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Jared Loughner, Alleged Shooter in Gabrielle Giffords Attack, Described by Classmate

Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

As of this terrorist.. he is more right wing than left.

His hatred of government makes him right wing.. cant get around of that fact, since the left as the right constantly reminds us of, want more government.

Yeah, guess I misunderstood all the wacko protesters at IMF meetings. I didn't realize they wanted "more" government.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

People shouldn't assume that just because he was reading the communist manifesto and mein kampf or however you spell it, that he was a lefty. Plenty of liberals have read O'reilly's and Hannity books and plenty of conservatives had read the Audacity of Hope. People often read the literature of their political adversaries. Regardless, the guy was simply a wacko, and had no real political views. He's a conspiracy theorist gone bade and modern conspiracy has elements of both left and right ideologies.

As for those who say Hitler was a leftist, lol. There was nothing socialist about the National Socialist Party except for its name. The Nazis had no clear economic policy. Hitler was extremely socially conservative, pro-military, and anti-immigration. Almost none of Hitler's political ideologies fit in the leftist worldview. Modern day neo-nazis consider themselves right wing groups. When I see those posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache I laugh and think "Someone needs to take a European History course".
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Hitler and Nazism is very much right wing.



It's neither right nor left. Why this idiotic conversation comes up about once a year is beyond me. :roll:
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

It's neither right nor left. Why this idiotic conversation comes up about once a year is beyond me. :roll:

Because it's important for progressives to tag the worst example of humanity, namely HITLER, in the same circle as conservatives/Republicans/the RIGHT of the political spectrum.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

It's neither right nor left. Why this idiotic conversation comes up about once a year is beyond me. :roll:

There is nothing idiotic about the conversation. It does create a problem of identifying right and left, but as socialist ideologies are always regarded as being on the left there is no controversy in saying an ideology that emerged from such ideologies and still leaned towards such ideologies is from the left. Problem is some people are not adequately educated about Nazism/Fascism and so they have the mistaken impression that it rests mainly on the right.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

There is nothing idiotic about the conversation. It does create a problem of identifying right and left, but as socialist ideologies are always regarded as being on the left there is no controversy in saying an ideology that emerged from such ideologies and still leaned towards such ideologies is from the left. Problem is some people are not adequately educated about Nazism/Fascism and so they have the mistaken impression that it rests mainly on the right.

No, it is a stupid conversation. Facism isn't really comparable anywhere to modern American politics.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Because it's important for progressives to tag the worst example of humanity, namely HITLER, in the same circle as conservatives/Republicans/the RIGHT of the political spectrum.

I guess you've never been to a Tea Party rally and seen the Obama posters with a Hitler mustache. Or I guess you never saw that conservative billboard that compared Obama to Hitler.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Facism - single party or dictatorship rule over both the government and the economy. Denounces individual power in favor of the national collective.
Communism - single party or dictatorship rule over both the government and the economy. Denounces individual power in favor of the national collective.

They are identical, except one claims it's for the nation, the other claims it's for the people.

Trying to use such ambiguous terms as left, right, etc., doesn't help.

The shooter doesn't appear to be mentally sane, read his stuff, it's gibberish. The political rhetoric has nothing to do with it.
 
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Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Communism and fascim are opposing ideologies His Ayn Rand readings put him on the rightmost end of the spectrum.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Have you read Loughner's political ramblings? He doesn't really have ANY coherent political ideology, he's just crazy.

Maybe he's just misunderstood.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Facism - single party or dictatorship rule over both the government and the economy. Denounces individual power in favor of the national collective.
Communism - single party or dictatorship rule over both the government and the economy. Denounces individual power in favor of the national collective.

They are identical, except one claims it's for the nation, the other claims it's for the people.

Trying to use such ambiguous terms as left, right, etc., doesn't help.

Except that is not what communism is in reality. Rather it is the impression people have gotten about it from the fact certain governments have carried out their actions in the name of communism. Marx envisioned a situation where the workers, the overwhelming majority of people, would govern over affairs democratically. Lenin introduced the vanguard party that replaced the idea of the proletariat dictatorship, referring to the shift in power to the working-class and not a dictatorship in the sense you mean. Had Lenin's ideas been the mainstay of the USSR it is quite possible that, while communism would not be regarded positively by the elites and those who follow them, it would have more mass appeal. However, Stalin went one giant step further in distorting the ideology.

The shooter doesn't appear to be mentally sane, read his stuff, it's gibberish. The political rhetoric has nothing to do with it.

Just because he might be insane, having unusual or improper writing or speaking style is not the same as being insane, does not mean he is apolitical. Politics undoubtedly informed his actions on some level.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

There is nothing idiotic about the conversation. It does create a problem of identifying right and left, but as socialist ideologies are always regarded as being on the left there is no controversy in saying an ideology that emerged from such ideologies and still leaned towards such ideologies is from the left. Problem is some people are not adequately educated about Nazism/Fascism and so they have the mistaken impression that it rests mainly on the right.

Please feel free to enlighten us with some facts as you set forth nothing but personal opinion. Your assertion is contrary to generally accepted political science. Though I would agree their are many that simply suggest that nazism was a incoherent political philosophy that does not fit into a left/right paradigm. I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but a cross reference would be helpful.
 
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Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Demon of Light said:
Lenin introduced the vanguard party that replaced the idea of the proletariat dictatorship

Fun Fact: This is completely false.

