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Warren Buffet: 'Trickle Down' Theory Doesn't Work

If it means cheaper products here in the U.S. and more money to spend on other things, that certainly would help create jobs.

We've given financial deregulation and trickle down economics 30 years, and that hasn't happened for the middle class. There is no simply incentive for the middle class to keep voting for tax cuts for the wealthy. Sorry.
 
We've given financial deregulation and trickle down economics 30 years, and that hasn't happened for the middle class. There is no simply incentive for the middle class to keep voting for tax cuts for the wealthy. Sorry.

I was only responding to the overseas investments claim. Deregulation works. Regulation creates the revolving door and there is almost nothing anyone can do to prevent that, except to deregulate. Regulation creates the incentive to lobby. It hurts small businesses more than big corporations who are capable of hiring an army of accountants, lawyers, and lobbyists to extract the highest benefit from the regulatory structure. Look at our politicians, especially the ones promoting financial regulation and oversight, and notice how well they profit in their private lives by giving favors.

You should check out the site OpenSecrets.org: Money in Politics -- See Who's Giving & Who's Getting sometime and see how regulatory politicians play the roles of both baptist and bootlegger.
 
Only if you ignore that a consumer economy requires consumers to prosper.
Not at all.

The cartoon did depict a cycle, after all.
328.jpg

Translated, it means: Money to spend = consumers to buy stuff = jobs = money to spend = (continue in a cyclical fashion).
How, exactly, does my statement that “less taxes = more money to spend” disagree with that?



Then you must be unaware that moderators have repeatedly warned not to bring political debate to the cartoon thread.
That is not what I meant. I meant that, as a cartoon, quite likely multiple liberties with reality had been taken – like a simplification of such for the purposes of prompting a laugh/reaction out of people.




The tax cuts for the rich were sold to the middle class that they would produce jobs in this country. Overseas investments do not provide jobs in this country.
Did I say otherwise?
I was simply arguing that, if you place tax cuts of ANY kind within the framework that image presents, they equal more money to spend. The image does not take into account WHERE said money is spent.
India and China's middle class is doing better while our own declines. Hell of a deal!!!
Personally, I would suggest tax incentives/cuts directed towards creating a business environment that is more attractive than overseas locations can provide.

Of course, lower standards of living in places like India and (especially) China make that more difficult.
 
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I was only responding to the overseas investments claim. Deregulation works. Regulation creates the revolving door and there is almost nothing anyone can do to prevent that, except to deregulate. Regulation creates the incentive to lobby. It hurts small businesses more than big corporations who are capable of hiring an army of accountants, lawyers, and lobbyists to extract the highest benefit from the regulatory structure. Look at our politicians, especially the ones promoting financial regulation and oversight, and notice how well they profit in their private lives by giving favors.

You should check out the site OpenSecrets.org: Money in Politics -- See Who's Giving & Who's Getting sometime and see how regulatory politicians play the roles of both baptist and bootlegger.

Deregulation is what created banks too big to fail, unsecured derivatives, and a housing crisis that brought us to the brink of another Great Depression.
 
Bull****. Ever heard of old money?
Yeah, I am a Longworth-look it up.

but the fact remains, my point is valid. Old money is invested just like new money. and guess who funds tons of the charitable trusts and foundations that enrich this nation
 
Not at all.

The cartoon did depict a cycle, after all.
328.jpg

Translated, it means: Money to spend = consumers to buy stuff = jobs = money to spend = (continue in a cyclical fashion).
How, exactly, does my statement that “less taxes = more money to spend” disagree with that?

How does half the country being in or near poverty as a result of most of the money being concentrated at the top = more money for consumers to spend???



That is not what I meant. I meant that, as a cartoon, quite likely multiple liberties with reality had been taken – like a simplification of such for the purposes of prompting a laugh/reaction out of people.

I don't know what you are trying to say there.


