CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

Harshaw said:

Then you continue to confirm exactly what I said. You're so confused, you don't even know what you're arguing against (or for) anymore.

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I suspect you have totally confused everyone including yourself. Which was evidently your goal from the start. You really do not want to discuss the actual subject of liberty and government and the bumper sticker quality of much discourse. What you want to do is play games and pretend you are a prosecutor and use your little games to avoid real discussion.

Are you ever going to answer the question?

Can you tell me how a society is supposedly founded on individual liberty but keeps some of its people in a condition of slavery which is a basic denial of any sort of liberty?

haymarket said:

I suspect you have totally confused everyone including yourself. Which was evidently your goal from the start. You really do not want to discuss the actual subject of liberty and government and the bumper sticker quality of much discourse. What you want to do is play games and pretend you are a prosecutor and use your little games to avoid real discussion.

Are you ever going to answer the question?

Can you tell me how a society is supposedly founded on individual liberty but keeps some of its people in a condition of slavery which is a basic denial of any sort of liberty?

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This is simply your distraction from the point, which it appears you now realize you've lost.

To use your own favored gambit, if you'd like to start a thread on this, please do so.

This is so very typical of your rather intellectually dishonest approach in discussing things - or rahter in avoiding really discussing things. For four pages now you have picked at me because I said this

If we once had such a society, that day is long dead and buried. But the modern libertarian romantic fiction of what we were is just that - a romantic fiction that might as well be King Arthur and his noble knights. We no longer live in that world with those realities. You either adapt to the changing world or you die and are eaten.

But never have you actually addressed the content of that post or said if you felt it was factually wrong or what was wrong with it. Instead you pretend that said something dreadfully wrong and play game after game trying to confuse the issue.

And this is not the first time you have done this. And I am sure it will not be the last. The fact that you cannot speak to the content of the post nor answer my direct question is all the evidence anyone needs to know that you have no intention of really debating the actual issue.

You are intellectually dishonest and are not worthy of any more of my time.

haymarket said:

This is so very typical of your rather intellectually dishonest approach in discussing things - or rahter in avoiding really discussing things. For four pages now you have picked at me because I said this

If we once had such a society, that day is long dead and buried. But the modern libertarian romantic fiction of what we were is just that - a romantic fiction that might as well be King Arthur and his noble knights. We no longer live in that world with those realities. You either adapt to the changing world or you die and are eaten.

But never have you actually addressed the content of that post or said if you felt it was factually wrong or what was wrong with it. Instead you pretend that said something dreadfully wrong and play game after game trying to confuse the issue.

And this is not the first time you have done this. And I am sure it will not be the last.

You are intellectually dishonest and are not worthy of any more of my time.

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I suspect the feeling is mutual. Actually Harshaw is pretty honest from what I have seen. He's also been here a long time and is pretty well respected.

TurtleDude said:

I suspect the feeling is mutual. Actually Harshaw is pretty honest from what I have seen. He's also been here a long time and is pretty well respected.

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and of course he agrees with you so that makes him a member of the club who knows the secret handshake.

haymarket said:

This is so very typical of your rather intellectually dishonest approach in discussing things - or rahter in avoiding really discussing things. For four pages now you have picked at me because I said this

If we once had such a society, that day is long dead and buried. But the modern libertarian romantic fiction of what we were is just that - a romantic fiction that might as well be King Arthur and his noble knights. We no longer live in that world with those realities. You either adapt to the changing world or you die and are eaten.

But never have you actually addressed the content of that post or said if you felt it was factually wrong or what was wrong with it. Instead you pretend that said something dreadfully wrong and play game after game trying to confuse the issue.

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No, I did. Your only answer was to keep denying you said it. And the confusion was was entirely you doing it to yourself. I very much doubt anyone else is confused.

And this is not the first time you have done this. And I am sure it will not be the last. The fact that you cannot speak to the content of the post nor answer my direct question is all the evidence anyone needs to know that you have no intention of really debating the actual issue.

