The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

Agent Ferris · Aug 23, 2010

iangb said:
Whereas I've just given you a quote where he directly calls for a pluralistic, tolerant society, and evidence that he condemnes the 9/11 bombers.

And yet compares the United States unfavorably to the 9-11 bombers, and yet calls for a Sharia compliant United States.

With regards to the claims themselves, the first is undeniably true,

The U.S. has more innocent Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has innocent non-Muslim blood on its hands?

And before you say he didn't say "innocent Muslim blood," he said "Muslim Blood," it is implied through the comparison with "innocent non-Muslim blood," unless you are suggesting killing guilty Muslims is akin to killing innocent non-Muslims.

the second and third are dubious but just about passable depending on the context,

They aren't passable they're false terrorist apologetics.

the fourth is understandable

You understand how someone can not label Hamas a terrorist organization?

and the fifth is so widely interpretable that without further context it's irrlevant.

He says that secular laws should not contradict the Koran or the Hadiths.

I'm sure you can cite all of these, of course?

I believe you have already requested me to provide these sources at least twice, but I'll do it one more time and this will be the last:

Bradley: Are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?

Faisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.

Bradley: You say that we're an accessory? How?

Faisal: Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.

Prominent American Muslims denounce terror committed in the name of Islam

According to the State Department's assessment, "Hamas terrorists, especially those in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks, including large-scale suicide bombings, against Israeli civilian and military targets."

Asked if he agreed with the State Department's assessment, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf told WABC radio, "Look, I'm not a politician.

"The issue of terrorism is a very complex question," he told interviewer Aaron Klein.

"There was an attempt in the '90s to have the UN define what terrorism is and say who was a terrorist. There was no ability to get agreement on that."

Asked again for his opinion on Hamas, an exasperated Rauf wouldn't budge.

"I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy," Rauf said, insisting that he wants to see peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs.

Rauf also would not answer a question about Egypt's outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.

"I have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. My father was never a member of the Muslim Brotherhood," he said, disputing a rumor.

Muslim Imam leading push to build a mosque near Ground Zero wavers on questions about Hamas as a terror group - NYPOST.com

At the core of Shariah law are God's commandments, revealed in the Old Testament and revised in the New Testament and the Quran. The principles behind American secular law are similar to Shariah law - that we protect life, liberty and property, that we provide for the common welfare, that we maintain a certain amount of modesty. What Muslims want is to ensure that their secular laws are not in conflict with the Quran or the Hadith, the sayings of Muhammad.

On Faith Panelists Blog: How Islamic Law Can Work - Feisal Abdul Rauf

Why does this make something 'not a mosque'? It's an Islamic community centre - in other words, it's biased. That doesn't stop it being a community centre, though - it doesn't prevent non-Muslims from benefitting from the rest of it.

Words mean things:

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

It's a Mosque.

That's not a reason to call it a mosque, though. It has far more purposes than Islam-related ones.

So do Evangelical Mega-Churches. :roll:

iangb · Aug 23, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
And yet compares the United States unfavorably to the 9-11 bombers, and yet calls for a Sharia compliant United States.

To be dealt with below

The U.S. has more innocent Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has innocent non-Muslim blood on its hands?

And before you say he didn't say "innocent Muslim blood," he said "Muslim Blood," it is implied through the comparison with "innocent non-Muslim blood," unless you are suggesting killing guilty Muslims is akin to killing innocent non-Muslims.

Yup.

9/11 killed 2995 people, including the terrorists themselves. The US-led war in Afghanistan has directly killed at least 5,791 Afghan civilians, if not more.

They aren't passable they're false terrorist apologetics.

No, they are passable. The quote you have from him is more or less what I'd say, in fact - the US is not to blame for being attacked, but it certainly set itself up as a target.

You understand how someone can not label Hamas a terrorist organization?

Certainly - if you want to make peace between two sides, you don't get very far by publically denouncing one side as 'terrorists'.

He says that secular laws should not contradict the Koran or the Hadiths.

The part of the interview you missed out: "Where there is a conflict, it is not with Shariah law itself but more often with the way the penal code is sometimes applied. Some aspects of this penal code and its laws pertaining to women flow out of the cultural context. The religious imperative is about justice and fairness. If you strive for justice and fairness in the penal code, then you are in keeping with moral imperative of the Shariah."

I believe you have already requested me to provide these sources at least twice, but I'll do it one more time and this will be the last:

This is the first time I've seen them, to my memory. Thanks.

Words mean things:

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

It's a Mosque.

Then the classroom where the Muslim girls at my school go to pray is also a mosque. I believe RS also gets taught there - hurray for tolerant mosques!

So do Evangelical Mega-Churches. :roll:

I haven't come across them befgore, so I can't comment.

