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Two Major Conservative Obstacles Emerge To Tax Cut Compromise

TurtleDude said:
I do not for two reasons. One is my concept of fairness which is objectivist. The second is the fact that a progressive tax system ultimately will collapse
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My concept of fairness is based on outcomes, not on superficial intermediates. The damage caused by a 5% increase in tax for example, has a significantly higher cost for those who are already spending most of their income, and can barely get by paying their bills, than it does for the mega-rich, whom will see a number in a savings account drop a few digits. Assets have diminishing returns. A 5% increase in income after tax for someone say.... living on under a dollar a day could be the difference between feeding your children or not. A 5% increase in income for someone in the lower class in the United States could mean the difference between being able to pay the bills or not. A 5% increase in income for someone in the middle class could mean the difference between sending your 5 kids through college or not. A 5% difference in income after tax for someone earning a 1 million+ salary could be the difference between a Ferrari and a Porsche. Thus, I consider a 5% tax increase for those earning 1 million+ a near insignificant deduction, while a 5% tax increase for the lower class a devastating blow, and support a progressive tax system.

A long, long time ago they had a flat tax system in Athens. They would kick those out who couldn't pay the tax. Eventually they changed to a progressive tax system. The progressive tax system is taking it's damn time collapsing.
 
TurtleDude said:
The pseudo-intellectual liberals who make up the majority of the left on this board have a stock reply that the rich should just bend over and take it. However, reality suggests that rich people tend to leave when they are gouged too much which is why Sweden's famous tennis stars of the 70s and 80s all lived in Monte Carlo as did some of the German pros like Boris Becker. I know, personally, 5 millionaires who have established residences in places such as the Turks and Cacos or Grand Cayman to prevent the death tax from raping their estates. Now some of the less thoughtful libs will say "good riddance" but as this happens more and more the amount of net tax payers decrease which will cause the parasite mindset to demand others who remain pay more and more


it is a system that cannot continue to exist for long
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As an example, I retired because the taxes including state and Federal, even as they stand now not profitable enough. I may do some consulting if I get bored done the line. And yes, I would have no problem moving if the tax situation became untenable.
 
SirPwn4lot said:
My concept of fairness is based on outcomes, not on superficial intermediates. The damage caused by a 5% increase in tax for example, has a significantly higher cost for those who are already spending most of their income, and can barely get by paying their bills, than it does for the mega-rich, whom will see a number in a savings account drop a few digits. Assets have diminishing returns. A 5% increase in income after tax for someone say.... living on under a dollar a day could be the difference between feeding your children or not. A 5% increase in income for someone in the lower class in the United States could mean the difference between being able to pay the bills or not. A 5% increase in income for someone in the middle class could mean the difference between sending your 5 kids through college or not. A 5% difference in income after tax for someone earning a 1 million+ salary could be the difference between a Ferrari and a Porsche. Thus, I consider a 5% tax increase for those earning 1 million+ a near insignificant deduction, while a 5% tax increase for the lower class a devastating blow, and support a progressive tax system.

A long, long time ago they had a flat tax system in Athens. They would kick those out who couldn't pay the tax. Eventually they changed to a progressive tax system. The progressive tax system is taking it's damn time collapsing.
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There are a lot of problems with the current tax system. If the income tax was more broad based, then it would be easier to sell a more progressive tax. The burden of paying for the government needs to be shared my essentially all citizens.

My sense is that you give away the moral grounds to ask higher income folks to pay more when you are unwilling to ask many to pay anything.
 
SirPwn4lot said:
My concept of fairness is based on outcomes, not on superficial intermediates. The damage caused by a 5% increase in tax for example, has a significantly higher cost for those who are already spending most of their income, and can barely get by paying their bills, than it does for the mega-rich, whom will see a number in a savings account drop a few digits. Assets have diminishing returns. A 5% increase in income after tax for someone say.... living on under a dollar a day could be the difference between feeding your children or not. A 5% increase in income for someone in the lower class in the United States could mean the difference between being able to pay the bills or not. A 5% increase in income for someone in the middle class could mean the difference between sending your 5 kids through college or not. A 5% difference in income after tax for someone earning a 1 million+ salary could be the difference between a Ferrari and a Porsche. Thus, I consider a 5% tax increase for those earning 1 million+ a near insignificant deduction, while a 5% tax increase for the lower class a devastating blow, and support a progressive tax system.