You are intellectually dishonest and are not worthy of any more of my time.

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You keep saying that. Yet, here we are again.

haymarket said:

and of course he agrees with you so that makes him a member of the club who knows the secret handshake.

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I call them like I see em. there are liberals on this board who are honest and who I thank when they make good posts. then there are the energizer socialist looter bunnies whose main goal is to spend hours trying to convince people why its great to support the government's efforts to take more and more wealth from others. I see such people as nothing more than thieves--the difference being thieves can be prosecuted or shot. however, the mindest is the same

haymarket said:

Sorry Zimmer but with Turtle its all a matter of looking out for Number One, particularly the money of Number One.

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That is how it should be. Nobody else is going to look out for you or your family's concerns more than YOU.

Your life and your family is your responsibility... not mine... though I may elect to assist those in need.

When you satisfy those needs, then you can look to assisting others, and Americans do this like no other. Government is trying to destroy that... and we know why.

The rest of it - the ideology, the philosophy, the political underpinnings - its all just lipstick on a pig. An ideology of selfishness is nothing new - but if you look at the posts of Turtle it all comes down top a few basic things

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"the ideology, the philosophy, the political underpinnings"... What a sad and laughable load of dung.

Taking care of yourself and your family isn't selfish... it's personal responsibility. What is selfish, actually sick... is looking to the government to act as your thief.

1- I am rich and that makes me a superior individual

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Pure stupidity, but that's the value of free speech. It identifies the bright and the ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make a person superior... only wealthy. He has, or sould have the same rights under God, and the same numbers of votes... One.

2- the Republicans will help protect my riches

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No. They will protect my property and liberties. Nice for you to reveal Dems don't believe this.

3- the Democrats threaten my riches

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Dems threaten my freedom, liberty, and feel they are free to the fruit of my labor to spread that wealth around to their constituent groups to buy votes as they see fit. THEY THREATEN THE WEALTH OF ALL. Just look at what Freddie/Fannie and their forcing banks to make bad loans has done? Rocked the foundations of our economy with their idiocy.

4- the unwashed masses threaten my riches by voting Democratic

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Oh my... where did you learn this BS? "Unwashed masses"? ROTFLOL...

5- lets disenfranchise tens of millions of Dems so the Republicans can hold power forever and protect my riches

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Dems held Congress pretty much for 40-years, and regained power by running a bunch of supposed Blue Dawgs... then we got the Cult Election of 2008. Power will switch hands... that's the nature of the beast, but how about Dems running honestly about who they are and what they want to do?

They cannot run honestly, because they would get their asses kicked. People learned what the hollow vessel of Hope & Change meant... and look what happened 6 weeks ago?

all the rest is just extra layers designed to make this pure selfishness look like it has some substance other than greed.

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Liberty and private property... a judicial system that protects all the foundation of a sound society and economy. The Founders understood this well.

Democrats like you don't. You're ignorant fools that have been fed a load of BS... and you actually have taken it to heart and believe it!

I did at one time too. Then I grew up.

.

from Zimmer

Then I grew up.

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Sounds to me like you turned into a cynical, selfish and angry old man trying to isolate themselves from society and using government as the excuse for your personal animosity towards others. If you prefer "growing up" that is up to you. It is sad that you lost your idealism. Perhaps you will someday see the light.

from Harshaw

And the confusion was was entirely you doing it

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Look up OBFUSCATION in the dictionary and describes perfectly one of your favorite tactics. For five pages you pick and pick and use smoke and mirrors to discuss anything but the actual content of the post and its merits. Buyt this is some sort of trick you enjoy employing to avoid putting any skin in the game and only focusing on playing three card monte with others. Even now, after five pages, you still have no spoken to the actual merit of the statement which seemed to scandalize you so much. Just like the previous exchanges over evidence and sources, you are showing yourself more and more and proving that you are simply intellectually dishonest and not worth any more time.

