• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

College education is more of a necessity, though - than a privelege. A highschool diploma use to mean something but not highschool mostly readies you for college - NOT the real world with job-skills.

Education should be made available to all, even the ancient Greeks valued that - but graduation and the rounded degree should only be available to those who'v earned it.
I've heard quite a few students in my classes that are satisfied earning a C in their classes because they "can pass with that!" That doesn't mean they don't deserve the chance to GET a solid and well rounded education: but should they be given a diploma with crap-half effort? No.

Millions of people function just fine without a college education. You're applying YOUR life's wants and needs to others.

And it IS available to all people, at least those willing to work for it. There are winners, losers, and those in between. That's the way it should be, and it's he ONLY way a degree is worth anything anyway.

If everyone was handed a degree, it wouldn't be worth a thing.

Look at high school diplomas. I could train a monkey to get a high school diploma these days. Graduating from high school was an accomplishment in 1950. Now it's a certificate of participation.
 
Last edited:
Millions of people function just fine without a college education. You're applying YOUR life's wants and needs to others.

And it IS available to all people, at least those willing to work for it. There are winners, losers, and those in between. That's the way it should be, and it's he ONLY way a degree is worth anything anyway.

If everyone was handed a degree, it wouldn't be worth a thing.

Look at high school diplomas. I could train a monkey to get a high school diploma these days. Graduating from high school was an accomplishment in 1950. Now it's a certificate of participation.

So does that mean that - if someone changes their mind in life - they shouldn't be allowed to come back to college? If someone WANTS to go to college and they can't afford it then they should just be ok with their high-school diploma? Sounds great, sure - unless you consider that the average highschool graduate in this day and age is having a horrible time securing reasonable employment . . . thus leading to the overall inability to achieve that illusive 'American Dream' which this entire thread is about.

I think you're undervaluing what a reasonable education can do for someone - even if they don't graduate.

Right now enrollment in most schools is UP from the bracket of people who are returning or who, otherwise, are nontraditional students because *not* having a college degree of some type is BAD for them - not good. They might have been able to pull things off for a while - but when the economy went in the ****ter that paycheck to paycheck living was no longer working out.

Or have you not been paying attention to the struggles of the working force in the last several years?
 
Last edited:
So does that mean that - if someone changes their mind in life - they shouldn't be allowed to come back to college? If someone WANTS to go to college and they can't afford it then they should just be ok with their high-school diploma? Sounds great, sure - unless you consider that the average highschool graduate in this day and age is having a horrible time securing reasonable employment . . . thus leading to the overall inability to achieve that illusive 'American Dream' which this entire thread is about.

I think you're undervaluing what a reasonable education can do for someone - even if they don't graduate.

Right now enrollment in most schools is UP from the bracket of people who are returning or who, otherwise, are nontraditional students because *not* having a college degree of some type is BAD for them - not good. They might have been able to pull things off for a while - but when the economy went in the ****ter that paycheck to paycheck living was no longer working out.

Or have you not been paying attention to the struggles of the working force in the last several years?

You could not be more poor than I was when I went to college. Not possible. I worked in a grocery store and ate beans and rice through college. I paid my own way.

And you know what? It really wasn't that bad because I wanted to do it. It paid off not only in the degree, but every time I need to knuckle down to accomplish something in life.

In fact, though I'm someone of measurable means now, I am going to make my kids pay for their college, too. It was perhaps the most character-building experience of my life, and it has paid off a million-fold.

You start letting just anyone who "kinda" wants to go to college in, and it will water down the system with people that simply have no serious business being there.
 
You could not be more poor than I was when I went to college. Not possible. I worked in a grocery store and ate beans and rice through college. I paid my own way.

And you know what? It really wasn't that bad because I wanted to do it. It paid off not only in the degree, but every time I need to knuckle down to accomplish something in life.

In fact, though I'm someone of measurable means now, I am going to make my kids pay for their college, too. It was perhaps the most character-building experience of my life, and it has paid off a million-fold.

You start letting just anyone who "kinda" wants to go to college in, and it will water down the system with people that simply have no serious business being there.