A long, long time ago they had a flat tax system in Athens. They would kick those out who couldn't pay the tax. Eventually they changed to a progressive tax system. The progressive tax system is taking it's damn time collapsing.
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you ignore the problems of telling a majority of people-in order to get their votes-that everything they want will be paid for by the "rich" and the majority have no duty to object to the spending used to buy their votes
 
TurtleDude said:
The pseudo-intellectual liberals who make up the majority of the left on this board have a stock reply that the rich should just bend over and take it. However, reality suggests that rich people tend to leave when they are gouged too much which is why Sweden's famous tennis stars of the 70s and 80s all lived in Monte Carlo as did some of the German pros like Boris Becker. I know, personally, 5 millionaires who have established residences in places such as the Turks and Cacos or Grand Cayman to prevent the death tax from raping their estates. Now some of the less thoughtful libs will say "good riddance" but as this happens more and more the amount of net tax payers decrease which will cause the parasite mindset to demand others who remain pay more and more


it is a system that cannot continue to exist for long
Click to expand...

Sooo... The Clinton tax structure raped millionaires? Because this pseudo-intellectual clap-trap from a small number of conservatives is not based in fact or numbers of any sort. Quite the opposite. 2% of the population still unsatisfied with ruling the roost for the past 35 years is a guarantee that this system cannot exist for too long. You won't even pay for the cuts - or the wars that increased your wealth. The ones the 2% never fight themselves.

Reagan tax cuts: Recession and banking crisis. Massive debt.
Bush tax cuts: Recession and banking crisis. Massive debt.

If you guys were so brilliant, why are we in this mess? The economy should have been zooming right along and middle class incomes would not have dropped $2500.00 or so over eight years. 800,000 private sector jobs would not have been lost over that same 8 years. You something for nothing folks, however, did fine, didn't ya? Your incomes grew exponentially. So please spare the sob story. 2% is making policy for the 98%. That's not any way to run a country, Mussolini.

As for tennis stars, lmao. More of those high job creation income levels,

Geez, if you have an estate worth over $10 million (married, $5 million single) and you can't protect it, you need a new accountant. Besides, Obama gave you exactly what you wanted. What's the problem? The fact it came from Obama?
 
your understanding of cause and effect is as pathetic as your hatred of the rich. What I want is

1) no income or estate taxes

2) courts that actually take the tenth amendment seriously
 
TurtleDude said:
you ignore the problems of telling a majority of people-in order to get their votes-that everything they want will be paid for by the "rich" and the majority have no duty to object to the spending used to buy their votes
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Thing is, the left has never said that. The right just says they do and it becomes the rule of thumb, for some reason.
 
TurtleDude said:
your understanding of cause and effect is as pathetic as your hatred of the rich. What I want is

1) no income or estate taxes

2) courts that actually take the tenth amendment seriously
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So... You want what benefits you? I think far-right conservatives should be given everything they want. Then I'll place bets on how long it takes before they realize they didn't really want it.
 
Kev316 said:
Thing is, the left has never said that. The right just says they do and it becomes the rule of thumb, for some reason.
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That is rather dishonest. that is what the progressive income tax is combined with the dem talking points that the taxes on the rich need to go up
 
Kev316 said:
So... You want what benefits you? I think far-right conservatives should be given everything they want. Then I'll place bets on how long it takes before they realize they didn't really want it.
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see, I noted in another post that the socialist left is going to spew "far-right" or "radical right".

I want to be not saddled with having to care for people like you
 
TurtleDude said:
your understanding of cause and effect is as pathetic as your hatred of the rich. What I want is

1) no income or estate taxes

2) courts that actually take the tenth amendment seriously
Click to expand...

Ahh so you take the view that tax is theft and you want 0% income and estate tax. Congratulations for having a consistent view!
 
SirPwn4lot said:
Ahh so you take the view that tax is theft and you want 0% income and estate tax. Congratulations for having a consistent view!
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i prefer use taxes but I realize there are some who cannot even pay that and a percentage of that group deserves public support. so I think a consumption tax is the best method since it

1) captures lots of untaxed income (ie illegal incomes that are not taxed federally at this point)

2) castrates the power of congress to pit net tax payers against net tax consumers by playing games with income tax issues

3) eliminates much of the time and effort wasted complying with the income tax code

4) rewards thrift and saving

In the alternative a flat tax with some threshold below which there is no tax would be the second alternative. once again, it prevents the many from having their votes bought by promises that only the "rich" will face tax increases.

we are never going to get the deficit in line until just about everyone has to pay for it
 