Turtle
It is painfully obvious that you do not have even the basic concept of taxation, its legal foundations, its intent, its purposes and its value to a society like ours. Your purpose is to beat the drum in the parade for selfishness and greed. That and shameless self promotion of your own imagined status. Take away those things from you posts and you have very little to actually say.

your constant litany that I don't understand things because I dislike what catering to the lowest denominator politics has created is dishonest. You are the greedy one, I do not demand others pay for me or mine but you do.

TurtleDude said:

your constant litany that I don't understand things because I dislike what catering to the lowest denominator politics has created is dishonest. You are the greedy one, I do not demand others pay for me or mine but you do.

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But you do exactly that in most of the posts you make here. You are arguing for YOU to pay LESS tax and for OTHERS to pay MORE tax. You want others to pay for what you now have to pay for. It is YOU who are GREEDY by going on this crusade to have your taxes reduced while others pay more to make up for what is lost from you.

Your basic problem is with the American system of representative democracy and the right of the people to vote and express themselves. You want to put the brakes on the right of the people in order to line your own pockets with more wealth. You even went as far as to endorse the idea of stripping tens of millions of citizens of their right to vote in order to benefit yourself.

haymarket said:

But you do exactly that in most of the posts you make here. You are arguing for YOU to pay LESS tax and for OTHERS to pay MORE tax. You want others to pay for what you now have to pay for. It is YOU who are GREEDY by going on this crusade to have your taxes reduced while others pay more to make up for what is lost from you.

Your basic problem is with the American system of representative democracy and the right of the people to vote and express themselves. You want to put the brakes on the right of the people in order to line your own pockets with more wealth. You even went as far as to endorse the idea of stripping tens of millions of citizens of their right to vote in order to benefit yourself.

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exactly, why should I pay a higher rate than you when I already pay thousands more in taxes than you do and I GET ABSOLUTELY NO ADDITIONAL BENEFITS.

People like you are being subsidized by people like me and that causes you to think that paying for what you use is not a duty you need to assume. If everyone had to pay for what they use or as much as they possibly could, then we wouldn't have the bloated government we have now.

YES I WANT OTHERS TO PAY FOR WHAT THEY USE-and if that means I Pay less-good.

TurtleDude said:

exactly, why should I pay a higher rate than you when I already pay thousands more in taxes than you do and I GET ABSOLUTELY NO ADDITIONAL BENEFITS.

People like you are being subsidized by people like me and that causes you to think that paying for what you use is not a duty you need to assume. If everyone had to pay for what they use or as much as they possibly could, then we wouldn't have the bloated government we have now.

YES I WANT OTHERS TO PAY FOR WHAT THEY USE-and if that means I Pay less-good.

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Admitting the truth of your own greed is a step in the right direction. I can only hope that the Christmas season transforms the Scrooge in you to a more enlightened citizen concerned more with the rest of your fellow Americans.

haymarket said:

Admitting the truth of your own greed is a step in the right direction. I can only hope that the Christmas season transforms the Scrooge in you to a more enlightened citizen concerned more with the rest of your fellow Americans.

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More arrogance-its you who is greedy, not I. You want others to subsidize what you and your ilk use. I merely request that everyone pay their own bills.

TurtleDude said:

More arrogance-its you who is greedy, not I. You want others to subsidize what you and your ilk use. I merely request that everyone pay their own bills.

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But that is your problem in a nutshell. Being a citizen and consuming various government services IS NOT a bill for service nor is it buying things you purchase off the shelf. This has been explained to you over and over and over again but you have made a willful choice because of your own selfish ideology to reject the truth of the matter.

You do not seem to understand that I do not want one penny of your wealth, your gold, your treasure or anything else you may have. I do not want to enrich myself one penny beyond what I already have. My only purpose is for a functioning and healthy society for the American people. All of us, paying our taxes, is a part of that.

haymarket said:

But that is your problem in a nutshell. Being a citizen and consuming various government services IS NOT a bill for service nor is it buying things you purchase off the shelf. This has been explained to you over and over and over again but you have made a willful choice because of your own selfish ideology to reject the truth of the matter.

