Suze Orman: 'The American Dream' Is Dead

haymarket said:

Perhaps you missed the entire point - The reality of The American Dream is not measured by if one person, or two persons or a small number of persons can still attain it. It is measured by it it is attainable by the masses of our society. Without reading the book since it is not yet available, I take it that is the message of the author.

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I know the American dream does not include subprime mortgages, 2+ years of unemployment benefits, Robin Hood healthcare, and holding your hand out for more gimmes from the government.

I know of nobody who defines it this way.

haymarket said:

I know of nobody who defines it this way.

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The "American Dream" is a house with a white picket fence and a two-car garage, two kids, and a quiet little neighborhood. It's just an age-old, Norman Rockwell-like expression. It's still there to be had.

Now we have massive divorce rates, complete absentee parenting, women having four kids with four different dudes, Bob and Jim trying to get hitched at First Baptist United and adopt little Billy, and all hopefully in the haze of legalized drugs.

Yep, the American Dream is different for different people.

JohnWOlin said:

I said probably. I don't know what you do but I would bet good money I do. I typically work 10-12 hour days 7 days a week working with steel and automotive preassembly, come home work on various design projects on the side, study Japanese and design for a degree, and I do tobacco work when in season (right now we are stripping) and when it snows I shovel sidewalks. What do you do?

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I work with a political consulting firm and just got through running a winning campaign. During the campaign my hours are insane as well. Outside of that I used to give (gave it up though) baseball lessons on the side just because I loved doing it. I also am the co-owner (don't operate them though) in two businesses. I am lucky enough to be able to have taken all of November off (after the election) as well as December and just relax. In January I am starting another project with the consulting firm so my hours will pick back up.

Also I could honestly give a **** about the pre-defined vision of American dream. The American dream to me is to make money and not have to work your dick in the ground to get to that point. The American dream is to work your dick into the ground until you don't have to work your dick into the ground and make more doing less.

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Sounds as if you are well on your way to that dream after you finish your degree etc... so why is it dead?

Erod said:

The "American Dream" is a house with a white picket fence and a two-car garage, two kids, and a quiet little neighborhood. It's just an age-old, Norman Rockwell-like expression. It's still there to be had.

Now we have massive divorce rates, complete absentee parenting, women having four kids with four different dudes, Bob and Jim trying to get hitched at First Baptist United and adopt little Billy, and all hopefully in the haze of legalized drugs.

Yep, the American Dream is different for different people.

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True enough...but going back to the OP and Suze's comments (I actually like her BTW...she's a good speaker and very personable 'in person') I still believe the basics are VERY attainable.

Look...its just a matter of application and hard work. it doesnt happen overnight, but then...it never has. I guarantee you...we can take ANYONE with basic skills and an average IQ (and I mean ANYONE regardless of their current circumstances) and if they are willing to put in the work create for them a plan that in 4-5 years has them in a career that they like with benefits, retirment, and earning a livable wage.

Erod said:

There are no votes in such logic. I personally feel that conservatives are trying to do what is truly best for America's poor, but they don't want to hear about "trade schools" and "personal responsibility". Those terms are too hard; it's much easier to just vote the other way and collect the check.

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Sane conservatives, yes, but we have a lot of extreme right that will agree with your post in principle, but balk at paying taxes to accomplish the training required.

haymarket said:

Her upcoming book sounds like a very interesting read. I will put it on my list and hope to learn from it.

I suspect she has hit a nerve in the conservative side of American political thought. She is saying that the America we have today is not the America that used to be and the people paying the highest price for it are the middle class. That message is anathema to the elites who make up the leadership of the Republican party and to libertarian thought molders from places like CATO. If it is true, it means we have been screwing up royally over the last thirty years. And who has gained in both wealth and any other measurement of monetary success during that time when the middle class is losing? Surprise, surprise its the same people who tend to vote Republican and support policies which benefit the upper income class.

This sounds like one terrific book.

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My neighbor, a very religious and great lady, told me that our generation is the first one in modern history to NOT have it better off than our parents. Yes, we might have more technology, but as far as jobs, debt, education, etc, my parents generation had it way better than we do.

dontworrybehappy said:

My neighbor, a very religious and great lady, told me that our generation is the first one in modern history to NOT have it better off than our parents. Yes, we might have more technology, but as far as jobs, debt, education, etc, my parents generation had it way better than we do.