That's awesome. Obviously it meant a lot to you and was very important - and having been there and done that surely you see what I was referring to when I said that I believe a C average shouldn't net one a degree - for many it's just party-central. We all know this.
But everyone should be given a chance to prove they can possibly handle it.

No one's saying that such committment to your own education is wrong or a bad example. But, looking back, if you had some help wouldn't it have been nice? You worked your ass off - but I'm sure the occasional support would have been happily accepted by you.

Help should be given to thsoe who've proven they're responsible enough to handle it and can stick with it.
And, surely, that's how things *do go* - if a student is in with a FAFSA and they fail a course - they can lose their support.

the cost of college, though, like everything else, has gone up considerably - for me to go to my school, not even full time, it costs me $5,000 out of pocket and the rest is covered by my husband's GI Bill - which he shed blood for.

But someone being POOR shouldn't be a reason for them NOT to be given a solid education - are we wanting to improve our youth or not? Being IN college is more than just *covering the cost* - there's a considerable amount on the part of the student to make it through. Focusing more on the cost portion is undercutting all the other work that goes into it.

IF someone doesn't really want to stick with the college program for 4 or 6 years - then they won't last that 4 or 6 years. Justl ike joining the military - you can sign up, doesn't mean you'll make it through boot camp.

I have 4 kids - I'm maxed out with home, family and 4 classes and I'm pulling A's. . . I have it quite decent (financially) because my husband works hard and sacrificed a lot to get where he is.

But for anyone to tell a poor but determined student that "you MUST pay your own damned way in" is just anti-American, in my opinion. . . and ensuring them that they won't EVER be able to achieve that "American Dream" at all.

You're assuming that everyone lives in an area brimming with job opportunities - but I'm not. I'm not even attending a solid 4-year university. Merely a 2-year leg for right now. In a small town where every possible job is TAKEN. I'm sure - right now - there are quite a few deserving teens who aren't attending college because they can't manage transportation and other things. . . which is a shame.

I'd like to improve our country - not make it so impossible to maintain that it just falls apart.
 
Last edited:
So I can't have a Thanksgiving break or post stuff on my phone? Geez. Anyways I don't see the dream as most see (or are told what the dream is supposed to be). My biggest dream is to own a ****load of stocks so I can make money just by betting on the right horses. I give it another 5 years until I do that, once I do I've met my dream. Also how did this thread turn into yet another discussion of why people shouldn't be on welfare like somebody actually associates that with the American dream?
Sounds like the kids my wife teaches, they don't need to study because they will be hired by their daddy in his shop, but the shop closed, or the kid who thinks he has the inside track to the NBA.
I hope you have a backup plan....Wall Street is not a level playing field. I know full time stock brokers who are now old enough to retire, but can't, as they lost too much money in the market.
 
No one paid for my college. I worked nights in a grocery store to do that myself. Why should I pay for theirs if they're too lazy to do less than glamorous work?

Education is the one thing worthy of going into debt for...not that I had to.
My Uncle Sam paid for my college classes.
 
That's awesome. Obviously it meant a lot to you and was very important - and having been there and done that surely you see what I was referring to when I said that I believe a C average shouldn't net one a degree - for many it's just party-central. We all know this.
But everyone should be given a chance to prove they can possibly handle it.

No one's saying that such committment to your own education is wrong or a bad example. But, looking back, if you had some help wouldn't it have been nice? You worked your ass off - but I'm sure the occasional support would have been happily accepted by you.

Help should be given to thsoe who've proven they're responsible enough to handle it and can stick with it.
And, surely, that's how things *do go* - if a student is in with a FAFSA and they fail a course - they can lose their support.

the cost of college, though, like everything else, has gone up considerably - for me to go to my school, not even full time, it costs me $5,000 out of pocket and the rest is covered by my husband's GI Bill - which he shed blood for.

IF someone doesn't really want to stick wit hthe college program for 4 or 6 years - then they won't last that 4 or 6 years.

Justl ike joining the military - you can sign up, doesn't mean you'll make it through boot camp.

The problem is, what your proposing will be the first step of opening Pandora's Box.