Did I say otherwise?
I was simply arguing that, if you place tax cuts of ANY kind within the framework that image presents, they equal more money to spend. The image does not take into account WHERE said money is spent.
Personally, I would suggest tax incentives/cuts directed towards creating a business environment that is more attractive than overseas locations can provide.

We know much of the money is not being spent to create jobs in this country, which is how the tax cuts for the wealthy were sold to the middle class. The Democrats have a bill to end tax breaks for companies that outsource jobs and provide tax incentives for creating jobs in this country and it was blocked by the GOP. When the Republicans spoke of trickle down, we thought it meant more jobs, not just being pissed on.

Of course, lower standards of living in places like India and (especially) China make that more difficult.

Make what more difficult?
 
Deregulation is what created banks too big to fail, unsecured derivatives, and a housing crisis that brought us to the brink of another Great Depression.

HOW, exactly? When you have government picking winners and losers and commanding a corporatist structure, how did deregulation cause the housing crisis? NOTHING in the market is too big to fail unless you have a government who refuses to let troubled banks fail. The CRA, the Federal Reserve, and GSEs caused this recent crisis.

Again, look at the statistics. The people responsible for regulating, responsible for saving banks, have vested interests in the banks that get saved and the markets that are regulated. If you want money out of politics, then build a wall separating government from Wall Street. Otherwise, businesses and governments will ultimately collude. Again, it is baptists and bootleggers working for a common goal.
 
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How does half the country being in or near poverty as a result of most of the money being concentrated at the top = more money for consumers to spend???





I don't know what you are trying to say there.




We know much of the money is not being spent to create jobs in this country, which is how the tax cuts for the wealthy were sold to the middle class. The Democrats have a bill to end tax breaks for companies that outsource jobs and provide tax incentives for creating jobs in this country and it was blocked by the GOP. When the Republicans spoke of trickle down, we thought it meant more jobs, not just being pissed on.



Make what more difficult?

If you want to stop being pissed on maybe one should stop groveling to the rich democrat masters you worship
 
How does half the country being in or near poverty as a result of most of the money being concentrated at the top = more money for consumers to spend???

When we had a thriving economic cycle and a near zero unemployment rate, money was still concentrated at the top. That is obviously not the problem.
 
HOW, exactly?
When you have government picking winners and losers and commanding a corporatist structure, how did deregulation cause the housing crisis?

Savings and Loan deregulation, Repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, Commodity Futures Modernization Act, and lax regulation of home buying are the main culprits.


NOTHING in the market is too big to fail unless you have a government who refuses to let troubled banks fail. The CRA, the Federal Reserve, and GSEs caused this recent crisis.

From the Great Depression until its repeal in the 99, the Glass-Steagall Act prevented investment banks from combining with commercial banks. With that firewall removed, there was nothing to stop the creation of banks too big too fail. If that had still been in effect, we could have let the investment banks fail with out sacrificing the commercial banks and therefore the world economy.

Again, look at the statistics. The people responsible for regulating, responsible for saving banks, have vested interests in the banks that get saved and the markets that are regulated. If you want money out of politics, then build a wall separating government from Wall Street. Otherwise, businesses and governments will ultimately collude. Again, it is baptists and bootleggers working for a common goal.

Yes, that is a problem as well. I am all for only allowing only public financing of politicians, and ending the Citizens United ruling.
 
How does half the country being in or near poverty as a result of most of the money being concentrated at the top = more money for consumers to spend???
How, exactly, are the richest persons NOT consumers?

Obviously not the same type, but still...

I don't know what you are trying to say there.
I’m saying that the cartoon is, in all likelihood, nowhere near an accurate representation of reality.

We know much of the money is not being spent to create jobs in this country, which is how the tax cuts for the wealthy were sold to the middle class. The Democrats have a bill to end tax breaks for companies that outsource jobs and provide tax incentives for creating jobs in this country and it was blocked by the GOP. When the Republicans spoke of trickle down, we thought it meant more jobs, not just being pissed on.
I was not planning to enter into a political discussion when I responded to that cartoon, but rather to make a short comment on what I considered a flaw in its primary argument.

