In New York City, 41% of pregnancies aborted

Gray_Fox_86 said:

What if they are 24 and still living in the house?

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Why would a 24 year old be living at home?
Legally - they can live on their own by the age of 18. . . sooner if they are capable and have my consent or emancipate their selves.

My purpose as a parent is to ready them for their own future - and in order to do that efficiently I must parent well, ensure an adequate education - and an essential step in this is getting the little fledglings to leave the nest.

I fail to see how that relates to the subject in question, though. :shrug:

But what is slightly related is the legally-upheld theory that while they ARE underage and living at home, on my health insurance and so on - 100% my charge - that they have the right to conceive, pursue abortion, and keep it from me. . . which I disagree with. But we've debated that elsewhere.

Aunt Spiker said:

So 200 years ago people were more responsible and less callous?

Haha! If you know anything about history you'd know that's a steaming pile.

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I don't know when we have killed in excess of a million innocent people a year over a forty year period for convenience. Of course it isn't callous if you don't find killing offensive. Which bring me back to my point; it's callous and irresponsible. People slough it off with crap like coy remarks about 200-years ago and nothing more to support their case.

If you can find me a time when we killed more than a million a year for convenience, then you might have a point. But you cannot.

And of course, people rarely get fed information by the journOlists against snuffing more than a million a year. Too bad we don't get an abortion count like we got the Iraq War Deaths Count every damn night it seemed. Something like:


Not callous?

Using a subset of the same data, STAKES researchers had previously reported that the risk of death from suicide within the year of an abortion was more than seven times higher than the risk of suicide within a year of childbirth.

Abortion Four Times Deadlier Than Childbirth

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.

X Factor said:

Please, you know Planned Parenthood is pleased. Abortions are a cash cow for them.

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The moral high ground is just for you.

I'd be interested to see at what point during pregnancy these abortions took place. I do think it's wrong to force a woman to carry a child that isn't even viable yet. Not choosing to carry a small group of cells isn't exactly the same thing as murder.

Sean_H said:

I'd be interested to see at what point during pregnancy these abortions took place. I do think it's wrong to force a woman to carry a child that isn't even viable yet. Not choosing to carry a small group of cells isn't exactly the same thing as murder.

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It is the same to most anti-abortionists. Trust me, you'll never convince them otherwise.

zimmer said:

I don't know when we have killed in excess of a million innocent people a year over a forty year period for convenience. Of course it isn't callous if you don't find killing offensive. Which bring me back to my point; it's callous and irresponsible. People slough it off with crap like coy remarks about 200-years ago and nothing more to support their case.

If you can find me a time when we killed more than a million a year for convenience, then you might have a point. But you cannot.

And of course, people rarely get fed information by the journOlists against snuffing more than a million a year. Too bad we don't get an abortion count like we got the Iraq War Deaths Count every damn night it seemed. Something like:

In the first 10-days of 2011,
we have had in excess of 30,000 abortions already.​

Not callous?



.

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Your data doesn't clarify a lot of things, but correlation doesn't equal causation, maybe people who have unplanned pregnancies (a likely candidate for abortion) are more likely to commit suicide. Point is having an abortion doesn't make you kill yourself. Even if the risks work the way you say, I can name a number of legal things in this country that greatly increase the risk of suicide that are entirely legal. Alcoholics are substantially more likely to commit suicide than non-alcoholics, in fact about a third of people who commit suicide are alcoholics Alcoholic Suicide - Suicide Risk Among Alcoholics Increases With Age. Gamblers, smokers, and people who were recently fired are also at greater risk.

Aunt Spiker said:

Cost wise is specifically what he was referring to - and yes.
An abortion is a short, outpatient procedure.
A delivery is not.

logically - you simply cannot unmake that fact. It is true regardless of emotional reaction.

It also costs more to raise a child than it costs to not raise a child - gee, imagine that.

Like it or not - life costs money. It in fact costs a lot of money. when you don't have a lot of money you're just living next to homeless.