Hoplite · Aug 23, 2010

I'm still waiting to see proof of this mass of unions refusing to participate in this. I see a couple guys on the page who say they wont help, but no one who can speak for their respective unions.

Un-shockingly enough, comments are moderated such that any dissenting viewpoint, regardless of the tone, is not posted. If their cause is so "righteous" why do they need to censor comments?

Hoplite · Aug 23, 2010

Double Post

Agent Ferris · Aug 23, 2010

iangb said:
To be dealt with below

Yup.

9/11 killed 2995 people, including the terrorists themselves. The US-led war in Afghanistan has directly killed at least 5,791 Afghan civilians, if not more.

And that blood is not on our hands sport, it's on the hands of those who started the war IE AQ and the Taliban who after they started the war decided to violate all laws and customs of war by not wearing uniforms, hiding amongst civilians, and intentionally targeting civilians.

No, they are passable. The quote you have from him is more or less what I'd say, in fact - the US is not to blame for being attacked, but it certainly set itself up as a target.

No they are not passable he clearly said that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11 and that OBL was made in the USA, he placed blame on the US for 9-11.

Certainly - if you want to make peace between two sides, you don't get very far by publically denouncing one side as 'terrorists'.

lol the entire EU, the US, Canada and Australia designate Hamas as a terrorist organization, I guess we're all against peace except for the Islamist deuce Imam Rauf. :roll:

The part of the interview you missed out: "Where there is a conflict, it is not with Shariah law itself but more often with the way the penal code is sometimes applied. Some aspects of this penal code and its laws pertaining to women flow out of the cultural context. The religious imperative is about justice and fairness. If you strive for justice and fairness in the penal code, then you are in keeping with moral imperative of the Shariah."

This is the first time I've seen them, to my memory. Thanks.

I've already said several times that he opposes the penal code, that is not the point, implementation of Sharia even with a more lax penal code would still criminalize apostasy, homosexuality, adultery, premarital sex, and would implement numerous religious and gender based laws of discrimination. All he is opposed to is the strict sentences that are handed down not with the laws themselves.

Then the classroom where the Muslim girls at my school go to pray is also a mosque. I believe RS also gets taught there - hurray for tolerant mosques!

They hold actual Muslim services there? Or rather set aside a room for non-denominational private prayer?

I haven't come across them befgore, so I can't comment.

You've never heard of the Mega Churches?

Here's an article on one of them:

Thoughts on the Mega-Church Vs. The Small Church

Whatever questions I may have been wrestling with, one thing was certain: Briarwood Baptist Church was amazing to behold, a place that would have astounded the ladies from Salt Street Baptist had they ever ventured inside. One of the new breed of mega-churches, it sat on 125 acres of prime real estate, with a sanctuary that could hold nearly 10,000 of its 35,000 members at one time and was often mistaken for the Park Street Mall a mile further down the road. It had theater-seating and huge video screens and often hosted concerts by popular Christian singers. There was a smaller "chapel" which seated only a thousand people; it was reserved for weddings and more intimate gatherings.

But what still amazed me was what had been added to the campus over the past few years. As I walked through the main entrance, I faced a library and a bookstore; to my right was a fully staffed cafeteria. To the left was the food court, consisting of two fast-food chain restaurants and a coffee bar, flanked by a two-screen movie theater. A plethora of meeting rooms branched off the hallway that circled the entire building. An adjacent building held a ten-lane bowling alley, gym, and an Olympic-sized pool; beyond that building were softball and soccer fields, and an impressive football stadium. The older deacons had drawn the line at putting a dome on the stadium: too flashy, they said.

Thoughts on the Mega-Church Vs. The Small Church - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

These things are not community centers, they are the new churches and mosques for the die hard religious nuts, though they open their facilities to non-evangelicals and non-muslims they only do so in order to proselytize in the case of the Evangelicals and to issue Dawa in the case of Muslims.

Agent Ferris · Aug 23, 2010

rivrrat said:
I don't disagree with you inherently, but the city has designated what is ground zero and it's the 16 acre area where the WTC complex used to be. Where ground zero is located is also completely irrelvant IMO.

Well, except for the whole community center part of it that's open to anyone, sure.

Ya so they can receive dawa just like how the Evangelicals allow anyone to come to the Mega Churches so they can proselytize to them. Is it offering religious services for non-Muslim members of the community? If not then it's a Mega-Mosque no different from a Mega-Church.

Agent Ferris · Aug 23, 2010

rivrrat said:
Oh I see. So wherever any dust from the WTC landed is "ground zero"? :lol:

It was not hit by the normal dust and debris it was hit by a significantly large piece of one of the actual planes that hit the towers.

The fact of the matter is, it doesn't ****ing matter if it was right the **** next to the WTC memorial. Doesn't. Matter. I couldn't care less where the **** it is, pretty much how I feel about any building where they worship mythological beings of their choosing. If they have the permits and are doing it legal, why the **** does it matter?