TurtleDude said:
The pseudo-intellectual liberals who make up the majority of the left on this board have a stock reply that the rich should just bend over and take it. However, reality suggests that rich people tend to leave when they are gouged too much which is why Sweden's famous tennis stars of the 70s and 80s all lived in Monte Carlo as did some of the German pros like Boris Becker. I know, personally, 5 millionaires who have established residences in places such as the Turks and Cacos or Grand Cayman to prevent the death tax from raping their estates. Now some of the less thoughtful libs will say "good riddance" but as this happens more and more the amount of net tax payers decrease which will cause the parasite mindset to demand others who remain pay more and more


it is a system that cannot continue to exist for long
Click to expand...

Don't let door hit you where the Good Lord split you.
 
haymarket said:
Don't let door hit you where the Good Lord split you.
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sorry haymarket, I plan on sticking around so when you start your promised revolution I can have some fun
 
TurtleDude said:
sorry haymarket, I plan on sticking around so when you start your promised revolution I can have some fun
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Well there is an upside and a down side to that. The upside being we all get to see you attempt to quickly recant and repent your sins in the hopes of currying favor with the new boss in town. The downside is we have to put up with you in the meantime.
 
haymarket said:
Well there is an upside and a down side to that. The upside being we all get to see you attempt to quickly recant and repent your sins in the hopes of currying favor with the new boss in town. The downside is we have to put up with you in the meantime.
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wrong as usual. But when are you going to start your violent revolution. remember, you were calling for the blood of the rich a couple days ago. are you no longer interested in playing a game for blood?
 
SirPwn4lot said:
My concept of fairness is based on outcomes, not on superficial intermediates. The damage caused by a 5% increase in tax for example, has a significantly higher cost for those who are already spending most of their income, and can barely get by paying their bills, than it does for the mega-rich, whom will see a number in a savings account drop a few digits. Assets have diminishing returns. A 5% increase in income after tax for someone say.... living on under a dollar a day could be the difference between feeding your children or not. A 5% increase in income for someone in the lower class in the United States could mean the difference between being able to pay the bills or not. A 5% increase in income for someone in the middle class could mean the difference between sending your 5 kids through college or not. A 5% difference in income after tax for someone earning a 1 million+ salary could be the difference between a Ferrari and a Porsche. Thus, I consider a 5% tax increase for those earning 1 million+ a near insignificant deduction, while a 5% tax increase for the lower class a devastating blow, and support a progressive tax system.

A long, long time ago they had a flat tax system in Athens. They would kick those out who couldn't pay the tax. Eventually they changed to a progressive tax system. The progressive tax system is taking it's damn time collapsing.
Click to expand...

If it is insignificant to those who have earned it, then why isn't it insignificant to the govt. that collects it? It remains the principle of the matter which liberals want to ignore. We have been told that it amounts to 700 billion over 10 years or 70 billion a year out of a 3.6 trillion dollar budget and a 1.3 trillion deficit. Make sense to you?
 
Kev316 said:
Sooo... The Clinton tax structure raped millionaires? Because this pseudo-intellectual clap-trap from a small number of conservatives is not based in fact or numbers of any sort. Quite the opposite. 2% of the population still unsatisfied with ruling the roost for the past 35 years is a guarantee that this system cannot exist for too long. You won't even pay for the cuts - or the wars that increased your wealth. The ones the 2% never fight themselves.

Reagan tax cuts: Recession and banking crisis. Massive debt.
Bush tax cuts: Recession and banking crisis. Massive debt.

If you guys were so brilliant, why are we in this mess? The economy should have been zooming right along and middle class incomes would not have dropped $2500.00 or so over eight years. 800,000 private sector jobs would not have been lost over that same 8 years. You something for nothing folks, however, did fine, didn't ya? Your incomes grew exponentially. So please spare the sob story. 2% is making policy for the 98%. That's not any way to run a country, Mussolini.

As for tennis stars, lmao. More of those high job creation income levels,

Geez, if you have an estate worth over $10 million (married, $5 million single) and you can't protect it, you need a new accountant. Besides, Obama gave you exactly what you wanted. What's the problem? The fact it came from Obama?
Click to expand...

Please continue to never allow facts to get in the way of your personal opinions and attempts to re-write history.