I feel bad for people who go through this entire situation in their personal lives. On one hand they have the pro-life crowd pressuring them to have another child. Then they have the pro-choice supporting, maybe. Then they have those who don't want them dependent on the government for support - and who negatively chide them for having more children . . . and then family - maybe their family doesn't want them to have the child. Maybe their partner promised to be there and then bailed (it's happened to me - happens to a lot).

What a ****ty situation to be in - where people will hold it against you and loath you no matter what you do.

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The fact that he tried to even make the argument that way, was my contention.

zimmer said:

I don't know when we have killed in excess of a million innocent people a year over a forty year period for convenience. Of course it isn't callous if you don't find killing offensive. Which bring me back to my point; it's callous and irresponsible. People slough it off with crap like coy remarks about 200-years ago and nothing more to support their case.

If you can find me a time when we killed more than a million a year for convenience, then you might have a point. But you cannot.

And of course, people rarely get fed information by the journOlists against snuffing more than a million a year. Too bad we don't get an abortion count like we got the Iraq War Deaths Count every damn night it seemed. Something like:

In the first 10-days of 2011,
we have had in excess of 30,000 abortions already.​

Not callous?

.

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I support my view quite sufficiently - mine hinges heavily one the inescapable financial, emotional, and practicle aspects of parents and family-rearing.
Though I oppose abortion-for-convenience - a large % of abortions are for legitimate and very understandable reasons.

You see the problem: 49million + fetuses have been aborted. . . and you want THAT fixed.

I see the problem: 49million + mothers were living in less-than-ideal situations to have a child or add to their already existing family. (Nevermind the fathers - a large percentage aren't married and are too young and immature to properly raise a child). . . and I want THAT fixed.

I was 17 when I had my oldest - I'm now 30 and in college. Lucky for me I met someone who was fine with me being a stay at home mom for our children and who was fine with me slowly coming around to BEING a mother. Him being in my life has been essential - a key component in me actually growing up and becoming a responsible adult.

If I didn't have my husband I'd be another statistically ****ty mom living in the ghetto.

Ergo - I know that countless others DON'T have a single iota of sense in their heads to actually make sound parenting decisions. whether you want to believe it or not - THAT is essential. There are NOT 49+million single, wealthy couples willing to adopt all those children.

And to think that if we banned abortion they'd all grow out of the thought processes that lead to their situations is overlooking all the many facts of human nature and history.

But if you want to call this mom of 4 callous because I know how hard and next to impossible it is to have children - suit yourself. I don't hold my view to PLEASE YOU and make you feel good.

Aunt Spiker said:

No, it doesn't include their choice. Why should it?
They aren't on their own and making their own choices until much later in life - up until then they're the charge of someone else.

Until my kids grow up and move out - their lives are 100% my decision.

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So you can whack your 5-year-old, too?

There is no sane argument for abortion. Zero, zilch, nada. You have to really twist your mind to come to terms with it. It's chilling, frankly.

The same people who oppose killing a serial murderer are perfectly fine with killing a baby. The greatest political contradiction of all time.

Aunt Spiker said:

Why would a 24 year old be living at home?
Legally - they can live on their own by the age of 18. . . sooner if they are capable and have my consent or emancipate their selves.

My purpose as a parent is to ready them for their own future - and in order to do that efficiently I must parent well, ensure an adequate education - and an essential step in this is getting the little fledglings to leave the nest.

I fail to see how that relates to the subject in question, though. :shrug:

But what is slightly related is the legally-upheld theory that while they ARE underage and living at home, on my health insurance and so on - 100% my charge - that they have the right to conceive, pursue abortion, and keep it from me. . . which I disagree with. But we've debated that elsewhere.

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puh...puh.....pa...please. We are a nation that prides itself on "family" morals. But yet too many American's share your believe. Or if they don't want to kick their children out, their children leave anyway and the parents are stuck waiting and hoping for their kids to return, if they ever will.

Its why I am glad you believe in abortion. Have you aborted your children yet? I believe we have one too many callous people in this nation. And you are part of the blame.

