Yeah, there are always a few idiots in every crowd. At the Rally To Restore Sanity, some people missed the memo and brought serious signs. It was quite unfortunate, but it just goes to show that idiots ruin all the fun.
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Unions never made America great. Do you work for a union, or are you a member of a union? I want to know whom I'm debating.
 
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