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how old are you, if i might ask?

dontworrybehappy said:

My neighbor, a very religious and great lady, told me that our generation is the first one in modern history to NOT have it better off than our parents. Yes, we might have more technology, but as far as jobs, debt, education, etc, my parents generation had it way better than we do.

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What generation are you a member of?

dontworrybehappy said:

My neighbor, a very religious and great lady, told me that our generation is the first one in modern history to NOT have it better off than our parents. Yes, we might have more technology, but as far as jobs, debt, education, etc, my parents generation had it way better than we do.

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I dont think it is a question of whether or not our children have it better...believe me...mine do...but that there are more and more people who through whatever reasons dont and wont. And if that is going to change people need to consider WHY and address that.

Edit: i before e...i before e...

I am at the forefront of the baby boomers, and I am doing well, but doing well required a continued concious effort for 30 years.
Too many of us want NOW everything our parents took 20 or 30 years to accumulate, and truth be known, much of what we accumulate in our youth gets put out at yard sales when we get to retirement age.
Simplicity is the way to go, if we can just get past the idea that we must have everything that our neighbors have.

VanceMack said:

I dont think it is a question of whether or not our children have it better...believe me...mine do...but that there are more and more people who through whatever reasons dont and wont. And if that is going to change people need to consider WHY and address that.

Edit: i before e...i before e...

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Our children have it better, but hardly any of it was just given to them.
If someone, like one of my siblings, wants to live on the edge of poverty without complaining about it, more power to them for keeping their lives simple. But he never married, never had kids, so for him, simplicity wasn't too hard to accomplish.

UtahBill said:

Our children have it better, but hardly any of it was just given to them.
If someone, like one of my siblings, wants to live on the edge of poverty without complaining about it, more power to them for keeping their lives simple. But he never married, never had kids, so for him, simplicity wasn't too hard to accomplish.

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Of course not. I attended a seminar featuring Connie Podesta and she pointed out that one of the problems with todays generations is that parents have created their number one goal as providing for their childrens happiness...not teaching them the value of honor, character, integrity, and especially hard work. With those things come happiness.

I have one time made the mistake of providing cash for a family member struggling. Never again. I will provide love, support, the shirt of my back, budget help, even help with bills, provided that they be active participants. We have taken people into our home but had the expectation that they become part of the family...recieving benefits but also working for those benefits.

Like you...I didnt walk into blessed security. I worked my ass off for 30 years (and still do). I cant think of a better legacy to pass on to my children. Love...time...and hard work.

VanceMack said:

Of course not. I attended a seminar featuring Connie Podesta and she pointed out that one of the problems with todays generations is that parents have created their number one goal as providing for their childrens happiness...not teaching them the value of honor, character, integrity, and especially hard work. With those things come happiness.

I have one time made the mistake of providing cash for a family member struggling. Never again. I will provide love, support, the shirt of my back, budget help, even help with bills, provided that they be active participants. We have taken people into our home but had the expectation that they become part of the family...recieving benefits but also working for those benefits.

Like you...I didnt walk into blessed security. I worked my ass off for 30 years (and still do). I cant think of a better legacy to pass on to my children. Love...time...and hard work.

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Being too generous causes at least 2 things bad, an expectation that it will always be there, and a sense of entitlement.
We told our kids to take advantage of our offer to pay their college expenses, because it may be the only inheritance they get.
And speaking of inheritance, we believe in generation skipping, the grandkids get most of it as long as they live up to our expectations, as most of what we give them will be while they are in school learning to become self sufficient...

VanceMack said:

Bah...the American Dream is not 'dead'. It may be out of reach to the lazy and unprepared...but it is definitely not dead. This economy like any other time in history requires that people pay attention to markets and trends. As cool as that degree in PoliSci sounds, unless you plan on being a teacher it wont be worth a dime. But IF you are planning a career in teaching...sure...that option is as available as always. You want a surefire career? Computer design (and not the 2 year university "we guarantee you pass" programs). Healthcare...there are hundreds of fields in the health and human services fields. Management degrees are great as long as you recognize that they mean you will usually start managing a restaraunt or other small business. Looking into the future? Learn to love Geoplotting and design. Project management is as solid a field as ever.

Hopefully the industrial jobs are brought back to America. We NEED them. Hopefully the government ends the inane bailout process and allows the housing market to correct itself. But working til you are 65 and then retiring (though lets be honest...we as a people are vibrant these days well into our 70's...the retirement age SHOULD shange with the times) is still emminently doable. Buying a home is still very easy.