*snip - double post*

Erod said:

So you can whack your 5-year-old, too?

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Do you think I actually value and equate a matured fetus, born infant, toddler, or young child to an undeveloped collection of cells?
Obviously I don't - but yet you're attempting that approach anyway - does it work for you with other people?

I don't even support 'whacking' a 6 month fetus - or even a 3 month fetus. I only supported abortion in the first 2 months - not even the full first trimester. . .and most others do, as well- that's when the majority of abortions are performed.

There is no sane argument for abortion. Zero, zilch, nada. You have to really twist your mind to come to terms with it. It's chilling, frankly.

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I simply live in a realistic world and I accept life as it is - I don't try to warp human nature and reality into something it's not. I prefer women don't abort - I prefer that everyone be a loving, caring, capable parent - but everyone is not. I believe that raising a child should be done if you are financially sound OR if you can adequately deal with *not* being financially sound. I also believe parents should be able to actually PARENT their children, raise them well, and progress forward mentally and emotionally - not digress - due to having children.

I most certainly don't expect, require or demand that people raise a child alone or in less than desirable circumstances - if their partner was there for the conception then the problem is between two people - not everyone else.

I think pro-life people who have no flex or understanding on the entire subject live in a false reality, completely disconnected from the hardcore and inescapable facts of humanity and the challenges of parenting.

The same people who oppose killing a serial murderer are perfectly fine with killing a baby. The greatest political contradiction of all time.

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Well I'm not one of those - like with abortion - ending a life has to be for adequate and legitimate reasons. . . but I don't expect you to remember every thread we've been in that hashed this out.

You know what doesn't make sense to me? Why conservative generally are anti-abortion - while not all - but quite a few are opposed to welfare.

What is to be drawn from that? That people are willing to force those into the very status of life that is loathed?

Aunt Spiker said:

Do you think I actually value and equate a matured fetus, born infant, toddler, or young child to an undeveloped collection of cells?
Obviously I don't - but yet you're attempting that approach anyway - does it work for you with other people?

I don't even support 'whacking' a 6 month fetus - or even a 3 month fetus. I only supported abortion in the first 2 months - not even the full first trimester. . .and most others do, as well- that's when the majority of abortions are performed.



I simply live in a realistic world and I accept life as it is - I don't try to warp human nature and reality into something it's not. I prefer women don't abort - I prefer that everyone be a loving, caring, capable parent - but everyone is not. I believe that raising a child should be done if you are financially sound OR if you can adequately deal with *not* being financially sound. I also believe parents should be able to actually PARENT their children, raise them well, and progress forward mentally and emotionally - not digress - due to having children.

I most certainly don't expect, require or demand that people raise a child alone or in less than desirable circumstances - if their partner was there for the conception then the problem is between two people - not everyone else.

I think pro-life people who have no flex or understanding on the entire subject live in a false reality, completely disconnected from the hardcore and inescapable facts of humanity and the challenges of parenting.



Well I'm not one of those - like with abortion - ending a life has to be for adequate and legitimate reasons. . . but I don't expect you to remember every thread we've been in that hashed this out.
You know what doesn't make sense to me? Why conservative generally are anti-abortion - while not all - but quite a few are opposed to welfare.

What is to be drawn from that? That people are willing to force those into the very status of life that is loathed?

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Well, first, I apologize for categorizing your stance on the death penalty without asking. Out of line on my part.

Conservatives - at least the real ones - promote personal accountabililty. When you have kids, you give up your life in many respects, and rightly so. That's not a bad thing; in fact, it's a wonderful thing if you let it be. But once that "collection of cells" is there, YOUR life is not your own anymore, not for you or daddy. That's just what good people do.

In most cases, welfare flies in the face of accountability, although there are ABSOLUTELY situations that justify it. Conservatives aren't against welfare in principle, but it is applied in such a ridiculous and unwarranted fashion. Unfortunately, there's an infintesimally small percentage of welfare recipients who are actually trying hard to get off it. Most consider it "owed" to them, which is why conservatives despise it so. It's become an institutional teet for Democratic votes. (I once qualified for it, I'm sure, but the thought of applying for it instead of working my way out of it didn't occur to me.)