"The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement." - Marx, Manifesto, Proletarians and Communists
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Fact is, a true communist party has never really come to fruition.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

WTF does that even mean

I think he means that it might work on paper but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

When you put imperfect people in charge of a perfect system, everything changes and the system is no longer perfect.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

No, it is a stupid conversation. Facism isn't really comparable anywhere to modern American politics.

quite an ironic statement from someone with hunter s thompson in his signature. i'm guessing you don't actually read any of thompson's work, you just found the quote with a google search.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

quite an ironic statement from someone with hunter s thompson in his signature. i'm guessing you don't actually read any of thompson's work, you just found the quote with a google search.

What I was saying is it's lazy to compare everyone to Nazis. Could have been worded better, none of the parties platforms line up is what I'm getting at. That's really my fault for using facism interchangeably.
 
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Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

I think he means that it might work on paper but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

When you put imperfect people in charge of a perfect system, everything changes and the system is no longer perfect.

The problem is the same with any pure system. Pure laissez faire capitalism doesn't happen for the same reasons.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Please feel free to enlighten us with some facts as you set forth nothing but personal opinion. Your assertion is contrary to generally accepted political science. Though I would agree their are many that simply suggest that nazism was a incoherent political philosophy that does not fit into a left/right paradigm. I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but a cross reference would be helpful.

Socialism and its variants like Syndicalism are identified as being left-wing ideologies. Nazism arose from socialism and syndicalism and retained many of those ideals. People who identify Nazism as being a Far Right ideology are making the error of emphasizing the nationalist and racialist aspects of the philosophy.

Fun Fact: This is completely false.

"The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement." - Marx, Manifesto, Proletarians and Communists

Where did he say "vanguard party" in there? The idea of the vanguard party espoused by Lenin is completely different from what is being expressed here. Lenin envisioned the vanguard party as taking control of the state on behalf of the proletariat as the dictatorship of the proletariat. Marx definitely did not espouse such an idea.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Except that is not what communism is in reality. Rather it is the impression people have gotten about it from the fact certain governments have carried out their actions in the name of communism.

You're confusing theory with reality. In reality, they are as I wrote, and they are specifically (and more that failed)

People's Republic of China
Republic of Cuba
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Lao People's Democratic Republic
Socialist Republic of Vietnam

In fantasy-land, they are something else entirely, maybe. But I'm not interested in fantasy land at the moment. And if I am, it better include hot chics and sniper rifles, maybe combined :)

You're also glossing over the fact that when some ideas are implemented in reality, they end up not producing what they hypothetically were supposed to. Reality has that effect on ideas. In the great global hypothesis of communism, anyone can see what the results of the experiment were, and that the hypothesis was bunk.

Such was, and still apparently is, the danger of socialism and communism rhetoric. Now, if I were a potential dictator with a power base, seeking to control an entire state, would I consider using a tool that "appears" to give power to the majority, but actually gives it all to me? I have a cunning plan.

That;s really the depressing and ironic tragedy of communism/socialism isn't it? You have these people that are championing it in the name of individual power and the worker, etc., and you know the rhetoric is designed to appeal to that, but you also know that in reality, it will mean some of the worst political and economic conditions of the last century, if implemented. It's like seeing someone lapping up poison that tastes like cotton candy, it's just awful.
 
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Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

I guess you've never been to a Tea Party rally and seen the Obama posters with a Hitler mustache. Or I guess you never saw that conservative billboard that compared Obama to Hitler.




yeah I know...


bush-as-hitler.jpg



images



Such horror. poor poor obama :roll:
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

You're confusing theory with reality. In reality, they are as I wrote, and they are specifically (and more that failed)

People's Republic of China
Republic of Cuba
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Lao People's Democratic Republic
Socialist Republic of Vietnam

In fantasy-land, they are something else entirely, maybe. But I'm not interested in fantasy land at the moment. And if I am, it better include hot chics and sniper rifles, maybe combined :)

You're also glossing over the fact that when some ideas are implemented in reality, they end up not producing what they hypothetically were supposed to. Reality has that effect on ideas. In the great global hypothesis of communism, anyone can see what the results of the experiment were, and that the hypothesis was bunk.

Such was, and still apparently is, the danger of socialism and communism rhetoric. Now, if I were a potential dictator with a power base, seeking to control an entire state, would I consider using a tool that "appears" to give power to the majority, but actually gives it all to me? I have a cunning plan.

That;s really the depressing and ironic tragedy of communism/socialism isn't it? You have these people that are championing it in the name of individual power and the worker, etc., and you know the rhetoric is designed to appeal to that, but you also know that in reality, it will mean some of the worst political and economic conditions of the last century, if implemented. It's like seeing someone lapping up poison that tastes like cotton candy, it's just awful.

Sorry, but your notion that reality impugnes the theory is quite absurd. If people applied that sort of thinking to every political theory we would condemn the very idea of democracy given the less-than-respectable actions of its earlier proponents.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Where did he say "vanguard party" in there? The idea of the vanguard party espoused by Lenin is completely different from what is being expressed here. Lenin envisioned the vanguard party as taking control of the state on behalf of the proletariat as the dictatorship of the proletariat. Marx definitely did not espouse such an idea.

Lol so because he didn't say the exact words or coin a phrase that means that Lenin was the originator. And no, Lenin did not envision that. You are again wrong.
 
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