We only maintain the current problems if we allow government to continue to grow and stifle individual and national economic growth.

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I'll go one step further on computer jobs and say get a degree in IT security. This field is wide open to anyone who wants to learn how to protect the nation or any major company in banking, insurance, health care, etc, from cyberterrorism.

As far as death of the American Dream...non-sense. If you want to go to college, buy a house, make a decent living wage or become a multi-millionaire, it's all still there for the taking. You just have to either plan for it, inherit it, work hard for it or luck into it. But it's all still there for those who truly want it. Doubt me? Ask every immigrant - legal or otherwise - who are still coming here in pursuit of that so-called "dead" dream?

I call BS!

Erod said:

Pay your house off.....don't pay your house off....it doesn't matter. Buying a home makes absolute sense.

You can buy a home, pay on it for 20 years while raising your kids, then sell it for twice what you paid for it (as long as Obama leaves the capital gains tax alone under $500,000 for a couple), and pay cash for something smaller when the kids are gone. If you have a 401K and other savings accounts to go with your social security check, you'll be living quite comfortably.

Unfortunately, many Americans don't have the basic discipline to accomplish that. They spend everything they earn with absolutely no plan, jump from job to job, drink/gamble/waste their money away, then cry to the government when they get caught with their pants down in the end.

Suze caters to the lowest common denominator, and with the subprime loan market dried up, her idea of the "American Dream" dried up, too.

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I don't jump job-to-job.
I save extensively
I'm a savvy shopper
I'm not addicted to unnecessary pleasures

Still - buying this home was a mistake, keeping it is yet another mistake - but since it's depreciated in value and it needs more work - no one wants it.

Your theory rests on the false idea that homes *only* appreciate with value. Homes, however, don't always appreciate in value - even in a good market many homes can LOSE value for reasons beyond your control and MANY people - even with both partners gainfully employed - can't afford a top-notch high-quality home in an area free of troubles that net this result.

To run a bet for 20 or 30 years with only a hope that maybe it'll be profitable is horrible advise to give anyone and it's that same bull idea that led countless people to buy homes they *couldn't afford to keep* and then defaulted- a nd here we are.

Other than the chance of maybe being profitable in 20 years - what does a home provide for you?
Nothing.

My parents did do that - they kept their house for just under 20 years - rented it out during that time to cover the payments for it - and they planned on selling it in 2010 when they knew that my Dad's stay in this state was up and he'd be relocated - so came along this years and they had no choice but to stick with their plan - they sold it and only netted one years pay in profit. Whoopie doodie.

What ended up happening was NOT their careful crystal-globe plan and it did NOT work.

If someone's american dream focuses ONLY on profiting and having a home and all that- they're fooling theirselves.
There are other things in life MORE valuable than that.

There is an issue here that most people are reluctant to talk about frankly and openly. But I will do so and throw caution to the wind.

I have known many men in my family and outside of my family in the neighborhood where i grew up who were good and decent people. The had a job, had a house that they maintained well and paid their taxes on, had a family which they raised and provided for and were contributing members of the community. They were not exceptionally smart of even skilled people. Some of them were probably those who would be categorized as "dull normal" in IQ tests and never finished school, never read anything, and were less than intellectually inquisitive.

There was lots of room for people like that in an agrarian economy. When we made the transition to a industrial economy, they made the move along with it. Because of the labor movement, they were able to get good factory jobs making good wages with good benefits. They were able to get married, have kids, buy a house and a new car every five or six years, take modest vacations once a year and generally provide and be productive. They could hold their head up high and live with dignity.

Where is the place in the modern world for that person today? The American Dream has vanished for that person.

haymarket said:

There is an issue here that most people are reluctant to talk about frankly and openly. But I will do so and throw caution to the wind.

I have known many men in my family and outside of my family in the neighborhood where i grew up who were good and decent people. The had a job, had a house that they maintained well and paid their taxes on, had a family which they raised and provided for and were contributing members of the community. They were not exceptionally smart of even skilled people. Some of them were probably those who would be categorized as "dull normal" in IQ tests and never finished school, never read anything, and were less than intellectually inquisitive.

There was lots of room for people like that in an agrarian economy. When we made the transition to a industrial economy, they made the move along with it. Because of the labor movement, they were able to get good factory jobs making good wages with good benefits. They were able to get married, have kids, buy a house and a new car every five or six years, take modest vacations once a year and generally provide and be productive. They could hold their head up high and live with dignity.

