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Gay Republican Group Prompts Split Among Conservatives

danarhea said:
Away from Conservative principles? I call BS on that one.
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His comment made me lol... WTF.. If the GOP embraces homosexual men and women, then they are against families and against Conservative principles? That sounds so ignorant. How are gay people destroying families?? I want to punch these people in the face. :mad:
 
Deuce said:
Yes, I always wondered how:

"Small government!"

became

"Small government!*

*except for homos. government should interfere there."
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I think it's Christian government... I have been told that they have claim to this country and are doing what the founders want
 
The article that started this thread said, "two socially conservative groups, the Family Research Council and Concerned Women of America, announced that they are opting out of next year's CPAC because GOProud had been invited." While all that may be true, there is one detail not mentioned in that line, that's very important in understanding the basis for their decision.

Sure, both those groups are conservative in nature and support the political right in America, but their political beliefs had nothing to do with their decision to drop out of next years CPAC conference. The truth is, their decision wasn't based on a political doctrine, but rather on a religious one. Both of those groups main purpose and function, centers around faith and religion, as their websites make clear.

Concerned Women for America (CWA) on their website says their purpose is "helping our members across the country bring Biblical principles into all levels of public policy" While the Family Research Council (FRC) provides "advanced faith, family and freedom in public policy and public opinion" and also states that "through our outreach to pastors, we equip churches to transform the culture."

So even though both of those groups are conservative, their decision to boycott CPAC was derived from religious convictions, not political beliefs. Something that I'm sure will be left unsaid by a large majority of the American media, and the total majority of liberal bloggers and pundits.
 
Grim17 said:
The article that started this thread said, "two socially conservative groups, the Family Research Council and Concerned Women of America, announced that they are opting out of next year's CPAC because GOProud had been invited." While all that may be true, there is one detail not mentioned in that line, that's very important in understanding the basis for their decision.

Sure, both those groups are conservative in nature and support the political right in America, but their political beliefs had nothing to do with their decision to drop out of next years CPAC conference. The truth is, their decision wasn't based on a political doctrine, but rather on a religious one. Both of those groups main purpose and function, centers around faith and religion, as their websites make clear.

Concerned Women for America (CWA) on their website says their purpose is "helping our members across the country bring Biblical principles into all levels of public policy" While the Family Research Council (FRC) provides "advanced faith, family and freedom in public policy and public opinion" and also states that "through our outreach to pastors, we equip churches to transform the culture."

So even though both of those groups are conservative, their decision to boycott CPAC was derived from religious convictions, not political beliefs. Something that I'm sure will be left unsaid by a large majority of the American media, and the total majority of liberal bloggers and pundits.
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Really? It's all the liberal media's fault now? And it's just religious grounds? Even though FRC stated "However, we will no longer be involved with CPAC because of the organization's financial mismanagement and movement away from conservative principles"?(source: warning, WorldNutDaily link: Biggest conservative names bidding goodbye to CPAC) Sounds like their reason was political to me, by their own words made to a conservative media outlet.
 
Zyphlin said:
With the whole "bigot" thing, what we're coming down to and what we need to realize is we're at that threshold where a particular thing that has long been considered deviant/weird/non-supported is finally at that near equilibrium point where in common every day practice the notion is changing from its old status to "acceptable" or even "positive".

Frankly, I'd say that about 70-80% of the people hold honest and reasonable views with regards to it based on their morals, ethics, and principles and not based off either extreme true bigotry, extreme guilt, or selfish individually focused interest.

Look, lets top pretending that somehow its "bigoted" to view certain things negatively. While yes, I fully believe personally that homosexuality can be a natural occurrence (I also do think it can be environmental), the need to be "Flaming" or "In your face, out and proud" is no more a biological impartitive then being goth, being geeky, being a bully, being a scientologist, being a sleezy guy, being fat, looking "punk", living an open S&M lifestyle, etc. When's the last time you seen someone making fun of Tom Cruise for being a scientologist a bigot? How about someone piking on Goth kids? How quickly do people roll eyes when someone gets on a high horse talking about bigotry towards fat people?

What is "normal", "acceptable", "Okay", etc is essentially a social construct. Nothing more, nothing less. There's no universal "acceptable" or even unacceptable. Its a construct of society. And as such, society right now is reaching that point where there's enough that view the issue on both sides that conflict is occuring at its peak level. Over the next few years inevitably its going to start coming down the other side and it will begin to be looked at more and more universally as acceptable and then even normal. However, its not there and its not been close to that, and I don't think people simply holding on to traditional cultural views and principles because of their entire lifes teaching and environmental experience equals automatically a "bigot". I think its ridiculous hypocritical the VAST majority of times people throw it out there because I guarantee that almost every person that has thrown it out there has been entirely and completely "bigoted" and negative towards something they view as odd, not normal, weird, deviant, etc before...it just happens that society as a whole is still okay with them acting that way towards that attitude, action, style, what have you.
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People aren't called bigoted because they disapprove of homosexuality. They are called bigoted because they support laws restricting gays from obtaining the same benefits, rights and privileges he rest of us have. Your post is nothing but one long excuse for supporting clearly anti-gay policies. Call me whenever they decide to make a law barring fat people and Tom Cruise from visiting their partners at hospitals.
 