By the way, why are you using “we” here? Do you speak on behalf of some organization?




Make what more difficult?
Lower standards of living in India and China mean that lower wages are necessary to support those lifestyles – translating into a workforce that is willing to accept lower wages than any sane American would for some tasks.

This further translates into lower labor costs for companies who have facilities in those countries.
And THAT means those companies can charge less for a product, since it cost them less to manufacture.

There’s no way in hell that the USA can compete in that area, because the standard of living US citizens want, even those classified as “poor”, is far higher than the standard of living for a similarly classified person in, say, China.

So, for example, a reduction in corporate income tax, or whatever taxes unreasonably increase the cost of doing business in the USA, would be an incentive for companies to start up here or relocate facilities here.
A simplification and reduction in the complexity and number of regulations businesses must follow would also help, as (IMO) an unreasonable portion of their income (before expenses, obviously) is wasted on meeting such. Income which could be better used to expand their business….and hire new employees.
 
How, exactly, are the richest persons NOT consumers?

Obviously not the same type, but still...

Example:
Who spends more money, 10,000 people that spend $1 million dollars, or 300 million that spend $30,000.

I’m saying that the cartoon is, in all likelihood, nowhere near an accurate representation of reality.

Yes, you are saying that. No, you have not proven that.

I was not planning to enter into a political discussion when I responded to that cartoon, but rather to make a short comment on what I considered a flaw in its primary argument.

According to the moderators, that is what the debate forums are for. Have you not seen the multiple warnings?

By the way, why are you using “we” here? Do you speak on behalf of some organization?

The majority of the country that support higher taxes for the wealthy. There have been over 20 polls that show this.


Lower standards of living in India and China mean that lower wages are necessary to support those lifestyles – translating into a workforce that is willing to accept lower wages than any sane American would for some tasks.

The standard of living is higher in China and India now than it was in the 1960s when the middle class was was better off in the US, so that can't be the reason. But how about the tax incentives we provide to companies that outsource jobs and investment? Think that might have something to do with it?
 
Savings and Loan deregulation, Repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, Commodity Futures Modernization Act, and lax regulation of home buying are the main culprits.

Those are most definitely NOT the main culprits of the crisis. Moral hazard, the federal reserve/distorted interest rates, top-down pressure on lending institutions to make risky mortgages, and personal debt are the largest reasons. Deregulation was not.

Is Deregulation to Blame? - Reason Magazine

From the Great Depression until its repeal in the 99, the Glass-Steagall Act prevented investment banks from combining with commercial banks. With that firewall removed, there was nothing to stop the creation of banks too big too fail. If that had still been in effect, we could have let the investment banks fail with out sacrificing the commercial banks and therefore the world economy.

You seem to think a loss of a major investment bank would be painless or at least, less serious than the loss of a commercial one. That is not necessarily so, given the interconnected intricacies of the market. Yet, if not for the partial repeal of G-S, many private commercial banks would not have been able to purchase failing investment ones. Also, as the article above noted, those institutions that did not take advantage of G-S repeal failed on a spectacular level partly because they could not be saved from a stable flow of money. Also, these banks were pretty massive even before the partial repeal.

Yes, that is a problem as well. I am all for only allowing only public financing of politicians, and ending the Citizens United ruling.

That is a completely separate issue. I'm talking about dishonest politicians standing for regulatory reform and financial oversight while playing a game of profitable insider-trading. This also involves big businesses being granted special privileges and insider information at the expense of other businesses (most especially small businesses). Add to that the total inefficiency and wastefulness of the regulatory structures. See regulatory capture.

As for "public financing" of politicians, what does that mean exactly? Public financing, in my mind, means taxpayer-funded. Shouldn't political campaigns be funded by private individuals and private organizations? I support the CU ruling because of the 1st Amendment, and because government does not have authority to restrict the right of individuals- or groups of individuals- from making political contributions or ads.
 
That article did not respond to my counter-argument. Throughout the 1990s and most of the 2000s, we had fairly low unemployment rates and a relatively stable growth in GDP. This is despite our vast "income inequality."