Soon, the process will get watered down - like in high school - to the point that everyone graduates. Then, that degree will be worth nothing, and the employment opportunities it's supposed to create will be gone.

It should remain a relatively exclusive accomplishment. And the truest statement there is remains, "the world needs ditch diggers, too."

Unions have caused this mentality. Getting paid obnoxious sums of money for screwing in a bolt in an assembly line, and being basically unfirable for years for any reason, has built an enormous sense of entitlement.

Now that those jobs are gone, those folks aren't willing to work for 10 bucks an hour, even though they graduated high school by the skin of their teeth.
 
Erod .... I do think we part on philosophy even though our way through college was very similar. My father was a factory worker and my mother a stay at home mom. I was the oldest of four kids with the youngest being a sister who was born when I was 16. We had three small bedrooms and when she turned one she got her room and the three boys shared one room. When I graduated from high school I asked my father if he could help pay for it. He walked me back to the bedroom pointed to it and said I could sleep there as long as i wanted to and eat here every day. The rest was on me. When my regular summer job ended, he gave me a very good peice of advice on how to land a job and it worked perfectly. I held that job all the way through four years of college working as a night auditor in a hotel and working extra shifts as I could get them. I went to a local community college because it was cheap at $6 per credit hour and I stayed to get the maximum 60 credits that would transfer to a local university that I could drive to each day. I went through junk cars like toilet paper. Like you all I did was two things - work and go to school.Oh - and I slept an average of four hours a day for four years and I am one of those who needs eight hours sleep. In four years I never attended one athletic event or one party. I brown bagged a lunch each day that my mom made as she made for all the family members. I was on the debate team for two years and loved that more than any other part of my college experience. It enabled me to tour lots of this great country and I even flew on a place for the first time when I was 18. I will never forget that.

The memories of those days are all good and I treasure them.

But I do not think our road is for everyone to travel down. Like you I think the experience made me tough and disciplined and prepared me for the rest of my life. Like you I think it has paid off a million fold. I owe my father a great deal for what he did for me and probably more for what he did not do for me and forced me to do for myself. Later I became a long distance marathon runner and found it easy because of the discipline I learned in college and from my father. And it has stayed with me for the last four decades.

But I do not think such a path is for everyone. I do not think everyone can be successful at it. Everybody is not the same - everybody is not equal - everyone does not have the same strengths. Some people need more help. Some people need rest breaks. Some people need what you and I did not need because we did not have that luxury.

I do not think that makes folks like you and I better or superior than anybody else. It is simply the path we took because it was the only one open to us which got us to the destination where we wanted to go. It is good that we live in a society where there are many paths open to people.
 
The problem is, what your proposing will be the first step of opening Pandora's Box.

Soon, the process will get watered down - like in high school - to the point that everyone graduates. Then, that degree will be worth nothing, and the employment opportunities it's supposed to create will be gone.

It should remain a relatively exclusive accomplishment. And the truest statement there is remains, "the world needs ditch diggers, too."

Unions have caused this mentality. Getting paid obnoxious sums of money for screwing in a bolt in an assembly line, and being basically unfirable for years for any reason, has built an enormous sense of entitlement.

Now that those jobs are gone, those folks aren't willing to work for 10 bucks an hour, even though they graduated high school by the skin of their teeth.

And so you don't think it's already watered-down, now?
Education isnt' a cure-all but that doesn't mean anyone should be DENIED it for any reason.
 
You could not be more poor than I was when I went to college. Not possible. I worked in a grocery store and ate beans and rice through college. I paid my own way.

And you know what? It really wasn't that bad because I wanted to do it. It paid off not only in the degree, but every time I need to knuckle down to accomplish something in life.

In fact, though I'm someone of measurable means now, I am going to make my kids pay for their college, too. It was perhaps the most character-building experience of my life, and it has paid off a million-fold.

You start letting just anyone who "kinda" wants to go to college in, and it will water down the system with people that simply have no serious business being there.

