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Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts

haymarket said:
from Conservative



Actually the issue is taxation. Conservatives and right wingers simply want to narrow the field of discussion to ONLY income tax because right wing think tanks like Cato are pushing this new meme about the 47% in an attempt to both attack voting rights and alleviate the 'burden' of taxes on the wealthy. Never lose sight of what is really going on here. Lets not pretend this is something else other than a money and power grab.
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That is the topic of the thread. It is you that wants to expand the field from the thread topic in a feeble attempt to dig yourself out of the hold you are in and your totally illogical position. Still waiting for the "fair share" that the rich should pay?
 
Awesome! said:
No, please do not wish ill will to our rich people. Pleasssssssssssssssssssssssssseeeee do not do this! How will we fund our great society without people like turtle dude?
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the looters think they do us a service by existing and demanding we pay more taxes.
 
haymarket said:
You are simply following the marching orders of right wing think tanks like Cato and others who are attempting to frame the larger issue of taxation and public policy in its most narrow form possible because they believe they have a winning issue in that.

Of course, as we found out right here on our little board when we polled the issue, there is no real support for linking income tax rates to the larger issue of citizenship rights. It fails miserably.
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Marching orders? LOL, that is what a liberal does when backed into a corner which you are. Read the thread topic and respond to that topic instead of diversion away from the topic of FEDERAL INCOME TAXES and the fair rate that the rich should pay? Right now 47% of the income earners pay no Federal Income taxes. Is that fair? Are you telling me that those 47% cannot pay anything in Federal Income Taxes? Do you really think that 47% of the people that don't pay any Federal Income Taxes have any problem raising the taxes on the other 53%?
 
Conservative said:
That is the topic of the thread. It is you that wants to expand the field from the thread topic in a feeble attempt to dig yourself out of the hold you are in and your totally illogical position. Still waiting for the "fair share" that the rich should pay?
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You can wait until a certain mythical kingdom freezes over if it pleases you. That is up to you. Taxes are taxes are taxes. If Shakespeare did not put it that way he certainly could have. The right wing only wants to narrow this discussion to income taxes for political and economic reasons that they envision benefitting themselves. It is a pure and simple money and power grab. And since you are part of that you chose to ignore its darker motivations.
 
Conservative said:
Marching orders? LOL, that is what a liberal does when backed into a corner which you are. Read the thread topic and respond to that topic instead of diversion away from the topic of FEDERAL INCOME TAXES and the fair rate that the rich should pay? Right now 47% of the income earners pay no Federal Income taxes. Is that fair? Are you telling me that those 47% cannot pay anything in Federal Income Taxes? Do you really think that 47% of the people that don't pay any Federal Income Taxes have any problem raising the taxes on the other 53%?
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If you claim that Haymarket-who admits to being a dem party loyalist is taking his orders from his dem masters he gets upset. He WILL NEVER DEAL with your excellent point-the current system encourages the non-income tax payers to demand that the rates of others go up and up and up
 
TurtleDude said:
If you claim that Haymarket-who admits to being a dem party loyalist is taking his orders from his dem masters he gets upset. He WILL NEVER DEAL with your excellent point-the current system encourages the non-income tax payers to demand that the rates of others go up and up and up
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Actually all I advocate is a honest discussion based on honest figures. Any discussion with intentionally limits a discussion of taxation and how much a person pays but limits itself to a single tax, is structured to be dishonest right out of the gate.
But you know that going in and you set it up that way intentionally to skew the results to fit into your own motivations, goals and efforts to grab money and power.
 
haymarket said:
You can wait until a certain mythical kingdom freezes over if it pleases you. That is up to you. Taxes are taxes are taxes. If Shakespeare did not put it that way he certainly could have. The right wing only wants to narrow this discussion to income taxes for political and economic reasons that they envision benefitting themselves. It is a pure and simple money and power grab. And since you are part of that you chose to ignore its darker motivations.
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This isn't a right or left issue, this is a thread issue. Most other taxes are USE taxes so if you don't use the product or services you don't pay the taxes. Weren't you taught that? Seems you know what motivates everyone else which is normally the case when you are backed into a corner and try to change the topic.
 
haymarket said:
Actually all I advocate is a honest discussion based on honest figures. Any discussion with intentionally limits a discussion of taxation and how much a person pays but limits itself to a single tax, is structured to be dishonest right out of the gate.
But you know that going in and you set it up that way intentionally to skew the results to fit into your own motivations, goals and efforts to grab money and power.
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you want to try to avoid the fact that a large number of voters pay NO federal income tax by claiming since they pay other taxes that somehow is sufficient in a discussion about how those who don't pay the FIT have an incentive to jack up the rates on others.