Due to greater financial regulation, higher taxes on the wealthy and less military spending in the 90's. I don't think you can call the greatest Recession since the Great Depression of the 2000s, stable growth.
 
Those are most definitely NOT the main culprits of the crisis. Moral hazard, the federal reserve/distorted interest rates, top-down pressure on lending institutions to make risky mortgages, and personal debt are the largest reasons. Deregulation was not.

Is Deregulation to Blame? - Reason Magazine

Deregulation was most certainly to blame:

"The late-2000s financial crisis, also known as the Global Financial Crisis (GFC) or the "Great Recession", is considered by many economists to be the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s.[1] It resulted in the collapse of large financial institutions, the bailout of banks by national governments and downturns in stock markets around the world. In many areas, the housing market also suffered, resulting in numerous evictions, foreclosures and prolonged unemployment. It contributed to the failure of key businesses, declines in consumer wealth estimated in the trillions of U.S. dollars, and a significant decline in economic activity, leading to a severe global economic recession in 2008.[2]
The financial crisis was triggered by a complex interplay of valuation and liquidity problems in the United States banking system in 2008.[3][4] The bursting of the U.S. housing bubble, which peaked in 2007, caused the values of securities tied to U.S. real estate pricing to plummet, damaging financial institutions globally.[5][6] Questions regarding bank solvency, declines in credit availability and damaged investor confidence had an impact on global stock markets, where securities suffered large losses during 2008 and early 2009. Economies worldwide slowed during this period, as credit tightened and international trade declined.[7] Governments and central banks responded with unprecedented fiscal stimulus, monetary policy expansion and institutional bailouts. Although there have been aftershocks, the financial crisis itself ended sometime between late-2008 and mid-2009.[8][9][10]
Many causes for the financial crisis have been suggested, with varying weight assigned by experts.[11] The United States Senate issued the Levin–Coburn Report, which found "that the crisis was not a natural disaster, but the result of high risk, complex financial products; undisclosed conflicts of interest; and the failure of regulators, the credit rating agencies, and the market itself to rein in the excesses of Wall Street."[12]
Critics argued that credit rating agencies and investors failed to accurately price the risk involved with mortgage-related financial products, and that governments did not adjust their regulatory practices to address 21st-century financial markets.[13] The 1999 repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between Wall Street investment banks and depository banks.[14] In response to the financial crisis, both market-based and regulatory solutions have been implemented or are under consideration.[15]"

Late-2000s financial crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You seem to think a loss of a major investment bank would be painless or at least, less serious than the loss of a commercial one. That is not necessarily so, given the interconnected intricacies of the market. Yet, if not for the partial repeal of G-S, many private commercial banks would not have been able to purchase failing investment ones. Also, as the article above noted, those institutions that did not take advantage of G-S repeal failed on a spectacular level partly because they could not be saved from a stable flow of money. Also, these banks were pretty massive even before the partial repeal.

If Glass Steagall had not been repealed there would not have been the "interconnected intricacies of the market", that's the point.



That is a completely separate issue. I'm talking about dishonest politicians standing for regulatory reform and financial oversight while playing a game of profitable insider-trading. This also involves big businesses being granted special privileges and insider information at the expense of other businesses (most especially small businesses). Add to that the total inefficiency and wastefulness of the regulatory structures. See regulatory capture.

You were talking about corporate influence of politicians, there has never been a bigger avenue for corporate influence than through the Citizens United ruling. The Democrats just voted to end insider trading even though the GOP tried to stop them.

As for "public financing" of politicians, what does that mean exactly? Public financing, in my mind, means taxpayer-funded.

That's exactly what it means, it eliminates the influence of corporate funding in election campaigns, so you no longer have politicians being beholden to rich sponsors.

Shouldn't political campaigns be funded by private individuals and private organizations? I support the CU ruling because of the 1st Amendment, and because government does not have authority to restrict the right of individuals- or groups of individuals- from making political contributions or ads.