You do not seem to understand that I do not want one penny of your wealth, your gold, your treasure or anything else you may have. I do not want to enrich myself one penny beyond what I already have. My only purpose is for a functioning and healthy society for the American people. All of us, paying our taxes, is a part of that.

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your inability to understand that those of us being soaked by a system that allows deadbeats the same voting rights as contributors are tired of it. People like you hand a credit card to the irresponsible to buy their votes and when they complain they spent more than they can afford you demand people like me cover their reckless spending on the grounds that these people no longer have the means to afford the bills they racked up. That is the problem in the system. When you let people vote themselves the wealth of others, they have NO INCENTIVE to hold down spending. And as long as that system means the politicians you support can win elections, you will make up all sorts of excuses to justify it.

In the long run it is doomed. You and your party have created a nation where millions think that others have a duty to pay their bills and they will vote for any panderer who tells them they are correct. To claim that creates a healthy society is just another one of the bright and shining lies the left spews.

No one has a problem funding those who truly cannot take care of themselves, especially if their disability is not their fault. What we tire of is the system that encourages irresponsible spending to buy votes. And your constant litany that those of us who tire of paying these unneeded bills are "selfish" while your party and its massive buy the vote with others money is not is just a big bunch of bovine excrement.

You are selfish because you want others to pay for the election of your masters

Being soaked by the system!?!?!?!? Hardly. your rates today are at historic lows for the last sixty years. At the same time the wealthy have increased their share of both wealth and income. The rich are getting richer while the rest of us are losing. And you want even more.

As for the voting rights - they are what they are and you may not like it but that is America. The 24th Amendment took care of any financial connection between money and voting and that happened four decades ago. I would advise you finally accept it because your cause celebre is going nowhere. The idiots at the Cato Insititute and the Von Mises crowd may hold your hand in the darkness and whisper comforting thoughts into your ear but beyond that its a dead issue.

The rest of your screed is just your typical talking points that have been refuted time and time and time again.

I have no masters Dude. Not a one. I am a free citizen working hard to help build a just and sustainable society for all Americans.

Amazing how haymarket defines "greed" as "not wanting to pay others' bills."

haymarket said:

I have no masters Dude. Not a one. I am a free citizen working hard to help build a just and sustainable society for all Americans.

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So is TurtleDude.

Except he isn't telling people who don't agree with him that they can leave.

Harshaw said:

So is TurtleDude.

Except he isn't telling people who don't agree with him that they can leave.

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But they can leave, if they can just find a better country to live in that meets all their criteria...
the point is, if you are not happy here, and you are in a distinct minority, look elsewhere. Nobody has attached an anchor to your ass. You can still work the stock market if that is how you make money.
Hanging around here in the USA and whining about impending socialism isn't helping your cause.
OR better yet, run for office and try to change the system from within....surely you have the smarts for it...:2wave:

Harshaw said:

Amazing how haymarket defines "greed" as "not wanting to pay others' bills."

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Less amazing that you would define the civic obligation paying of ones taxes as paying of others bills. Funny thing is I can never remember getting any sort of bill from the government for any services that I have used. Reason: it does not work that way. The American society is not a Costco where you fill your cart with what you want and then pay the bill. So to equate it the way you and Turtle do is simply wrong and intellectually dishonest.

And as to the leaving issue: perhaps some of us simply believe more in freedom that others do. I would hate to think that anyone resides here in misery and anger when they could be exercising their free market options and finding something more to their liking elsewhere. Leaving one nation in the hopes of finding a better one is part of the very fabric that is America. We would not be here if it were not for that factor.

from Utah Bill on that very subject

Nobody has attached an anchor to your ass.

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I raise my glass to you sir. Well said.

haymarket said:

Less amazing that you would define the civic obligation paying of ones taxes as paying of others bills. Funny thing is I can never remember getting any sort of bill from the government for any services that I have used. Reason: it does not work that way. The American society is not a Costco where you fill your cart with what you want and then pay the bill. So to equate it the way you and Turtle do is simply wrong and intellectually dishonest.