Excellent point. Coasting thru life works for some, tho. I know a few people who manage on just good looks. I got shorted in that department.:lol:
We paid our kids college expenses, but let them know that it might be the only inheritance they get, so they should take advantage of the offer. They remember well mom and dad taking night classes to get ahead, and they knew that college was in thier future before they knew what college means.
When I was taking night classes, nearly all of us were adults going to college for the first time, or returning after dropping out years back. It is good that these kinds of programs are available. Taxpayers pay for much of it, tho. Don't doubt that for a minute.
 
Erod .... I do think we part on philosophy even though our way through college was very similar. My father was a factory worker and my mother a stay at home mom. I was the oldest of four kids with the youngest being a sister who was born when I was 16. We had three small bedrooms and when she turned one she got her room and the three boys shared one room. When I graduated from high school I asked my father if he could help pay for it. He walked me back to the bedroom pointed to it and said I could sleep there as long as i wanted to and eat here every day. The rest was on me. When my regular summer job ended, he gave me a very good peice of advice on how to land a job and it worked perfectly. I held that job all the way through four years of college working as a night auditor in a hotel and working extra shifts as I could get them. I went to a local community college because it was cheap at $6 per credit hour and I stayed to get the maximum 60 credits that would transfer to a local university that I could drive to each day. I went through junk cars like toilet paper. Like you all I did was two things - work and go to school.Oh - and I slept an average of four hours a day for four years and I am one of those who needs eight hours sleep. In four years I never attended one athletic event or one party. I brown bagged a lunch each day that my mom made as she made for all the family members. I was on the debate team for two years and loved that more than any other part of my college experience. It enabled me to tour lots of this great country and I even flew on a place for the first time when I was 18. I will never forget that.

The memories of those days are all good and I treasure them.

But I do not think our road is for everyone to travel down. Like you I think the experience made me tough and disciplined and prepared me for the rest of my life. Like you I think it has paid off a million fold. I owe my father a great deal for what he did for me and probably more for what he did not do for me and forced me to do for myself. Later I became a long distance marathon runner and found it easy because of the discipline I learned in college and from my father. And it has stayed with me for the last four decades.

But I do not think such a path is for everyone. I do not think everyone can be successful at it. Everybody is not the same - everybody is not equal - everyone does not have the same strengths. Some people need more help. Some people need rest breaks. Some people need what you and I did not need because we did not have that luxury.

I do not think that makes folks like you and I better or superior than anybody else. It is simply the path we took because it was the only one open to us which got us to the destination where we wanted to go. It is good that we live in a society where there are many paths open to people.

At 15 I asked my dad about college, he said talk to your mother. She wanted room and board, and she wanted a lot considering the quality of the food. I am so grateful for the GI Bill....:peace
 
from Utah Bill

We paid our kids college expenses, but let them know that it might be the only inheritance they get, so they should take advantage of the offer.

We did the same with our two. Although I told them that they could go to any college within driving distance and we would pay the tuition and books and could live at home as long as they wanted to. We passed on the older family cars to them as their first car. We did tell that them that if they wanted to live away from home and go away to college, the board cost would be on them. Neither did so and both finished school without owing one penny to anybody for anything.

She wanted room and board, and she wanted a lot considering the quality of the food. I am so grateful for the GI Bill..

So how long did you spend in the service? How did that food compare to your mothers?
 
And so you don't think it's already watered-down, now?
Education isnt' a cure-all but that doesn't mean anyone should be DENIED it for any reason.

Absolutely it is, I don't want it to be moreso. Like I said...Pandora's Box.

I don't see where it is denied to anyone. It's there for the taking, if they really want it.
 
from Utah Bill



We did the same with our two. Although I told them that they could go to any college within driving distance and we would pay the tuition and books and could live at home as long as they wanted to. We passed on the older family cars to them as their first car. We did tell that them that if they wanted to live away from home and go away to college, the board cost would be on them. Neither did so and both finished school without owing one penny to anybody for anything.



So how long did you spend in the service? How did that food compare to your mothers?