Where is the place in the modern world for that person today? The American Dream has vanished for that person.

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The place in the modern world for them is the same place they were before: average employment.
Cashier, clerk, stocker, file clerk in the retail world which is vast. Manufacturer, producer, maintenance and upkeep in the manufacturing world. Server, cook in the fast food industry . . and laborer, farmhand - the list goes on and on.

These average jobs are everywhere - a lot of our production is spread worldwide, now - which doesn't help. But that doesn't mean that these people *can't* find employment.

part of the Agricultural and then Industrial revolution led to people relocating to follow the flow of jobs. *That* is one key essential factor that's gone. People are much less likely/able to relocate their selves or their families because those costs have gone up.

Aunt Spiker said:

The place in the modern world for them is the same place they were before: average employment.
Cashier, clerk, stocker, file clerk in the retail world which is vast. Manufacturer, producer, maintenance and upkeep in the manufacturing world. Server, cook in the fast food industry . . and laborer, farmhand - the list goes on and on.

These average jobs are everywhere - a lot of our production is spread worldwide, now - which doesn't help. But that doesn't mean that these people *can't* find employment.

part of the Agricultural and then Industrial revolution led to people relocating to follow the flow of jobs. *That* is one key essential factor that's gone. People are much less likely/able to relocate their selves or their families because those costs have gone up.

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While some of that is true, it ignores that a very large segment of jobs that these folks could do have been outsourced in acts of economic treason by corporations. The type of jobs that you mention hardly compare with offering the same life style that blue collar manufacturing jobs offered. That is the point here in citing the death of the American Dream for those people.

They now have to settle for saying "welcome to Wal Mart" or "do you want fries with that order" and settle for minimum wage or something perhaps 50% higher if they are lucky.

They simply cannot live the same middle class life with that as their parents and others before them did. The American Dream has died for them.

haymarket said:

There is an issue here that most people are reluctant to talk about frankly and openly. But I will do so and throw caution to the wind.

I have known many men in my family and outside of my family in the neighborhood where i grew up who were good and decent people. The had a job, had a house that they maintained well and paid their taxes on, had a family which they raised and provided for and were contributing members of the community. They were not exceptionally smart of even skilled people. Some of them were probably those who would be categorized as "dull normal" in IQ tests and never finished school, never read anything, and were less than intellectually inquisitive.

There was lots of room for people like that in an agrarian economy. When we made the transition to a industrial economy, they made the move along with it. Because of the labor movement, they were able to get good factory jobs making good wages with good benefits. They were able to get married, have kids, buy a house and a new car every five or six years, take modest vacations once a year and generally provide and be productive. They could hold their head up high and live with dignity.

Where is the place in the modern world for that person today? The American Dream has vanished for that person.

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The American Dream is not an entitlement simply because one is a decent person. The American Dream is earned. We all have to adapt to the world we live. It would be lunacy to argue that since someone's father was a typewriter salesman and made a nice life that his children can do the same in the same line of work.. times change, and people have to change with them.

haymarket said:

While some of that is true, it ignores that a very large segment of jobs that these folks could do have been outsourced in acts of economic treason by corporations. The type of jobs that you mention hardly compare with offering the same life style that blue collar manufacturing jobs offered. That is the point here in citing the death of the American Dream for those people.

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Do you ever ask yourself why companies move jobs overseas? In many cases it is due to over-regulation and continued frivilious lawsuits. I know personally someone who shut down their manufacturing plant here and moved overseas.. the sole reason he did so was because he was sued every other day (not a single lawsuit of which held up) and his insurance costs to protect against this made it impossible to turn a profit.

GE recently shut down a lightbulb plant because the government mandated that only certain kinds of lightbulbs may now be sold. This argument that companies move overseas due to "corporate treason" is absurd.

They now have to settle for saying "welcome to Wal Mart" or "do you want fries with that order" and settle for minimum wage or something perhaps 50% higher if they are lucky.

They simply cannot live the same middle class life with that as their parents and others before them did. The American Dream has died for them.

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What is wrong with that? They can work hard at it, work their way up to Manager and keep going from there.

haymarket said:

While some of that is true, it ignores that a very large segment of jobs that these folks could do have been outsourced in acts of economic treason by corporations. The type of jobs that you mention hardly compare with offering the same life style that blue collar manufacturing jobs offered. That is the point here in citing the death of the American Dream for those people.