Then your stated desire for less corporate influence has no credibility, at least not with liberals.
 
Due to greater financial regulation, higher taxes on the wealthy and less military spending in the 90's. I don't think you can call the greatest Recession since the Great Depression of the 2000s, stable growth.

1) For the large part the 2000s decade, we had relatively low unemployment and relatively stable economic growth. **** did not start hitting the fan until 2008.

Your logic doesn't explain the economic growth after deregulation (or even the return of our economy today) or the recessions of past decades (when financial regulations were in place).

2) We still had a poor Gini index rating throughout the 1990s and 2000s, and even before. How does this explain the implied logic that a greater concentration of money at the top = recession?

3) Clinton only raised taxes slightly on the wealthiest 1%. He lowered capital gains, estate, and middle class taxes. It was not that significant. Reagan raised taxes almost every year of his presidency and expanded military spending, and again our economy was flush.

4) Clinton's elimination of wasteful regulation and cutback on federal employees (90% from the military) proved how much we could save by reducing the government workforce.
 
1) For the large part the 2000s decade, we had relatively low unemployment and relatively stable economic growth. **** did not start hitting the fan until 2008.

"Obama was also correct when he said that last year’s private job growth was the most in six years and that the manufacturing sector experienced job gains not seen since the 20th century."
FactCheck.org : The State of Obama’s Facts

Your logic doesn't explain the economic growth after deregulation (or even the return of our economy today) or the recessions of past decades (when financial regulations were in place).

Our economic growth was less than it was under greater financial regulation and higher taxation for the wealthy in the 90s.

2) We still had a poor Gini index rating throughout the 1990s and 2000s, and even before. How does this explain the implied logic that a greater concentration of money at the top = recession?

Deregulation and trickle down economics began in i981.

3) Clinton only raised taxes slightly on the wealthiest 1%. He lowered capital gains, estate, and middle class taxes. It was not that significant.

I'm fine with going back the tax rates of the 90's, including the capital gains rate, the inheritance tax rate, and the lesser loopholes for the rich.

Reagan raised taxes almost every year of his presidency and expanded military spending, and again our economy was flush.

Flush??? Our debt increased more under Reagan, than all the presidents before him combined.

4) Clinton's elimination of wasteful regulation and cutback on federal employees (90% from the military) proved how much we could save by reducing the government workforce.

What wasteful regulation did Clinton get rid of??? I agree we need to cut our military spending.
 
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Deregulation was most certainly to blame:

Not really, unless you referring to regulating the federal reserve with more austerity.

"The late-2000s financial crisis, also known as the Global Financial Crisis (GFC) or the "Great Recession", is considered by many economists to be the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s.[1] It resulted in the collapse of large financial institutions, the bailout of banks by national governments and downturns in stock markets around the world. In many areas, the housing market also suffered, resulting in numerous evictions, foreclosures and prolonged unemployment. It contributed to the failure of key businesses, declines in consumer wealth estimated in the trillions of U.S. dollars, and a significant decline in economic activity, leading to a severe global economic recession in 2008.[2]
The financial crisis was triggered by a complex interplay of valuation and liquidity problems in the United States banking system in 2008.[3][4] The bursting of the U.S. housing bubble, which peaked in 2007, caused the values of securities tied to U.S. real estate pricing to plummet, damaging financial institutions globally.[5][6] Questions regarding bank solvency, declines in credit availability and damaged investor confidence had an impact on global stock markets, where securities suffered large losses during 2008 and early 2009. Economies worldwide slowed during this period, as credit tightened and international trade declined.[7] Governments and central banks responded with unprecedented fiscal stimulus, monetary policy expansion and institutional bailouts. Although there have been aftershocks, the financial crisis itself ended sometime between late-2008 and mid-2009.[8][9][10]
Many causes for the financial crisis have been suggested, with varying weight assigned by experts.[11] The United States Senate issued the Levin–Coburn Report, which found "that the crisis was not a natural disaster, but the result of high risk, complex financial products; undisclosed conflicts of interest; and the failure of regulators, the credit rating agencies, and the market itself to rein in the excesses of Wall Street."[12]
Critics argued that credit rating agencies and investors failed to accurately price the risk involved with mortgage-related financial products, and that governments did not adjust their regulatory practices to address 21st-century financial markets.[13] The 1999 repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between Wall Street investment banks and depository banks.[14] In response to the financial crisis, both market-based and regulatory solutions have been implemented or are under consideration.[15]"