Answer: It doesn't.

So then you would be perfectly fine with building an Orthodox Church in the town of Srebrenica?

rivrrat · Aug 23, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
It was not hit by the normal dust and debris it was hit by a significantly large piece of one of the actual planes that hit the towers.

So then you would be perfectly fine with building an Orthodox Church in the town of Srebrenica?

Can't speak to the laws of that country, but I see no reason why not. Why should it matter?

EnigmaO01 · Aug 23, 2010

jallman said:
Has it ever occurred to you that sarcasm is a fun way to deflect the mindless rantings of certain enigmas?

Ah more subjective thinking. :mrgreen:

jallman said:
However, I also never claimed that the exact location of the building was a subjective thing either. You might want to spend more time paying attention to your level of comprehension and less time trying to play forum psychologist in the future.

Do you have memory problems? Remember when you said this in response to ALL of the points that were made?

jallman said:
Except it was all subjective opinion.

I could say something infantile like "you lose" but I'll refrain as I have no insecurities. I'm just right.

Travelsonic · Aug 23, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
So then you would be perfectly fine with building an Orthodox Church in the town of Srebrenica?

Irrelevant.

Agent Ferris · Aug 23, 2010

rivrrat said:
Can't speak to the laws of that country, but I see no reason why not. Why should it matter?

Um because it's the site where several thousand innocent Muslim men, women and children were murdered by Greek Orthodox soldiers during ethnic war in the former Yugoslavia.

rivrrat · Aug 23, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
Um because it's the site where several thousand innocent Muslim men, women and children were murdered by Greek Orthodox soldiers during ethnic war in the former Yugoslavia.

And......?

Orion · Aug 23, 2010

EnigmaO01 said:
I could say something infantile like "you lose" but I'll refrain as I have no insecurities. I'm just right.

Maybe you should stop trying to convince everyone (including yourself) that you're right, and simply move on. That would be the thing to do if you're truly secure in what you believe. It would be less of a waste of your own energy, and that of others. Just a suggestion.

Agent Ferris · Aug 23, 2010

rivrrat said:
And......?

And you seriously wouldn't question the motivations of people who would propose building an Orthodox Church there?

Agent Ferris · Aug 23, 2010

Travelsonic said:
Irrelevant.

How is that irrelevant? It's a perfect analogy.

rivrrat · Aug 23, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
And you seriously wouldn't question the motivations of people who would propose building an Orthodox Church there?

Why would I? I don't judge all adherents to an entire religion based on a few extremists who call themselves part of said religion. What mythology someone adheres to is irrelevant to me.

In this country, we don't question the "motives" of people who want to build churches, open businesses, open community centers, etc. That's not part of the process. They get permits, they build. Their motives are irrelevant.

EnigmaO01 · Aug 23, 2010

Orion said:
Maybe you should stop trying to convince everyone (including yourself) that you're right, and simply move on. That would be the thing to do if you're truly secure in what you believe. It would be less of a waste of your own energy, and that of others. Just a suggestion.

I've only said I'm right once. The other party has done so numerous times in the thread with infantile comments like, you lose blah blah blah. Perhaps you should pay attention to the context before you butt in with a suggestion?

SgtRock · Aug 23, 2010

rivrrat said:
* outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
* a 500-seat auditorium
* a restaurant and culinary school
* cultural amenities including exhibitions
* education programs
* a library, reading room and art studios
* childcare services
* a church, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
* a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

Yeah, doesn't sound like a mega-church at ALL. :roll:

And its part of ground zero. It's - get this - zero blocks AWAY from it. You can even see ground zero from the building because the building is part of ground zero. Not that it even ****ing matters.

There you go riv, I fixed that for you. btw when did you become a dhimmi? or have you become a muslim. By the looks of your avatar you are well on your way to gaining less importance than live stock, that would be a muslim woman In case you are not familier with the Qu'ran yet.

Agent Ferris · Aug 24, 2010

rivrrat said:
Why would I? I don't judge all adherents to an entire religion based on a few extremists who call themselves part of said religion. What mythology someone adheres to is irrelevant to me.

It's this little emotion called empathy, if you can't understand why building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica would be highly inappropriate then you must be lacking it.

In this country, we don't question the "motives" of people who want to build churches, open businesses, open community centers, etc. That's not part of the process. They get permits, they build. Their motives are irrelevant.

Who is this "we" that doesn't question motives? Why shouldn't we question the motives of this organization exactly?

BmanMcfly · Aug 24, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
It's this little emotion called empathy, if you can't understand why building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica would be highly inappropriate then you must be lacking it.