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Vincent said:
Okay. I'll explain.

If sodomite "marriage" becomes a legalized thing, then Christians lose. Because a wrong lifestyle that was formerly kept private and out of public eye for the most part will become something that everyone is expected to approve of.
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Sorry but that is completely illogical. Something being "legal" does not equate to it automatically being "expected to approve of". There are many things currently LEGAL that Christians do not approve of, that does not mean Christians lose. It means we are a diverse nation with freedoms that some approve or disaprove of. Gay Marriage WHEN legalized will just be one of those things legal that Christians do not approve of.
 
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From everything i have read, and understood on this issue, it isn't so much that this group is GAY, is that they are highly Activist, and want the GOP to ignore Social Issues and to stop pushing Traditional Family Values that has caused the biggest problem.

That's a far cry from Bigotry, however, that's par for the course with some folks. You can support gays, and be conservative, you can be gay and conservative... however for some, if you don't embrace the agenda of an activist gay group, you are a bigot.


Go figure.
 
MrVicchio said:
From everything i have read, and understood on this issue, it isn't so much that this group is GAY, is that they are highly Activist, and want the GOP to ignore Social Issues and to stop pushing Traditional Family Values that has caused the biggest problem.

That's a far cry from Bigotry, however, that's par for the course with some folks. You can support gays, and be conservative, you can be gay and conservative... however for some, if you don't embrace the agenda of an activist gay group, you are a bigot.


Go figure.
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Show me where they are anything other than typical republicans, outside of being gay. Here. let me help you: » About GOProud

GOProud represents gay conservatives and their allies. GOProud is committed to a traditional conservative agenda that emphasizes limited government, individual liberty, free markets and a confident foreign policy. GOProud promotes our traditional conservative agenda by influencing politics and policy at the federal level.
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Redress said:
Show me where they are anything other than typical republicans, outside of being gay. Here. let me help you: » About GOProud
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I see you're still incapable of reading or debating honestly.

The push Fiscally Conservative Principles, Strong D, I didn't say they did not. But there are moral beliefs that some Conservatives hold dear. These Moral Values don't jive with GOPROUDS actions or statements.

Is it bigotry to stand up for those things one believes in when faced with the choice of working with (in the case of CPAC) a group that wishes to stop such defense of certain moral principles?

That's the issue.

While I'm not defending or condemning anyone here, I'm trying to be honest about the issue. Unlike you, dan and others. All this thread has been is "If you don't support GOPROUD YOU'RE A BIGOT HATER AND NOT CONSERVATIVE!!!"

It's really quite dishonest. GOPROUD isn't a BAD group, but some of what they believe in, notice they ignore social issues on their mission statement? there is a reason for that Redress. And the crux of the issue. It's not about Bigotry, it's about a difference in opinion on where the GOP and the Conservative movement needs to move. Embrace folks that share many of the same views, but on some hold 180 degree different views? Or to protest that and move in a different direction?


Liberals like yourself, moral/social liberals like Dan and others trying to cast this as a bunch of bigots hating says more about your motives then it does anything else.
 
So what are you talking about? You make these claims, and yet I can see nothing where they differ from typical republicans other than on gay issues. Is that all the difference? Make your point and be specific instead of these undocumented vague accusations. I am not a republican, I don't have a dog in this fight.

By the way, please feel free to point out where I have been dishonest in this thread. You claimed it, now back it up.
 
Funny thing is this thread started implying that this 'bigotry' towards gays was sort of a republican issue. Just out of curiosity...how many blacks and hispanics voted against gay marriage in California? What would you like to bet that the majority were democrat? People are people, The majority of people still believe homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong and the majority still oppose changing the laws. Democrats AND republicans.
 
Redress said:
So what are you talking about? You make these claims, and yet I can see nothing where they differ from typical republicans other than on gay issues. Is that all the difference? Make your point and be specific instead of these undocumented vague accusations. I am not a republican, I don't have a dog in this fight.

By the way, please feel free to point out where I have been dishonest in this thread. You claimed it, now back it up.
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Just above. I discussed the GOPROUD social stances as being the reason for the disagreement between some segments of the CPAC members. Yet you completely ignored that and focused on their other stances, which are fairly in-line with conservative norms. The implication you tried to pass off was GOPROUD is just like every other Conservative Group but happens to be Gay so there is no reason NOT to accept them... except hate.