Late-2000s financial crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can selectively read wikipedia too:

"Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits. In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers... In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980s."

Lower interest rates encourage borrowing. From 2000 to 2003, the Federal Reserve lowered the federal funds rate target from 6.5% to 1.0%.[55] This was done to soften the effects of the collapse of the dot-com bubble and of the September 2001 terrorist attacks, and to combat the perceived risk of deflation.[56]

A "flood" of funds (capital or liquidity) reached the USA financial markets. Foreign governments supplied funds by purchasing USA Treasury bonds and thus avoided much of the direct impact of the crisis. USA households, on the other hand, used funds borrowed from foreigners to finance consumption or to bid up the prices of housing and financial assets.

The Fed then raised the Fed funds rate significantly between July 2004 and July 2006.[59] This contributed to an increase in 1-year and 5-year adjustable-rate mortgage (ARM) rates, making ARM interest rate resets more expensive for homeowners.[60]

USA household debt as a percentage of annual disposable personal income was 127% at the end of 2007, versus 77% in 1990.[92]
In 1981, U.S. private debt was 123% of GDP; by the third quarter of 2008, it was 290%.[93]

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two U.S. Government sponsored enterprises, owned or guaranteed nearly $5 trillion in mortgage obligations at the time they were placed into conservatorship by the U.S. government in September 2008.[95][96]

Moral hazard: Uncle Sam as sugar daddy - Outside the Box - MarketWatch

If Glass Steagall had not been repealed there would not have been the "interconnected intricacies of the market", that's the point.

You missed the point. Investment banks invest in banks, various corporations and businesses, and governments. Your "protect the commercial and forget the investment" argument is flawed on its face because of the enormous role played by investment banks in the world economy (without even considering the merger of investment and commercial bankers).

You were talking about corporate influence of politicians, there has never been a bigger avenue for corporate influence than through the Citizens United ruling. The Democrats just voted to end insider trading even though the GOP tried to stop them.

You mean the same democrats who each received hundreds of thousands of dollars from campaign contributions from large multi-national corporations and their lobbyists? The same democrats who bought stock in various companies after voting to bail them out or subsidize them? What about Warren Buffet and his hedge fund? Did you care to read into his vested interests on the matter? PLEASE...check out OpenSecrets.org (for some reason, the Center for Responsive Politics' website isn't loading right now, but come back to it).

That's exactly what it means, it eliminates the influence of corporate funding in election campaigns, so you no longer have politicians being beholden to rich sponsors.

That's a wonderful idea! Instead of private citizens voluntarily paying for their own candidates, let's have politicians and their cronies decide to spend the public's tax money on themselves.

Then your stated desire for less corporate influence has no credibility, at least not with liberals.

Which liberals? The ones taking gifts from corporations in order to vote a certain way or finagle regulations to suit the interests of MNCs?
 
"Obama was also correct when he said that last year’s private job growth was the most in six years and that the manufacturing sector experienced job gains not seen since the 20th century."
FactCheck.org : The State of Obama’s Facts

First, that did not respond to my comment. Second, it only adds to my argument that the financial regulations had little to do with growth vs. recession. We seem to be coming out of the recession FINALLY and yet our regulatory structure is largely the same as it was in 2008. Wouldn't that run contrary to the logic of regulation saving us from future recessions? In reality, it is the nature of the business cycle and price fixing (in terms of interest rates and inflation) that is causing the bubbles to grow and burst. Since you did a thorough reading of this recession, take a quick glimpse of our previous recessions. Next, examine our economy before the Federal Reserve and government intervention. Do you notice a difference in severity and duration of recessions vs. panics?