It is DISHONEST on your part to rant about FICA etc when this thread is about the INCOME TAX RATE Extension and why many of us tire of those who pay no FEDERAL INCOME TAX demanding that our rates go up.

your crap about this skews the results is moronic-it is you who tries to squirt squid ink in the water.
 
haymarket said:
Actually all I advocate is a honest discussion based on honest figures. Any discussion with intentionally limits a discussion of taxation and how much a person pays but limits itself to a single tax, is structured to be dishonest right out of the gate.
But you know that going in and you set it up that way intentionally to skew the results to fit into your own motivations, goals and efforts to grab money and power.
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Here is the thread topic since obviously you don't quite get it yet even after 57 posts.

Obama Signs Bill To Extend Bush Tax Cuts.
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The Bush tax cuts were rate cuts for all income earners. Right now 47% don't pay any Federal income taxes which no one wants to discuss. Is that fair?
 
TurtleDude said:
you want to try to avoid the fact that a large number of voters pay NO federal income tax by claiming since they pay other taxes that somehow is sufficient in a discussion about how those who don't pay the FIT have an incentive to jack up the rates on others.

It is DISHONEST on your part to rant about FICA etc when this thread is about the INCOME TAX RATE Extension and why many of us tire of those who pay no FEDERAL INCOME TAX demanding that our rates go up.

your crap about this skews the results is moronic-it is you who tries to squirt squid ink in the water.
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Not avoiding it at all. Understand this straight out I DON'T CARE. Got that? If not here it is again....

I
DON'T
CARE

Now what about that are you not clear about? No avoidance, no dodging, no weaving, no equivocation. Go back and read it again if you are still not clear about my attitude with your precious 47% figure.

Any discussion of taxes in the USA that attempts to focus on just one single tax and ignores the dozens of other taxes that people pay in inherently a dishonest discussion.
 
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haymarket said:
Not avoiding it at all. Understand this straight out I DON'T CARE. Got that? If not here it is again....

I
DON'T
CARE

Now what about that are you not clear about? No avoidance, no dodging, no weaving, no equivocation. Go back and read it again if you are still not clear about my attitude with your precious 47% figure.

Any discussion of taxes in the USA that attempts to focus on just one single tax and ignores the dozens of other taxes that people pay in inherently a dishonest discussion.
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You don't care? Really? then why posting on this thread? This thread is about Federal Income taxes and the fact is you do care or you wouldn't be here and keep diverting to other taxes from the thread topic. No liberal can really defend their position thus the need to divert. Carry on!
 
OF course you don't care-as long as your taxes don't go up, you are happy with the rates of others increasing because that is how your party buys votes. I suggest if you don't care you ought to stop spewing your swill on this thread
 
TurtleDude said:
OF course you don't care-as long as your taxes don't go up, you are happy with the rates of others increasing because that is how your party buys votes. I suggest if you don't care you ought to stop spewing your swill on this thread
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You misunderstand completely and totally.

I pay taxes. I care about my payment of taxes. I pay your precious income tax. I care about my payment of your precious income tax.

What I DO NOT CARE ABOUT is that some people do not pay your precious income tax because you are attempting to use that narrow issue for your own economic and political purposes as a money and power grab.

Got that?

That is hardly 'swill' to inform people of what is going on. Or would you prefer that the curtain is not drawn back so they can see you behind it utilizing the smoke and mirrors for your own selfish purposes.
 
haymarket said:
You misunderstand completely and totally.

I pay taxes. I care about my payment of taxes. I pay your precious income tax. I care about my payment of your precious income tax.

What I DO NOT CARE ABOUT is that some people do not pay your precious income tax because you are attempting to use that narrow issue for your own economic and political purposes as a money and power grab.

Got that?