You're transparent Redress. If you want to continue this fallacy that GOP Proud is nothing more then "just a Conservative group that happens to be gay" by all means, be my guest.

The fact is, they also have a different social agenda then other Conservative groups. And those two moral/social POV's don't jive. It has little to do with hate and everything to do with where the disparate groups feel the Conservative Movement should go.
 
VanceMack said:
Funny thing is this thread started implying that this 'bigotry' towards gays was sort of a republican issue. Just out of curiosity...how many blacks and hispanics voted against gay marriage in California? What would you like to bet that the majority were democrat? People are people, The majority of people still believe homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong and the majority still oppose changing the laws. Democrats AND republicans.
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Polling suggests that it is not a majority who think homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong. In many cases, polling shows the opposite in fact. Here is a ton of polling data: Civil Rights

By the way, why is it referred to as "homosexual lifestyle"? Do straits have a "heterosexual lifestyle"? Are there any differences besides who they sleep with?
 
Redress said:
Polling suggests that it is not a majority who think homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong. In many cases, polling shows the opposite in fact. Here is a ton of polling data: Civil Rights

By the way, why is it referred to as "homosexual lifestyle"? Do straits have a "heterosexual lifestyle"? Are there any differences besides who they sleep with?
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How many elections where it has been put to a vote of the people have resulted in a majority voting FOR gay marriage?

Call it whatever the **** you want. I prefer not to play stupid word games with you.
 
MrVicchio said:
Just above. I discussed the GOPROUD social stances as being the reason for the disagreement between some segments of the CPAC members. Yet you completely ignored that and focused on their other stances, which are fairly in-line with conservative norms. The implication you tried to pass off was GOPROUD is just like every other Conservative Group but happens to be Gay so there is no reason NOT to accept them... except hate.
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I copied and pasted their full statement. I linked to the "about us" page from their website. I have not focused on anything, but presented what was available. I made no implication, period.

You're transparent Redress. If you want to continue this fallacy that GOP Proud is nothing more then "just a Conservative group that happens to be gay" by all means, be my guest.
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I asked. You have yet to show how they are anything but a conservative group that happens to be gay. You have yet to point to a single issue they differ from republicans on, other than gay issues.

The fact is, they also have a different social agenda then other Conservative groups. And those two moral/social POV's don't jive. It has little to do with hate and everything to do with where the disparate groups feel the Conservative Movement should go.
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Different how? Is it just gay issues, or is it something else? You keep saying this, but when questioned, instead of expanding on it, you just repeat it. Back up your statements with little things like facts. So far you have not offered any facts, just evasions and namecalling.
 
VanceMack said:
How many elections where it has been put to a vote of the people have resulted in a majority voting FOR gay marriage?

Call it whatever the **** you want. I prefer not to play stupid word games with you.
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The only Poll that matters is at the ballot box. Oregon, Cali and other left leaning states have rejected Gay Marriage. It's part of the "Big Lie" tactic to push "American's really DON'T have a problem with gay marriage see this poll..."

The problem isn't "who you sleep with. I could give a rats rear less what you do in private. It's the GAY LIFESTYLE, the in your face public displays of the sexual side of being Gay that causes people the biggest problem. What's that street fair in San Fran that every year gets more and more... obscene? Stuff like that causes the public to get the heebie jeebies over the Gay Lifestyle.
 
VanceMack said:
How many elections where it has been put to a vote of the people have resulted in a majority voting FOR gay marriage?

Call it whatever the **** you want. I prefer not to play stupid word games with you.
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You are moving the goalposts. "the majority of people still believe homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong" is not the same thing as "gay marriage is wrong". I responded to the first, not the second, since that was what you wrote.
 
Redress said:
You are moving the goalposts. "the majority of people still believe homosexuality as a lifestyle is wrong" is not the same thing as "gay marriage is wrong". I responded to the first, not the second, since that was what you wrote.
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And you know perfectly well that polls can be made to say anything you want them to say. Do you know how they game polls? They call people at home during the day. They poll people at the mall after three but before 6. They conduct polls aroundcollege campuses. They target working folks by polling between 6-8 pm. They ask slanted questions (ever seen any of the polls on THIS site?) or provide answers that are guaranteed to bring about certain responses. People that cite polls do it because it fits their causes. Back to the second since you dont like the first. How many times have Americans voted against gay marriage?
 
MrVicchio said:
The only Poll that matters is at the ballot box. Oregon, Cali and other left leaning states have rejected Gay Marriage. It's part of the "Big Lie" tactic to push "American's really DON'T have a problem with gay marriage see this poll..."