Our kids have expressed gratitude for not having college debt. Many of their friends have those huge loans.
They didn't get their own cars til they were juniors, in college. And they had no say in the choice of cars. If I am going to maintain them, I get to choose them. Later they got $5K graduation gifts to help them with their newer cars. Our plan was to educate them to the point that they won't come back and live with us as adults, with spouses, and kids. So far, the plan has worked.:)
I did 12.5 years active and 10 years reserves. I get about $1250 per month Navy retirement since I turned 60..

Navy chow is far superior to my mother's cooking. There were no fatties in our family...:(
 
Absolutely it is, I don't want it to be moreso. Like I said...Pandora's Box.

I don't see where it is denied to anyone. It's there for the taking, if they really want it.

Does anybody really think that we will ever have a really good education system? Think about it, an EDUCATED and INFORMED electorate? What "elected" position govt worker wants that?
 
Erod .... I do think we part on philosophy even though our way through college was very similar. My father was a factory worker and my mother a stay at home mom. I was the oldest of four kids with the youngest being a sister who was born when I was 16. We had three small bedrooms and when she turned one she got her room and the three boys shared one room. When I graduated from high school I asked my father if he could help pay for it. He walked me back to the bedroom pointed to it and said I could sleep there as long as i wanted to and eat here every day. The rest was on me. When my regular summer job ended, he gave me a very good peice of advice on how to land a job and it worked perfectly. I held that job all the way through four years of college working as a night auditor in a hotel and working extra shifts as I could get them. I went to a local community college because it was cheap at $6 per credit hour and I stayed to get the maximum 60 credits that would transfer to a local university that I could drive to each day. I went through junk cars like toilet paper. Like you all I did was two things - work and go to school.Oh - and I slept an average of four hours a day for four years and I am one of those who needs eight hours sleep. In four years I never attended one athletic event or one party. I brown bagged a lunch each day that my mom made as she made for all the family members. I was on the debate team for two years and loved that more than any other part of my college experience. It enabled me to tour lots of this great country and I even flew on a place for the first time when I was 18. I will never forget that.

The memories of those days are all good and I treasure them.

But I do not think our road is for everyone to travel down. Like you I think the experience made me tough and disciplined and prepared me for the rest of my life. Like you I think it has paid off a million fold. I owe my father a great deal for what he did for me and probably more for what he did not do for me and forced me to do for myself. Later I became a long distance marathon runner and found it easy because of the discipline I learned in college and from my father. And it has stayed with me for the last four decades.

But I do not think such a path is for everyone. I do not think everyone can be successful at it. Everybody is not the same - everybody is not equal - everyone does not have the same strengths. Some people need more help. Some people need rest breaks. Some people need what you and I did not need because we did not have that luxury.

I do not think that makes folks like you and I better or superior than anybody else. It is simply the path we took because it was the only one open to us which got us to the destination where we wanted to go. It is good that we live in a society where there are many paths open to people.

That's such an awesome story, and it surprises me how liberal you are. Don't take that the wrong way, just an observation.

The only things worth doing have a story much like yours. And the things we all treasure are rarely the things that came easiest to us. I don't even know where my high school diploma is, but I know where my college diploma is, and not so much for the degree it represents, but because how my stoic father looked upon me with tears running down his face at my graduation. I didn't even want to go to my graduation (it took me six years to graduate because of the money issues), but I'm awfully glad I did. My very cheap dad insisted on buying me a school ring, though I didn't want one. It's now one of my most cherished possessions even though I long ago stopped wearing it.

That is what college should be about. Looking at a mountain of adversity ahead of you, and choosing that path anyway.

Getting prodded or coddled into going, especially on the taxpayers' dime, is NOT what college is about.
 
Last edited:
Does anybody really think that we will ever have a really good education system? Think about it, an EDUCATED and INFORMED electorate? What "elected" position govt worker wants that?

So true. (Insert Obama/Bush joke here)

Education inertia comes from the home, and we all know what that situation looks like today in America.
 
from UtahBill

Does anybody really think that we will ever have a really good education system? Think about it, an EDUCATED and INFORMED electorate? What "elected" position govt worker wants that?

First, its neat to read the personal stories of others and compare them to your own experience. Thanks for sharing that.