BEA links GDP and Receipts/Expense

U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

Please explain the logic of liberal policies that grow the size of govt. and redistribute wealth from those that have earned it?
 
double post
 
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TurtleDude said:
wrong as usual. But when are you going to start your violent revolution. remember, you were calling for the blood of the rich a couple days ago. are you no longer interested in playing a game for blood?
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a couple of days ago I said that I DID NOT want blood - but was fearful that the right wing was setting up a situation where it might happen and could be a reality. that is why we need to correct this economic imbalance right now before it gets bad. What I want is immaterial to the reality of the worsening situation and a very dangerous trend which threatens our entire way of life and nation.
 
haymarket said:
a couple of days ago I said that I DID NOT want blood - but was fearful that the right wing was setting up a situation where it might happen and could be a reality. that is why we need to correct this economic imbalance right now before it gets bad. What I want is immaterial to the reality of the worsening situation and a very dangerous trend which threatens our entire way of life and nation.
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what is really causing a bad situation to perhaps happen is so many people think the government exists to take care of them and other people have a duty to pay for that
 
TurtleDude said:
see, I noted in another post that the socialist left is going to spew "far-right" or "radical right".

I want to be not saddled with having to care for people like you
Click to expand...

Lmfao... Rather arrogant, don't ya think? Lol, you can trust me on this, if nothing else: Neither you, nor anyone else, is taking care of me. Besides, I don't take the measure of a man by his net worth. I count my blessings every day.

I rest my case on the right's understanding of the left. You pretty well prove my point. And once again, the numbers don't support your position on the Left Leaners. As a rule, they're pretty successful. And for all the bluster, this president has spoken of nothing but personal responsibility, from fatherhood to foreign policy; even admitting to his mistakes - oh my. Refreshing, no?

When I speak of the radical right, I also understand that the radical left is no better. They're the same animal and destructive. If you choose to live your life in the far right camp, that's your choice and has nothing to do with me. Paying for the benefits and opportunities this country affords through sound economic and social policies are worth the cost to me. A nation that turns her back on her own people ends up like Old Testament Israel every time, if a clearer illustration helps at all.
 
Kev316 said:
Lmfao... Rather arrogant, don't ya think? Lol, you can trust me on this, if nothing else: Neither you, nor anyone else, is taking care of me. Besides, I don't take the measure of a man by his net worth. I count my blessings every day.

I rest my case on the right's understanding of the left. You pretty well prove my point. And once again, the numbers don't support your position on the Left Leaners. As a rule, they're pretty successful. And for all the bluster, this president has spoken of nothing but personal responsibility, from fatherhood to foreign policy; even admitting to his mistakes - oh my. Refreshing, no?

When I speak of the radical right, I also understand that the radical left is no better. They're the same animal and destructive. If you choose to live your life in the far right camp, that's your choice and has nothing to do with me. Paying for the benefits and opportunities this country affords through sound economic and social policies are worth the cost to me. A nation that turns her back on her own people ends up like Old Testament Israel every time, if a clearer illustration helps at all.
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How do YOU define "far right"
 
Conservative said:
Do you think income redistribution is the answer? This country wasn't built on the principles of income redistribution which many on the left seem to support. How does income redistribution affect incentive and creativity? How much of your income do you give to others?

There are no Tax cuts here, the discussion is about extending the current RATES or RATE HIKES.

The top 1% of wage earners make 20% of all income and pay 38% of all taxes.
The top 5% of wage earners make 34.7% of all income and pay 58.7% of all taxes.
The top 10% of wage earners make 45.8% of all income and pay 69.9% of all taxes.

The bottom 50% make 12.8% of all income and pay 2.7% of all taxes.

Currently approximately 47% of all Americans pay nothing and actually get money back making their tax rate negative.
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And still econonomic inequality grows each year. Make no mistake the middle class in this country is a product of forced redistribution of wealth, hence the name New Deal. The briefest perusal of the conservative blogosphere reveals they've been bitching about this since it's passage. But all the "meme-tenders"
on the conservative side of forums skip the middle class in their diatribes, to avoid alienating middle class republicans and independants. The middle class is being liquidated, nothing.more, nothing less. And let's stop allowing the right to use the "productive" rich/parasitic poor meme unchallenged. The majority of the money being extracted in this country produces nothing of value, it's just manipulative speculation, computerized micro-transactions etc.. I have the links at home, so manufacture your responses accordingly, and prepare to have them deconstructed by persuasion techniques used. Oh and I live in southern California, where the "sleep tax" paid to landlords starts at about $1000/month. And save the"poor landlords" nonsense. If there was "anywhere" to sleep without paying said tax those arguments might have relevance. There is not so they do not.
 
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