The problem isn't "who you sleep with. I could give a rats rear less what you do in private. It's the GAY LIFESTYLE, the in your face public displays of the sexual side of being Gay that causes people the biggest problem. What's that street fair in San Fran that every year gets more and more... obscene? Stuff like that causes the public to get the heebie jeebies over the Gay Lifestyle.
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Voters are typically older, and the younger people are the less likely a person will have a problem with LGBT people. Once my generation starts voting, that is when SSM will be successful in the ballot box, but hopefully by that time, it will already be in place.
 
Redress said:
I copied and pasted their full statement. I linked to the "about us" page from their website. I have not focused on anything, but presented what was available. I made no implication, period.
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Show me where they are anything other than typical republicans, outside of being gay. Here. let me help you: » About GOProud
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Redress said:
I asked. You have yet to show how they are anything but a conservative group that happens to be gay. You have yet to point to a single issue they differ from republicans on, other than gay issues.
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Social and Moral Norms. Of course it's going to be about homosexuality... it's a gay activist group. What a silly statement, and further attempts, by you to make this into an issue of "bigotry".


Redress said:
Different how? Is it just gay issues, or is it something else? You keep saying this, but when questioned, instead of expanding on it, you just repeat it. Back up your statements with little things like facts. So far you have not offered any facts, just evasions and namecalling.
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Name calling? Where???

You label yourself "Very Liberal". I said you were being dishonest. And here you are, trying to shut me down by making false claims of actions I have not committed. If I am name calling utilize the report function.



I am repeating because you are dodging. The issue is on where the Conservative Movement should focus. Just fiscal/government issues, or also include social and moral views that are inline with traditional family values?


Which is where this discussion SHOULD be! Not on "hate and bigotry". That's dishonestly altering the debate to demonize those that do not share your social/moral POV. Again where the dishonesty comes in at.

Should the GOP, and by proxy the Conservative Movement alter or change it's stance on important social and moral issues? CPAC, by allowing an activist gay group like GOP PROUD in, is signaling a shift away from moral and social stances that have traditionally defined the Conservative Movement. The groups protesting by boycotting CPAC do not want to make that shift. Is it hate and bigotry or is it a different emphasis on where the movement should go?

ARE THERE bigots coming unglued. Sure. I'm not naive, but they are a minority.
 
VanceMack said:
And you know perfectly well that polls can be made to say anything you want them to say. Do you know how they game polls? They call people at home during the day. They poll people at the mall after three but before 6. They conduct polls aroundcollege campuses. They target working folks by polling between 6-8 pm. They ask slanted questions (ever seen any of the polls on THIS site?) or provide answers that are guaranteed to bring about certain responses. People that cite polls do it because it fits their causes. Back to the second since you dont like the first. How many times have Americans voted against gay marriage?
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You might have noticed that the link I provided had results from hundreds of polls. There is both a clear trend in those polls, and they do not agree with your comment I referred to. Now are you suggesting that all those polls where manipulated?
 
I asked a question MrV. I showed you their website and asked where other than gay issues they where anything but normal republicans. That is not making any implications, that is asking a rather simple question.


MrVicchio said:
Social and Moral Norms. Of course it's going to be about homosexuality... it's a gay activist group. What a silly statement, and further attempts, by you to make this into an issue of "bigotry".
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Then why didn't you say that?



Name calling? Where???

You label yourself "Very Liberal". I said you were being dishonest. And here you are, trying to shut me down by making false claims of actions I have not committed. If I am name calling utilize the report function.
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Calling some one dishonest, no that is not namecalling...



I am repeating because you are dodging. The issue is on where the Conservative Movement should focus. Just fiscal/government issues, or also include social and moral views that are inline with traditional family values?


Which is where this discussion SHOULD be! Not on "hate and bigotry". That's dishonestly altering the debate to demonize those that do not share your social/moral POV. Again where the dishonesty comes in at.

Should the GOP, and by proxy the Conservative Movement alter or change it's stance on important social and moral issues? CPAC, by allowing an activist gay group like GOP PROUD in, is signaling a shift away from moral and social stances that have traditionally defined the Conservative Movement. The groups protesting by boycotting CPAC do not want to make that shift. Is it hate and bigotry or is it a different emphasis on where the movement should go?

ARE THERE bigots coming unglued. Sure. I'm not naive, but they are a minority.
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It's not my place to tell republicans what they should or should not do with their party. I also not calling any one a bigot. I asked a simple question.
 
The Prof said:
why does obama oppose gay marriage?

Obama Still Opposes Same-Sex Marriage - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
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You are kinda losing ground on that one...

Baptist Press - MARRIAGE DIGEST: Obama signals his views on 'gay marriage' could change - News with a Christian Perspective

why did his doj in circuit compare same sex unions to incest and having relations with a 16 year old?

White House Defends Anti-Gay Marriage Brief Amid Furor
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Because it was lead by a Mormon, Republican from Utah.

AMERICAblog News: Mormon Bush holdover filed anti-gay DOMA brief today
 
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