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Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

bowerbird said:
There is a method of assessing the patients probable survival - although it is a little time consuming so can't be done in an emergency situation. Basically we will not admit to ICU if the APACHE III score is less than a certain number although that is a little age and circumstance dependent. I.e. a young mother would get admitted no matter how near or even beyond certainty that she would not survive because we have to give them a chance

We will admit someone sometimes for palliative care because it is the only single room available and the family want to be with the person

Compassion plays a BIG part in decision making - and that goes BOTH ways - ICU can be a messy, horrible death
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Thanks for the info. This is something that isn't being discussed enough in the US, but it isn't what I was referring to in my earlier post when I mentioned being turned down for treatment. I was referring to the rationing of health care due to doctor shortages.
 
mpg said:
Thanks for the info. This is something that isn't being discussed enough in the US, but it isn't what I was referring to in my earlier post when I mentioned being turned down for treatment. I was referring to the rationing of health care due to doctor shortages.
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You don't have doctor shortages over there - try working in Rural Australia. We have a standing opening for an Orthopaedic doctor (Bone Bozo) that has a quarter million dollar salary, free house, free car and paid holidays, paid long service leave, paid conference leave, two free round trip flights per year to nearest capital city - and we STILL cannot get anyone to leave their cosy capital cities and come here,
 
bowerbird said:
You don't have doctor shortages over there - try working in Rural Australia. We have a standing opening for an Orthopaedic doctor (Bone Bozo) that has a quarter million dollar salary, free house, free car and paid holidays, paid long service leave, paid conference leave, two free round trip flights per year to nearest capital city - and we STILL cannot get anyone to leave their cosy capital cities and come here,
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Rural US has shortages as well.

Along with comprehensive and affordable coverage, access to high quality providers is also a key component of obtaining high quality care. Rural areas continue to suffer from a lack of diverse providers for their communities’ health care needs.

There were 55 primary care physicians per 100,000 residents in rural areas in 2005, compared with 72 per 100,000 in urban areas. This decreases to 36 per 100,000 in isolated, small rural areas.11

Health Care and the Rural Economy
 
Boo Radley said:
Rural US has shortages as well.

Along with comprehensive and affordable coverage, access to high quality providers is also a key component of obtaining high quality care. Rural areas continue to suffer from a lack of diverse providers for their communities’ health care needs.

There were 55 primary care physicians per 100,000 residents in rural areas in 2005, compared with 72 per 100,000 in urban areas. This decreases to 36 per 100,000 in isolated, small rural areas.11

Health Care and the Rural Economy
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We do have one advantage though - if you need specialist treatment the government pays your flight - to the nearest centre and back. If you need ICU we fly you out via Royal Flying Doctor Service (which is not cheap at over $5,000 per ICU flight) AND we will pay for a relative to fly out next commercial flight

But with EVERY fractured finger being flown to the coast it would be FAR cheaper to entice an Orthopaedic surgeon to stay here.

Trouble is they are mostly snobs and won't leave the big cities (or at least their spouses won't)
 
bowerbird said:
You don't have doctor shortages over there - try working in Rural Australia. We have a standing opening for an Orthopaedic doctor (Bone Bozo) that has a quarter million dollar salary, free house, free car and paid holidays, paid long service leave, paid conference leave, two free round trip flights per year to nearest capital city - and we STILL cannot get anyone to leave their cosy capital cities and come here,
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I was referring to the doctor shortages in other countries which are due to the kind of policies that US Democrats favor.
 
bowerbird said:
We do have one advantage though - if you need specialist treatment the government pays your flight - to the nearest centre and back. If you need ICU we fly you out via Royal Flying Doctor Service (which is not cheap at over $5,000 per ICU flight) AND we will pay for a relative to fly out next commercial flight

But with EVERY fractured finger being flown to the coast it would be FAR cheaper to entice an Orthopaedic surgeon to stay here.

Trouble is they are mostly snobs and won't leave the big cities (or at least their spouses won't)
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Someone doesn't want to uproot their family to move to a ****ty rural area and that makes them a snob? If your area can't entice anyone to come there at the salary they're offering, maybe they should try offering more.
 
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megaprogman said:
This is the way I look at it. You have limited resources and you want to save as much life as possible with it, right? Because while life is priceless, more life is still better than less life. So, if you channel your resources to something that saves the most life, you have done the best you can. However, if you channel your resources in such a way that by saving one life, three (arbitrary number, but using it to make a point) lives are wasted, you have done harm.
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You're looking at it all wrong. The goal should be to have enough resources to save all. Get the cost of healthcare down. Get the cost of meds down. Make sure we don't lose, but gain doctors. Become a prosperous country again. Get government out of the way and forget about single payer where the government will be forced to decide who lives and who dies. Who gets a hip replacement and who gets a pain pill instead.
Megaprogman, your thinking is just like that new HC guy who was recently appointed by Obama. (his name excapes me) Anyway, he is very excited about taking over and rationing care. I guess this is how they can say the HC bill won't add to the deficit.
We are not doomed to have death panels unless we keep going down the road we are on.
 
winston53660 said:
In y situation it is not so much about money but it is about the availability of a heart. There is only so many of the things around ya know?
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That's completely different then letting someone die because the treatment is too expensive.
 
megaprogman said:
It sucks, I agree and I am glad I am not the one who has to make that kind of choice. It would be like a military commander who has to choose who is going to die in the next assault.

However, the way I see it is that I would rather have to make the choice between who's life to save over whether to save a life or protect an insurance company's profits. The second one truly is putting a price on life.
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I guess you weren't one of the posters calling Sarah Palin a liar when she insisted there would be death panels if the HC bill passed.
 
rathi said:
Were you unaware of the millions of people around the world who die because they can't afford the costs of the basic medical care or clean drinking water? Resource distribution is a zero-sum game. That nice computer you are typing is probably worth enough money to save a dozen lives in Somali. Ultimately, you do have to decide how much a human life is worth one way or another. I frankly find it a lot easier to justify not paying tens of thousands of dollars to get a few extra-months of pain-wracked existence for someone who has lived a long life than it is to not pay one hundred to save a kids life just because they were born in the wrong country.
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Redistribution of wealth around the globe (or the country) will not solve the problem. The best way for America to help the world is to become prosperous again so we are better able to help others. Right now we are doing a piss poor job of caring for our own.
Think of it this way. If you are a parent, you really need to think about your own health and well being first. If you are sick or you die, you'll be unable to care for your children.
Or if you're on a plane and everyone is told to put on their oxygen, you really need to put yours on first, before you put your toddlers on.
 
obvious Child said:
Indeed. I don't quite understand why people think it's better for death panels to be completely closed off from public review, without any public transparency rather then having public input and oversight. Really, sunlight is the best disinfectant and people like Zimmer are arguing for no sunlight. Do we want to know how these decisions are being made? Absolutely. Well, that goes for me. I don't think having life and death decisions made in some back office of an insurance agency who fights tooth and nail to prevent you from knowing anything is a good idea. Maybe some people do?
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If I'm not mistaken Medicare and Medicaid denies more tests and treatments than insurance companies.
 
Barbbtx said:
If I'm not mistaken Medicare and Medicaid denies more tests and treatments than insurance companies.
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Maybe they have more people trying to take advantage of the system?
 
RightinNYC said:
Someone doesn't want to uproot their family to move to a ****ty rural area and that makes them a snob? If your area can't entice anyone to come there at the salary they're offering, maybe they should try offering more.
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There is a law of diminishing returns - more than that and it becomes cheaper just to fly people in and out. Remember it is not always JUST the specialist - for every specialist there is about half a million dollars worth of infrastructure - at least
 
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