Our economic growth was less than it was under greater financial regulation and higher taxation for the wealthy in the 90s.

Again, Clinton only slightly raised taxes on the wealthy. With the capital gains and other tax cuts, it turned out to be only a marginal difference in revenue. The great accomplishment during Clinton's presidency was his commitment to cut spending.

BTW, when the top marginal rate is too high, it doesn't correlate with a higher level of revenue. See Hauser's Law:

Hauser's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deregulation and trickle down economics began in i981.

Again, you didn't respond to my comment. We had a growing economy in the 1990s, but was our Gini index significantly different than it is today?

Flush??? Our debt increased more under Reagan, than all the presidents before him combined.

I'm not a fan of Reagan's spending spree either, but in relation to GDP, it wasn't as serious as it is today. Our economy was stable and growing.

What wasteful regulation did Clinton get rid of??? I agree we need to cut our military spending.

It was part of his package to streamline regulation, partly by reducing it. Don't you remember the video of Clinton and Gore standing outside in front of tens of thousands of regulatory paperwork affecting businesses that they pledged to eliminate?
 
Not really, unless you referring to regulating the federal reserve with more austerity.

The Fed is what kept us from going into another Great Depression due to deregulation.


I can selectively read wikipedia too:

I didn't selectively quote wiki, I quoted the main thrust at the top of the page.

"Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits. In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers... In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980s."

So what we needed was tighter regulations on Fanny and Freddie and the private banks to not allow loans to subprime borrowers. Good point!

Lower interest rates encourage borrowing. From 2000 to 2003, the Federal Reserve lowered the federal funds rate target from 6.5% to 1.0%.[55] This was done to soften the effects of the collapse of the dot-com bubble and of the September 2001 terrorist attacks, and to combat the perceived risk of deflation.[56]

Good thing we had the Fed to help soften the blow. Good point!

A "flood" of funds (capital or liquidity) reached the USA financial markets. Foreign governments supplied funds by purchasing USA Treasury bonds and thus avoided much of the direct impact of the crisis. USA households, on the other hand, used funds borrowed from foreigners to finance consumption or to bid up the prices of housing and financial assets.

The Fed then raised the Fed funds rate significantly between July 2004 and July 2006.[59] This contributed to an increase in 1-year and 5-year adjustable-rate mortgage (ARM) rates, making ARM interest rate resets more expensive for homeowners.[6

With proper regulation of the subprime loans this would not have been a problem. Good point!



USA household debt as a percentage of annual disposable personal income was 127% at the end of 2007, versus 77% in 1990.[92]
In 1981, U.S. private debt was 123% of GDP; by the third quarter of 2008, it was 290%.[93]

That's not what I'm seeing:

20060327iua.gif

Is the U.S. Economy in Crisis?

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two U.S. Government sponsored enterprises, owned or guaranteed nearly $5 trillion in mortgage obligations at the time they were placed into conservatorship by the U.S. government in September 2008.[95][96]

From above:

"Many causes for the financial crisis have been suggested, with varying weight assigned by experts.[11] The United States Senate issued the Levin–Coburn Report, which found "that the crisis was not a natural disaster, but the result of high risk, complex financial products; undisclosed conflicts of interest; and the failure of regulators, the credit rating agencies, and the market itself to rein in the excesses of Wall Street."[12]"




You missed the point. Investment banks invest in banks, various corporations and businesses, and governments. Your "protect the commercial and forget the investment" argument is flawed on its face because of the enormous role played by investment banks in the world economy (without even considering the merger of investment and commercial bankers).

"Despite what most financial critics would consider to be a “harsh” law, the Glass-Steagall act served its purpose for many years. Under the Act, regulators protected bank depositors from speculation of the stock market and other investment banking activities.