I think every "collection of cells" deserves a chance. Aren't we all just a "collection of cells" in the end?

Gray_Fox_86 said:

puh...puh.....pa...please. We are a nation that prides itself on "family" morals.

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HAH! Bull****. We're a nation built on the subjucation, oppression and enslavement of people - first the African Americans and now whatever illegal alien wishes to cross our borders and work the fields for crap wages.

You might with to think it is *so* - but that does not make it *so*

But yet too many American's share your believe.

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And yet many American's share your belief, as well.

Good - everyone's an individual and looking out for their own values. Unfortunately - your group of people want to push your views on my group of people. Oddly - if the pro-choice group was to actually do that we'd be no better than China.

Or if they don't want to kick their children out, their children leave anyway and the parents are stuck waiting and hoping for their kids to return, if they ever will.

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What does this have to do with the subject at hand?

Its why I am glad you believe in abortion. Have you aborted your children yet?

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I HAVE 4 children so that means, no, I did not abort them.
I also don't EXPECT or DEMAND that anyone else do what they don't want to do - if someone doesn't want to abort then I'm all for that and support their desire and effort to be a parent.

In fact - I didn't support abortion AT ALL until after I had all of my children. My initial change came from the many health and other problems I suffered through while pregnant - during my last pregnancy my body completely fell apart in more ways than one. If you care to learn more you can, by all means, read all my other posts about abortion and my illnesses that I suffered through because of pregnancy, etc etc etc.

But I know that by bringing up my children you're trying to incite me to anger or other emotion - which doesn't work with me. (See - I'm so callous I don't feel anything anymore! Hit me with your best shot - fire away . . . and for that I get horrible person reps for tossing into a depressing subject a peppy pop tune line without shame.)

Edit to blend two different posts together:

Erod said:

Well, first, I apologize for categorizing your stance on the death penalty without asking. Out of line on my part.

It's fine, no big deal - it might not be true for me but, yes, it's true for quite a few.

Conservatives - at least the real ones - promote personal accountabililty. When you have kids, you give up your life in many respects, and rightly so. That's not a bad thing; in fact, it's a wonderful thing if you let it be. But once that "collection of cells" is there, YOUR life is not your own anymore, not for you or daddy. That's just what good people do.

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Indeed - true - it is not your life anymore.
But that doesn't change the fact that many cannot change their life for the sake of a pregnancy. Often that very blessing can turn into a curse - it's just human nature.

In most cases, welfare flies in the face of accountability, although there are ABSOLUTELY situations that justify it. Conservatives aren't against welfare in principle, but it is applied in such a ridiculous and unwarranted fashion. Unfortunately, there's an infintesimally small percentage of welfare recipients who are actually trying hard to get off it. Most consider it "owed" to them, which is why conservatives despise it so. It's become an institutional teet for Democratic votes. (I once qualified for it, I'm sure, but the thought of applying for it instead of working my way out of it didn't occur to me.)

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I'm fiscally Conservative - we both seem to have that in common and we both prefer everyone be sound, reasonable and capable people
And I'm sure you realize that it's just not that way - we just have different views as to how that applies to the abortion subject.

BE careful when drawing political lines, though. Many many Liberals OPPOSE it - and many many Conservatives SUPPORT it.

This is part of the reason why I don't label my views - it leads people to draw conclusions (that are often wrong) about where you stand on many issues and you get swept into the fray - guilty by association - which is something I loath.

I think every "collection of cells" deserves a chance. Aren't we all just a "collection of cells" in the end?

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It's such a heavy, demanding and life-long commitment that I think 'giving it a chance' (the phrase and idea) is to cookie-cutter.

As I often say: *I would hold a more pro-life view if we could improve our entire world and overall society* - until that happens I will stay as I am.