As far as your latest post, we do not have an educational system in the USA - we have thousands and thousands of them. Each are unique and different. And within those thousands of systems we have different schools with their own systems and run differently than the school next door. And within the same school you have two teachers who team the same subject who may not even cover the same material so a child taking Government may get a completely different course than the kid right next door in the same school. Many of them are doing a wonderful job at educating kids. I dare say that even the worst are still turning out some educated kids who end up successful.

Lets get an education system in this country and then we can evaluate it and discuss it. Until that time, it is impossible.
 
So true. (Insert Obama/Bush joke here)

Education inertia comes from the home, and we all know what that situation looks like today in America.

I couldn't agree with this statement more. Until our society values intelligence again as opposed to being rich or famous, we will continue to underperform.
 
from Erod

And the things we all treasure are rarely the things that came easiest to us. I don't even know where my high school diploma is, but I know where my college diploma is, and not so much for the degree it represents, but because how my stoic father looked upon me with tears running down his face at my graduation. I didn't even want to go to my graduation (it took me six years to graduate because of the money issues), but I'm awfully glad I did. My very cheap dad insisted on buying me a school ring, though I didn't want one. It's now one of my most cherished possessions even though I long ago stopped wearing it.

That is what college should be about. Looking at a mountain of adversity ahead of you, and choosing that path anyway.

That is a great story - thanks for sharing it. Its amazing how similar our lives were. But I did not go to my graduation for college since I knew I was going on to a Masters and it did not mean that much to me. No ring either.... but I did get a different kind of ring that same summer and treasure that.

btw - I do not consider myself liberal. I eschew labels. I do admit that many of my views are on the left side of what others would call a progressive. But I also take some conservative positions on some issues. I really do not like the idea that we are like butterflies with pins in us and there is some label underneath identifying us to the world. But thats just me.
 
I couldn't agree with this statement more. Until our society values intelligence again as opposed to being rich or famous, we will continue to underperform.

You know how Jay Leno does that thing where he asks people on the streets to identify people in pictures, and they can Jessica Simpson, but not Joe Biden? While funny, it also makes my stomach sink.

I think the biggest issue is the lack of parenting within the home. My dad scared the crap out of us at home about our grades. You brought home a C, especially in something that required basic study discipline like history or health, and your next six weeks were going to be pure hell.

Nowdays, it seems most parents don't even care enough to look at a report card, and if their kid gets held back, they picket the school.
 
I couldn't agree with this statement more. Until our society values intelligence again as opposed to being rich or famous, we will continue to underperform.
Value intellect? Are you dating the tooth fairy?
Next you will be telling us that the reality shows are real life...:2razz:
 
Value intellect? Are you dating the tooth fairy?
Next you will be telling us that the reality shows are real life...:2razz:

I have found that in the majority of cases (certainly with exceptions) being intelligent goes a long way in helping you get "rich." Many "rich" people will tell you that education is one of the most important things.
 
Value intellect? Are you dating the tooth fairy?
Next you will be telling us that the reality shows are real life...:2razz:

You mean, The Bachelorette isn't about true love?

I'm going to need some time to digest this.
 
from UtahBill



First, its neat to read the personal stories of others and compare them to your own experience. Thanks for sharing that.

As far as your latest post, we do not have an educational system in the USA - we have thousands and thousands of them. Each are unique and different. And within those thousands of systems we have different schools with their own systems and run differently than the school next door. And within the same school you have two teachers who team the same subject who may not even cover the same material so a child taking Government may get a completely different course than the kid right next door in the same school. Many of them are doing a wonderful job at educating kids. I dare say that even the worst are still turning out some educated kids who end up successful.

Lets get an education system in this country and then we can evaluate it and discuss it. Until that time, it is impossible.
I have no problem with different paths, as long as the goals are clear and standards are met. We lived for a few years in a small town in Idaho, with mostly farmers on the school board, and an exjock as superintendent. Standards were low in academics, but high in sports...
Parental expectations, IMO, is the primary issue that frustrates good teachers. When the student CAN, but won't, and parents won't get involved, what can you do?
 
Back
Top Bottom