That is hardly 'swill' to inform people of what is going on. Or would you prefer that the curtain is not drawn back so they can see you behind it utilizing the smoke and mirrors for your own selfish purposes.
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What really bothers me is that you seem to have grown up with that class envy attitude and believe that anyone who has a problem with 47% of the people not paying any Federal Income taxes is selfish. Instead of people keeping more of what they earn being selfish how about a bloated Federal govt. that has created dependence and promoted class envy all in an attempt to grow power. you and others like you don't seem to get it. People keeping more of what they earn promotes individual wealth creation and not Federal power growth.
 
Conservative said:
What really bothers me is that you seem to have grown up with that class envy attitude and believe that anyone who has a problem with 47% of the people not paying any Federal Income taxes is selfish. Instead of people keeping more of what they earn being selfish how about a bloated Federal govt. that has created dependence and promoted class envy all in an attempt to grow power. you and others like you don't seem to get it. People keeping more of what they earn promotes individual wealth creation and not Federal power growth.
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Oh brother! Which website do you two go to for your daily talking points to make sure you are both on the same page? You should just print a link to it and save time for all concerned.

Anyone trying to REDUCE their own tax burden while trying to INCREASE the tax burden on others is indeed motivated by what they can put in their own pocket. A fact like that is a stubborn thing and there is no disguising it. Is that selfish? I would guess that many would agree that it is.

Yes I get it. But I just DO NOT CARE about it the way you want me to care about it. What part of I DON'T CARE needs further explaining to you?

This entire effort is part of a right wing effort to decrease the political power of their opposition and increase the amount of wealth they have. This must always be right in the forefront of any discussion on this topic.
 
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haymarket said:
Oh brother! Which website do you two go to for your daily talking points to make sure you are both on the same page? You should just print a link to it and save time for all concerned.

Anyone trying to REDUCE their own tax burden while trying to INCREASE the tax burden on others is indeed motivated by what they can put in their own pocket. A fact like that is a stubborn thing and there is no disguising it.

Yes I get it. But I just DO NOT CARE about it the way you want me to care about it. What part of I DON'T CARE needs further explaining to you?

This entire effort is part of a right wing effort to decrease the political power of their opposition and increase the amount of wealth they have. This must always be right in the forefront of any discussion on this topic.
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Sorry, you don't get it as you continue to divert from the thread topic in hopes of baiting me. This isn't about reducing my tax liability as the extension of the Bush tax cuts doesn't reduce anything, they keep things the same. The entire argument from the left is raising the taxes on the rich and you want to divert from that argument. I asked you what was a fair tax rate for the rich and pointed out that 47% of the income earners don't pay any Federal Income taxes. Is that fair?

But we are getting somewhere as you seem to believe that taxes increase political power. Good, because that is right thus the reason the left is fighting so hard to raise taxes and why they have such passion for this issue. You fit right in with all other members of the left, but the difference is you cannot admit it.
 
TurtleDude said:
and where does it say that the rich are actually getting any additional benefits? They don't
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So?

TurtleDude said:
the people who pay NO income tax actually get far more benefits FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT than those who pay 40% of the income tax and all the death tax
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Probably because the ones who instituted those benefits realized that people were more important than money, and a person who was poor were often more sick than those that were rich. As such they made very poor workers. (no pun intended) And that is what you don't realize Turtle, without the poor people, you wouldn't have the money or material wealth that you do.
 
Kal'Stang said:
So?



Probably because the ones who instituted those benefits realized that people were more important than money, and a person who was poor were often more sick than those that were rich. As such they made very poor workers. (no pun intended) And that is what you don't realize Turtle, without the poor people, you wouldn't have the money or material wealth that you do.
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How do the rich make you poor?
 
Conservative said:
Sorry, you don't get it as you continue to divert from the thread topic in hopes of baiting me. This isn't about reducing my tax liability as the extension of the Bush tax cuts doesn't reduce anything, they keep things the same. The entire argument from the left is raising the taxes on the rich and you want to divert from that argument. I asked you what was a fair tax rate for the rich and pointed out that 47% of the income earners don't pay any Federal Income taxes. Is that fair?

But we are getting somewhere as you seem to believe that taxes increase political power. Good, because that is right thus the reason the left is fighting so hard to raise taxes and why they have such passion for this issue. You fit right in with all other members of the left, but the difference is you cannot admit it.
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Sorry but the Bush tax cuts expired on the last day of this year. That was part of the law. They are done, over, finished, ended. The new bill passed by Congress establishes the same tax rates for another two years. The new law did indeed reduce tax liability that was part of the language of the previous tax bill that was signed into law. If nothing had been done there would indeed have been an increase that was passed earlier under Bush. To prevent that increase, the rates scheduled to go into effect on Jan.1, 2011 had to be reduced. Its amazing that you do not understand that simple fact of life.