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Aunt Spiker said:

I support my view quite sufficiently - mine hinges heavily one the inescapable financial, emotional, and practicle aspects of parents and family-rearing.
Though I oppose abortion-for-convenience - a large % of abortions are for legitimate and very understandable reasons.

You see the problem: 49million + fetuses have been aborted. . . and you want THAT fixed.

I see the problem: 49million + mothers were living in less-than-ideal situations to have a child or add to their already existing family. (Nevermind the fathers - a large percentage aren't married and are too young and immature to properly raise a child). . . and I want THAT fixed.

I was 17 when I had my oldest - I'm now 30 and in college. Lucky for me I met someone who was fine with me being a stay at home mom for our children and who was fine with me slowly coming around to BEING a mother. Him being in my life has been essential - a key component in me actually growing up and becoming a responsible adult.

If I didn't have my husband I'd be another statistically ****ty mom living in the ghetto.

Ergo - I know that countless others DON'T have a single iota of sense in their heads to actually make sound parenting decisions. whether you want to believe it or not - THAT is essential. There are NOT 49+million single, wealthy couples willing to adopt all those children.

And to think that if we banned abortion they'd all grow out of the thought processes that lead to their situations is overlooking all the many facts of human nature and history.

But if you want to call this mom of 4 callous because I know how hard and next to impossible it is to have children - suit yourself. I don't hold my view to PLEASE YOU and make you feel good.

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I would have less problem with abortion if the laws concerning abortion were created where they should be. With the legislative bodies, not by judicial fiat. Roe v. Wade was a huge judicial overreach.

49 million abortions, and most for convenience sake, let's not kid ourselves here. The abortion clinic is like a garbage dump. People that believe the most innocent and voiceless human life gets dumped there... out of convenience. If they valued life, they wouldn't end up there. 49 million times... a million a year. It's simply staggering.


"If they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."
Callous and careless.

The whole pro life vs pro choice debate brings up a lot of questions, some without answers.

For one thing, does an aborted fetus represent an intelligence that never will get a chance to exist at all?

Or is the spirit that would have inhabited the new body simply born to someone else?

Try finding a definitive answer to that one. The interesting thing is that the pro life voices tend to be the same ones who believe that a human being has a spirit as well as a body.

Another question is this: Is being pro choice the same as pro abortion?
Or does it mean that the pro choice person is really in favor of allowing others to make a choice that he himself finds reprehensible?

In other words, if abortion is outlawed, will that stop it? Will it slow it down, even? Are there better ways of encouraging people to make the right choice, while allowing the choice to be made?

Chew on that one for a while.

Dittohead not! said:

The whole pro life vs pro choice debate brings up a lot of questions, some without answers.

For one thing, does an aborted fetus represent an intelligence that never will get a chance to exist at all?

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Possible. But it is also possible that it won't have an intelligence beyond that of drooling. It's also possible that instead of being a force for good it could be a force for evil. Anything is possible. Future telling is not my forte' though. So generally don't address these type of questions.

Dittohead not! said:

Or is the spirit that would have inhabited the new body simply born to someone else?

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Again, possible. No one really knows. Some might think that they know..but thinking and knowing are two different things.

Dittohead not! said:

Another question is this: Is being pro choice the same as pro abortion?
Or does it mean that the pro choice person is really in favor of allowing others to make a choice that he himself finds reprehensible?

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The bolded part is where I fall. I do not like abortion and I do think that it is reprehensible. But I also realize that that is just my belief. My beliefs should not be forced on others with other differing beliefs.

Dittohead not! said:

In other words, if abortion is outlawed, will that stop it? Will it slow it down, even? Are there better ways of encouraging people to make the right choice, while allowing the choice to be made?

Chew on that one for a while.

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No it will not stop it. History has proven that one already. Will it slow it down? Don't know. Are there better ways of encouraging people to make the right choice? In order to answer that you would have to get everyone to agree on what the right choice is first.

zimmer said:

"If they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."

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Perhaps the worst thing ever said in public by a sitting president.