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As usual, we have someone who can't handle the idea that saying one favors less taxes is not the same as saying one should not pay any taxes.

And for someone who keeps saying he's done with me because I'm "dishonest," this harangue has multiple levels of irony.

And as to the leaving issue: perhaps some of us simply believe more in freedom that others do. I would hate to think that anyone resides here in misery and anger when they could be exercising their free market options and finding something more to their liking elsewhere. Leaving one nation in the hopes of finding a better one is part of the very fabric that is America. We would not be here if it were not for that factor.

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This is too childish to bear any response other than this: :roll:

Harshaw said:

Amazing how haymarket defines "greed" as "not wanting to pay others' bills."

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He has the mindset that if you do well you have to reward others for your good luck because they exist. Its like the valedictorian being told he has to give half of his A grades to the slackers merely because they are in his class or spend half his time set aside for studying to tutor the retards

TurtleDude said:

I call them like I see em. there are liberals on this board who are honest and who I thank when they make good posts. then there are the energizer socialist looter bunnies whose main goal is to spend hours trying to convince people why its great to support the government's efforts to take more and more wealth from others. I see such people as nothing more than thieves--the difference being thieves can be prosecuted or shot. however, the mindest is the same

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If I may intrude into this flame war for a minute, the trouble with your "analysis" (or rationalization scenario), is that you still don't get it that it is the rich business owners who are the thieves, who are stealing the wealth created by the workers (who thereby are entitled to it, or at least a much larger share than what they're getting). Being very moral minded myself, and getting into the upper age brackets (I'm 65), I'm compelled to start thinking about my death and possible afterlife condition. If that has anything to do with how I've behaved morally, throughout my life, (and most people throughout the world think it does), I think I'm in good shape. I've worked hard for 48 years, paid my taxes, served in the US military. and feed stray cats outside my house (for examples). When I was an employer, I shared my wealth with the people who helped make it, and paid my workers the equivalent of @ $150/hour (in sales commissions) which was 38 times the minimum wage back then (the 80s).
On the other hand, if I were a rich person consumed with greed and pressing for tax cuts to the rich, and willing to "steal" $ 890 Billion from the American people, at a time when the US infrastructure is crumbling, the Mexican border is crying for more $ecurity, baby boomers are entering the Social Security/Medicare group, etc. etc., I would be aging toward death very worried, about what may lie ahead. Those who have no soul, and don't think they do, are perhaps not worried. Could be the biggest mistake they ever made.

Protectionist said:

If I may intrude into this flame war for a minute, the trouble with your "analysis" (or rationalization scenario), is that you still don't det it that it is the rich business owners who are the thieves, who are stealing the wealth created by the workers (who thereby are entitled to it, or at least a much larger share than what they're getting). Being very moral minded myself, and getting into the upper age brackets (I'm 65), I'm compelled to start thinking about my death and possible afterlife condition. If that has anything to do wih how I've behaved morally, throughout my life, I think I'm in good shape. I've worked hard for 48 years, paid my taxes, served in the US military. and feed stray cats outside my house (for examples). When I was an employer, I shared my wealth with the people who helped make and paid my workers the equivalent of @ $150/hour (in sales commissions) which was 38 times the minimum wage back then (the 80s).
On the other hand, if I were a rich person consumed with greed and pressing for tax cuts to the rich, and willing to "steal" $ 890 Billion from the American people, at a time when the US infrastructure is crumbling, the Mexican border is crying for more $ecurity, baby boomers are entering the Social Security/Medicare group, etc. etc., I would be aging toward death very worried, about what may lie ahead. Those who have no soul, and don't think they do are perhaps not worried. Could be the biggest mistake they ever made.

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this idiotic drivel that business owners are thieves consigns your posts to the nutcase fringe list. feeding stray cats results in more stray cats meaning more dead songbirds.