I do agree that, especially since most people still believe that muslims are solely responsible for 9-11, that it would be distasteful to put a mosque in such a close proximity... but this is the first thing that I've agreed with Obama on, when he said that it's not his issue to interfere.

So, he does have the RIGHT to build it at that location, but there is no reason why the owner should not be willing to, in the name of diplomacy build this center in a place that wouldn't instigate further alienation of americans with the muslim world. Unless this is the intention of the owners, in which case people are taking the bait.

Who is this "we" that doesn't question motives? Why shouldn't we question the motives of this organization exactly?

Here's the distinction : Legally, there's no reason to question their motives... not without any sort of evidence to suggest something wrong... but on a personal level, I do question why they are so insistent on this particular location... it's generating alot of unnecessary tensions.

Edit : But on the same token, if builders simply refuse the work, as it is in the workers rights to decide which projects he will or will not take on, and no contractors will take on the job... well, the owner will be forced into a different location that won't generate such resentment.

Agent Ferris · Aug 24, 2010

BmanMcfly said:
I do agree that, especially since most people still believe that muslims are solely responsible for 9-11, that it would be distasteful to put a mosque in such a close proximity... but this is the first thing that I've agreed with Obama on, when he said that it's not his issue to interfere.

So, he does have the RIGHT to build it at that location, but there is no reason why the owner should not be willing to, in the name of diplomacy build this center in a place that wouldn't instigate further alienation of americans with the muslim world. Unless this is the intention of the owners, in which case people are taking the bait.

Yes he clearly has the right to build the Mosque, I don't think anyone is questioning that right we are questioning why there? It's not that all Muslims are responsible for 9-11 but aside from putting up the Mosque itself there is good reason to question this guys motivations considering his past statements.

Here's the distinction : Legally, there's no reason to question their motives... not without any sort of evidence to suggest something wrong... but on a personal level, I do question why they are so insistent on this particular location... it's generating alot of unnecessary tensions.

Edit : But on the same token, if builders simply refuse the work, as it is in the workers rights to decide which projects he will or will not take on, and no contractors will take on the job... well, the owner will be forced into a different location that won't generate such resentment.

The state has no right to intervene and I would be more opposed to state intervention than to the building of the Mosque itself, but I am adamantly opposed to the building of the Mosque and will exercise my own rights to try and stop it from getting built, that's how it works in a free society, you don't counter the negative use of liberty with cracking down on liberty, you counter it with more liberty.

rivrrat · Aug 24, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
It's this little emotion called empathy, if you can't understand why building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica would be highly inappropriate then you must be lacking it.

Again, I don't judge all adherents to an entire religion based on a few extremists who call themselves part of said religion. The events of Srebrenica and the events of 9/11 are completely and totally separate from the building of some house of worship.

Who is this "we" that doesn't question motives? Why shouldn't we question the motives of this organization exactly?

So, any time a church or other house of mythology worship, or any building, house, etc tries to get the permits to build, we question their motives? That's part of the process of building something? Is there a government form for the "motives" or is it just verbal exchange?

jallman · Aug 24, 2010

iangb said:
That's not a reason to call it a mosque, though. It has far more purposes than Islam-related ones.

Like I said, it's all subjective. However, one thing that cannot be disputed, by the very sources cited to dispel this simple fact, is that a significant portion of the center is dedicated prayer space. Mince it any way you want but the fact is, the majority of the space is dedicated to being a house of worship. :shrug:

jallman · Aug 24, 2010

EnigmaO01 said:
Ah more subjective thinking. :mrgreen:

Umm, yeah. So since you can recognize subjectivity versus objectivity, why are you having such a hard time with the rest it?

Do you have memory problems? Remember when you said this in response to ALL of the points that were made?

Yes I do, and I stand by that. You've yet to show any objectivity at all.

I could say something infantile like "you lose" but I'll refrain as I have no insecurities. I'm just right.

I could say something truthful and objective about how the need for psychiatric meds in certain posters but I'll refrain just out of politeness. I'm just chuckling to myself at your absurdity.

jallman · Aug 24, 2010

EnigmaO01 said:
I've only said I'm right once. The other party has done so numerous times in the thread with infantile comments like, you lose blah blah blah. Perhaps you should pay attention to the context before you butt in with a suggestion?

Oh so now we're gonna go really subjective and cross over into blatant lying and dishonesty...

No surprise there, chuckles.

The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

Agent Ferris

iangb

Lurker

Hoplite

Technomancer

Hoplite

Technomancer

Agent Ferris

Agent Ferris

Agent Ferris

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon

EnigmaO01

Travelsonic

Agent Ferris

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon

Orion

Agent Ferris

Agent Ferris

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon

EnigmaO01

SgtRock

Cancel Cancel Culture and Woke Supremacy

Agent Ferris

BmanMcfly

Agent Ferris

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon

jallman

jallman

jallman