Kal'Stang said:

The bolded part is where I fall. I do not like abortion and I do think that it is reprehensible. But I also realize that that is just my belief. My beliefs should not be forced on others with other differing beliefs.

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Do you consider a fetus a human? If so, abortion is the taking of a life, and surely you do not support that.

Kal'Stang said:

Possible. But it is also possible that it won't have an intelligence beyond that of drooling. It's also possible that instead of being a force for good it could be a force for evil. Anything is possible. Future telling is not my forte' though. So generally don't address these type of questions.



Again, possible. No one really knows. Some might think that they know..but thinking and knowing are two different things.

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No, no one really knows. It's one of those questions with no answer. The interesting thing is that the same people who believe in a human soul tend to be the ones most adamantly opposed to abortion, and most likely to want to impose their value on the rest of us. It's kind of a curious irony.

Kal'Stang said:

The bolded part is where I fall. I do not like abortion and I do think that it is reprehensible. But I also realize that that is just my belief. My beliefs should not be forced on others with other differing beliefs.

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That's where I fall as well. Abortion is reprehensible, and in almost every case immoral. So is adultery and a whole lot of other choices people make. That doesn't mean I should impose my values on the rest of society.

Kal'Stang said:

No it will not stop it. History has proven that one already. Will it slow it down? Don't know. Are there better ways of encouraging people to make the right choice? In order to answer that you would have to get everyone to agree on what the right choice is first.

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I think most people would agree that abortion is generally not the right choice. The question, then, is how do we discourage it?

if you get an abortion you might as well start drinking and smoking because your chance of getting cancer has increased drastically.

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I would just like to point out that this statement is completely inaccurate. That is all.

Dittohead not! said:

does an aborted fetus represent an intelligence that never will get a chance to exist at all?

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Not at all. It's a lifeless blob of gooey matter... That's what my wife's doctor told me when she had her miscarriage.

As an Ob, he knew more about what happens up inside there than all the scientific theorists combined...

ricksfolly

ricksfolly said:

Not at all. It's a lifeless blob of gooey matter...
ricksfolly

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That if left alone, God willing, might one day build a car that runs on water, win the Heisman Trophy, cure diabetes, and have a family of his/her own.

Erod said:

That if left alone, God willing, might one day build a car that runs on water, win the Heisman Trophy, cure diabetes, and have a family of his/her own.

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You can't force someone to carry a child. And, did you know that any cell could become a person through cloning, so by your logic every cell is a human being.

Dittohead not! said:

The whole pro life vs pro choice debate brings up a lot of questions, some without answers.

For one thing, does an aborted fetus represent an intelligence that never will get a chance to exist at all?

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Well, more then likely yes... everyone has the potential to contribute to society.... but that doesn't necessarily mean that the fetus being destroyed is going to contribute.

Or is the spirit that would have inhabited the new body simply born to someone else?

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That's subjective on a persons beliefs on the after-life...

Try finding a definitive answer to that one. The interesting thing is that the pro life voices tend to be the same ones who believe that a human being has a spirit as well as a body.

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More like the pro-choice voices tend to not believe that a fetus is actually a human.... if they accepted that first premise then it's not much of a stretch to include most people's normal belief that taking a person's life is wrong, except in self-defense.

Another question is this: Is being pro choice the same as pro abortion?
Or does it mean that the pro choice person is really in favor of allowing others to make a choice that he himself finds reprehensible?

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Pro-choice is just let people make their own choice... and may or may not be 'pro-abortion'...

In other words, if abortion is outlawed, will that stop it?

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No.

Will it slow it down, even?

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Probably some, but outlawing an activity doesn't typically lead to that activity to be easily tracked.

Are there better ways of encouraging people to make the right choice, while allowing the choice to be made?

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Ya, teach our children proper family values, personal responsibility, and the difference between right and wrong, and psychological help for those women that view pregnancy as a disease, and the baby a tumor. That would reduce the perceived NEED for many abortions...

Chew on that one for a while.

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Ya, I'm just waiting to be told that my opinions don't matter on abortion because I'm of the same species that infects women with the disease of pregnancy.