They now have to settle for saying "welcome to Wal Mart" or "do you want fries with that order" and settle for minimum wage or something perhaps 50% higher if they are lucky.

They simply cannot live the same middle class life with that as their parents and others before them did. The American Dream has died for them.

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What era or region of living are you talking about?

I don't know anyone who was an average person who worked an average job and lived comfortably while supporting their family. Average employment has always meant barely making ends meet for many - often the hard work of both spouses was necessary to make ends meet without beig able to afford luxuries. And they definitely weren't making enough to live comfortably and to take an actual vacation.

haymarket said:

There is an issue here that most people are reluctant to talk about frankly and openly. But I will do so and throw caution to the wind.

I have known many men in my family and outside of my family in the neighborhood where i grew up who were good and decent people. The had a job, had a house that they maintained well and paid their taxes on, had a family which they raised and provided for and were contributing members of the community. They were not exceptionally smart of even skilled people. Some of them were probably those who would be categorized as "dull normal" in IQ tests and never finished school, never read anything, and were less than intellectually inquisitive.

There was lots of room for people like that in an agrarian economy. When we made the transition to a industrial economy, they made the move along with it. Because of the labor movement, they were able to get good factory jobs making good wages with good benefits. They were able to get married, have kids, buy a house and a new car every five or six years, take modest vacations once a year and generally provide and be productive. They could hold their head up high and live with dignity.

Where is the place in the modern world for that person today? The American Dream has vanished for that person.

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Sure...we NEED the industrial base BACK. We are a service based economy. Until (or unless) those jobs return, there are still MANY decent paying jobs for hard working people. Not GREAT jobs...but still sufficient to provide.

Now...since we are talking...how about the 20-30 million illegals here that are filling entry level, unskilled positions, construction jobs, etc?

The solution is simple...but no one really wants to address the problems. It requires some brutal honesty.

NolaMan said:

The American Dream is not an entitlement simply because one is a decent person. The American Dream is earned. We all have to adapt to the world we live. It would be lunacy to argue that since someone's father was a typewriter salesman and made a nice life that his children can do the same in the same line of work.. times change, and people have to change with them.

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You are missing the point and perhaps it is my fault for not explaining it well. Allow me to try again.

In most of the 20th century was been room in America for decent folks who wanted to work hard to be middle class productive citizens who could hold up their head in the community even if they were not the fastest or the brightest, or if they were not the most talented or skilled, or if they were not business owners or had inherited wealth. They could be less than average intelligence but still find middle class employment wages in manufacturing jobs which paid union wages and benefits.

For many of those same folks today, that option is gone and nothing has replaced it for them.

It is silly to tell them to go to college and become computer experts. It is silly to tell them to learn new skills for which they do not have the capacity or intelligence to do. If the average IQ is 100 - half the people are at or below that. We are fast becoming a society where there is no real productive place for that person. And if there is a place at all, its a far more lower paid and less dignified place that existed just a decade ago.

I think that is what many people talk about when they are saying that the American Dream is dead for many for whom it was alive and well before.

haymarket said:

While some of that is true, it ignores that a very large segment of jobs that these folks could do have been outsourced in acts of economic treason by corporations. The type of jobs that you mention hardly compare with offering the same life style that blue collar manufacturing jobs offered. That is the point here in citing the death of the American Dream for those people.

They now have to settle for saying "welcome to Wal Mart" or "do you want fries with that order" and settle for minimum wage or something perhaps 50% higher if they are lucky.

They simply cannot live the same middle class life with that as their parents and others before them did. The American Dream has died for them.

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Let me give you an American dream success story...Joe Schmoe takes a job at Taco Bell. He proves after about 2 weeks to be a trustworthy and hard worker (and in the meantime...joe works weekends at the 7-11...dude is going to make this work). He is promoted to a shift manager...not great pay...but some bennies...and yes...he still has to work 2 jobs...no one said this was going to be easy. Lss than 6 months later he is asked if he is interested in training with Pepsico to be an assistant store manager. not great pay...but promoted to 26.5 salary (about 5 k less than average in the community...still has that second job. Less than 2 years later he gets his own corporate store...36k. Does a great job...now he is an RGM...5 years later he works out of his home office and only occasionally stops by the three stores he manages.

EVERY situation? Nope...but it happens all the time. As long as we are living in a service based economy...you better understand the game and know how to play. it helps if you talk to people that can help. But we see people like this every day.