I do not know what you are talking about in your last paragraph. Sorry. Perhaps you can quote my exact words and tell me what you think I said.

I have no idea what the word FAIR means in this context. I have repeatedly told you that but you persist like a small child who keeps pestering his parent until he gets what he wants simply by being a pest. It will not work as I have already explained to you several times. I would advise you to go back and read my previous posts.
 
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TurtleDude said:
Loose all your wealth? your envy is pretty common among people like you. Thanks for proving my point as to what motivates the looter class. People who pay most of the taxes benefit people like you. Tax consumers like you don't benefit those of us who pay taxes
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Didn't you read my post? Or are you intentionally "misunderstanding" it? I stated in it why I wished that you lost all your wealth. And it had absolutely nothing to do with "envy". If you didn't act like you were better than poor people and that you should have the right to rule them then I could care less if you kept your money or not. Would it be nice if I had more money? Certainly. But that doesn't mean that I would ordinarily begrudge anyone else their money. You just happen to be one of the rare exceptions because of your attitude.
 
from Kal'Stang to Turtle

Or are you intentionally "misunderstanding" it?
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It certainly would NOT be the first time this has happened here.
 
Conservative said:
Of course the rich will always pay more because they make more. The flat tax means everyone pays the same rate but never the same amount. Not sure you understand the question. Throughout this thread the comments have been made about the rich paying their fair share and I simply asked what that fair share was and also asked if 47% not paying ANY FEDERAL INCOME Taxes was fair? Then I get the tax debate with claims that that 47% pay some taxes which was never the issue. The issue is FEDERAL INCOME TAXES!
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The reason that you get those posts is because by limiting it all to just federal income taxes you are not looking at the whole picture. I can't count how many times I've been told that only looking at part of the picture is not indicitive of what the whole picture is like.

Is the way it all is now fair? On a 1:1 basis no it is not. The only way that it will ever be fair is if everyone pays the same amount...which just isn't possible.
 
Conservative said:
This isn't a right or left issue, this is a thread issue. Most other taxes are USE taxes so if you don't use the product or services you don't pay the taxes. Weren't you taught that? Seems you know what motivates everyone else which is normally the case when you are backed into a corner and try to change the topic.
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All taxes are "use" taxes (with the exception of the HCR fine). The only difference between a federal tax and a tax on a product is what is being used.
 
haymarket said:
Sorry but the Bush tax cuts expired on the last day of this year. That was part of the law. They are done, over, finished, ended. The new bill passed by Congress establishes the same tax rates for another two years. The new law did indeed reduce tax liability that was part of the language of the previous tax bill that was signed into law. If nothing had been done there would indeed have been an increase that was passed earlier under Bush. To prevent that increase, the rates scheduled to go into effect on Jan.1, 2011 had to be reduced. Its amazing that you do not understand that simple fact of life.

I do not know what you are talking about in your last paragraph. Sorry. Perhaps you can quote my exact words and tell me what you think I said.

I have no idea what the word FAIR means in this context. I have repeatedly told you that but you persist like a small child who keeps pestering his parent until he gets what he wants simply by being a pest. It will not work as I have already explained to you several times. I would advise you to go back and read my previous posts.
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Now there is an interesting spin that once again ignores reality. Why were the Bush tax cuts scheduled to expire at the end of this year? As a professor of civics I am sure you can figure it out. Now also a professor of civics did you ever teach your students the role of the Federal Govt and the taxes that the Federal Govt. collects?

I know this is hard for you but read the thread topic and stop diverting. Obama campaigned for three years to eliminate the Bush tax cuts then signs a bill extending those tax cuts including for the "rich" claiming now that the tax cuts are good for America. You don't see the hypocrisy there? As for the new bill, in your civics education did anyone explain to you what FICA funded? Cutting that tax cuts what?

The last paragraph it does appear to me that since you believe that keeping more money reduces political power of the govt. I wonder why that is a bad thing. As for your previous posts my sincere hope is that there are other civics teachers out there that understand the true role of the Federal Govt.
 
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