It also prevented manipulation of finances among the major players of Wallstreet who only managed to earn their dollars not through trading, but through “financialization”. Putting back the act to effect would help diminish fraudulent activity and will give the regulations we seriously need."
Should the Glass-Steagall Act be brought back? | Your Finances Simplified


You mean the same democrats who each received hundreds of thousands of dollars from campaign contributions from large multi-national corporations and their lobbyists? The same democrats who bought stock in various companies after voting to bail them out or subsidize them?

Yeah, they finally did the right thing, even if the GOP wasn't quite prepared to give it up.

What about Warren Buffet and his hedge fund? Did you care to read into his vested interests on the matter? PLEASE...check out OpenSecrets.org (for some reason, the Center for Responsive Politics' website isn't loading right now, but come back to it).

Warren Buffet and 400 other uber rich petitioned Congress to raise the tax rates for their income class.



That's a wonderful idea! Instead of private citizens voluntarily paying for their own candidates, let's have politicians and their cronies decide to spend the public's tax money on themselves.

You have not read the McCain-Feingold finance reform have you? Each candidate would get an equal amount.


Which liberals?

Evidently, the ones that don't have much in common with libertarians, except cutting military spending, despite our earlier optimism that we might be able to work together more. That's a pity.
 
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The Fed is what kept us from going into another Great Depression due to deregulation.

Given that the Fed was the culprit of the Great Depression, it makes it harder to believe they would have prevented this recession. What about the line of easy credit and the distorted interest rates?

So what we needed was tighter regulations on Fanny and Freddie and the private banks to not allow loans to subprime borrowers. Good point!

Government regulation is extremely ineffective in virtually every department. Why not ask for total regulation (i.e. nationalization) of the housing market? That way, you would have a 100% guarantee that no subprime loans are made. How well did Sarbanes-Oxley prevent the fraud from this crisis?


Good thing we had the Fed to help soften the blow. Good point!

Selective reading. It supposedly help soften the blow of a perceived deflationary period following 9/11. Yet it also led to the easy line of credit that help fuel the housing bubble.

With proper regulation of the subprime loans this would not have been a problem. Good point!

If a government can't even control its own enterprises, how do you expect it to control other problems? Don't you think the political pressure on lending institutions to increase loans to risky borrowers coupled with a guarantee of bailout have anything to do with the crisis?

Yeah, they finally did the right thing, even if the GOP wasn't quite prepared to give it up.

Sure. 100 years of underhanded colluding and finally they see the light. We'll see what happens. Reminds me of good ol' T.R. and his hypocritical stance on dirty money.

Warren Buffet and 400 other uber rich petitioned Congress to raise the tax rates for their income class.

Not to mention Buffet has the ability to donate to the federal treasury but hasn't (or at least hasn't published evidence of it), or that his investment firm owes back taxes, or that he made millions off the bailouts and stimulus.

You have not read the McCain-Feingold finance reform have you? Each candidate would get an equal amount.

You misused the term public funding. That implies taxpayer funding. In any event, there is no equality in contributions either now or before CU ruling. Candidates were free to accept funds from as many donors as possible. There was a limit, of course. But that didn't stop corporations, organizations, and wealthy individuals from hiring people to donate money. Regardless, it was against the 1st Amendment to restrict the right of people- including groups of people- from donating to candidates.




Evidently, the ones that don't have much in common with libertarians, except cutting military spending, despite our earlier optimism that we might be able to work together more. That's a pity.

Libertarians hold major contempt for any attempt to get businesses and governments working together. In our perfect world, a free market would mean ZERO subsidies, ZERO bailouts, ZERO free loans, ZERO favorable regulatory structures and laws, etc. We have a hand-out system today, and both liberals and conservatives have their hands out asking big business to provide gifts in exchange for favors. Libertarians are against all of that.
 
Yeah, I am a Longworth-look it up.

but the fact remains, my point is valid.

Well that explains why you believe in the trickle up theory.

Doesn't work, never has. There's way too much evidence to the contrary. Let;s not even get started on off shoring money either. No doubt all your family money is working right here at home...The word "history" comes to mind.
 
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