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The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

It is all waffle, when an unemployed worker is presented with the offer of a well paid job, principles go out the door.
 
It sounds like anti-liberty to me.

Are you saying "liberty" is forcing private citizens to do work for other private citizens if they don't want to?
 
Then they are not good muslims. Islam by definition means submission. Muslims must submit totally to Allah. Unlike christianity muslims do not get to choose which parts of the Qu'ran to disregard. If they do they are not muslims at all.

I have heard that exact same argument used against Christians when they have disagreements with other Christians...
 
So many people taking so much joy in disallowing American citizens from enacting their protected civil rights.

#1 - It's 2 blocks from Ground Zero - so it's not a "Ground Zero Mosque".

#2 - It's an Islamic Community Center that include - along with prayer space - a basketball court, a theater, and is open to the entire public. Thus, it is not only NOT a "Ground Zero Mosque" because it's not at Ground Zero, it's also not even a Mosque - no more than St. Mary's Hospital is a Church because it has a chapel in it.

#3 - This is a yet another instance of Conservatives (and wimpy a-holes like Harry Reid) reveling in the restriction of someone's rights. Gotta take away the rights of gays in California to marry; gotta prevent Muslims from building a Community Center; gotta take citizenship rights away from immigrants.

The only threat to freedom I see comes from the likes of Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, and their supporters.

If you are against this, then you are in favor of any group preventing the construction of any building on private land anywhere simply because they might take offense to it. Go ahead. Open that can of worms.

It will very likely get built and there will be people who will build it - in a down economy (especially for construction workers), intelligent beings will take the money.


Good ol' filmfest guy. There you go throwing the facts in to the argument ruining everything.:lamo
 
Except it was all subjective opinion. :shrug:

Oh really? So the following are subjective opinon? if you trully believe that, you need to get out a dictionary and look up the word subjective.


#1 - It's 2 blocks from Ground Zero - so it's not a "Ground Zero Mosque".

#2 - It's an Islamic Community Center that include - along with prayer space - a basketball court, a theater, and is open to the entire public. Thus, it is not only NOT a "Ground Zero Mosque" because it's not at Ground Zero, it's also not even a Mosque - no more than St. Mary's Hospital is a Church because it has a chapel in it.
 
Oh really? So the following are subjective opinon? if you trully believe that, you need to get out a dictionary and look up the word subjective.

Two blocks being a subjective distance designation for it to be in a location or not.

The amount of dedicated prayer space it takes to be a mosque or not--entirely subjective measure.

Maybe you need to be busting out that dictionary yourself there, chuckles.

Thanks for playing though.
 
Two blocks being a subjective distance designation for it to be in a location or not.

The amount of dedicated prayer space it takes to be a mosque or not--entirely subjective measure.

Maybe you need to be busting out that dictionary yourself there, chuckles.

Thanks for playing though.

Riiiiiiight! So according to you if I give a latitude; longitude that would be subjective too. You probably think calculus is subjective? :lamo

I was hoping this site would be a challenge but so far all I'm seeing is people calling black white, and then when you prove to them it's not, they say you lose are something! Kind of reminds me of the fifth grade. :lamo
 
Riiiiiiight!

I know I am correct on this. Thank you for your quick concession.

The remainder of your post was just idiotic sputtering and blathering with appeals to the absurd. As such, I simply disregard it.
 
You are entitled to your opinion of the man. I personally don't know enough about him to say, but based on his actions I don't really have a problem with him.
Indeed.

I've been doing a little research on the basis that I knew nothing more than what the anti-mosque people have been saying, and my opinion of Rauf is rising with everything I find. He wrote a book called "What's right with Islam" - you can read an excerpt from it here. In it, he argues that Armerica best represents "Islam's true values", refers to "the waging of peace" as the greatest Jihad, argues that the 9/11 bombers were breaking Sharia law and that Muslim troops in the US army are justified in fighting against other Muslims, and argues for a pluralistic, multi-religious society. To quote directly from the book: "We strive for... a time when Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all other faith traditions will live together in peace, enjoying a renewed vision of what the good society can look like. In this good society all religious voices are welcome and given maximum freedom, and no one religion (or even atheism) is allowed to inhibit any other. Towards this dream we aspire"

But noooooooooo, it's a 'victory mosque' and he's an anti-American Islamist, because some right-wing bloggers have quotemined him and you shouldn't question something that which confirms your own biases. Seriously?
 
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I know I am correct on this. Thank you for your quick concession.

Has it ever occurred to you that if you have to keep telling yourself you've won you must be insecure, not to mention you lack a grasp on reality?

The remainder of your post was just idiotic sputtering and blathering with appeals to the absurd. As such, I simply disregard it.

Now that is subjective! Not the location of a building!
 
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Has it ever occurred to you that if you have to keep telling yourself you've won you must be insecure, not to mention you lack a grasp on reality?

Has it ever occurred to you that sarcasm is a fun way to deflect the mindless rantings of certain enigmas?

Now that is subjective! Not the location of a building!

Never claimed it wasn't subjective. However, I also never claimed that the exact location of the building was a subjective thing either. You might want to spend more time paying attention to your level of comprehension and less time trying to play forum psychologist in the future.
 
Oh really? So the following are subjective opinon? if you trully believe that, you need to get out a dictionary and look up the word subjective.

No those are both just out and out lies.

The building IS ground zero, it was struck by a huge piece of one of the actual planes that hit the towers.

This is not a Community Center. They will not be offering religious services for any non-Muslim members of the community, they will be offering religious services to only Muslims, non-Muslims will be allowed entry the same as anyother Mosque so that they may receive Dawa.

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

It's literally the textbook defintion of a Mosque.

This is a community center like Evangelical Mega-Churches are community centers.
 
No those are both just out and out lies.

The building IS ground zero, it was struck by a huge piece of one of the actual planes that hit the towers.

This is not a Community Center. They will not be offering religious services for any non-Muslim members of the community, they will be offering religious services to only Muslims, non-Muslims will be allowed entry the same as anyother Mosque so that they may receive Dawa.

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

It's literally the textbook defintion of a Mosque.

This is a community center like Evangelical Mega-Churches are community centers.

* outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
* a 500-seat auditorium
* a restaurant and culinary school
* cultural amenities including exhibitions
* education programs
* a library, reading room and art studios
* childcare services
* a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
* a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

Yeah, doesn't sound like a community center at ALL. :roll:

And two blocks away is NOT ground zero. It's - get this - two blocks AWAY from it. ;) You can't even see ground zero from the building. Not that it even ****ing matters.
 
No those are both just out and out lies.

The building IS ground zero, it was struck by a huge piece of one of the actual planes that hit the towers.

This is not a Community Center. They will not be offering religious services for any non-Muslim members of the community, they will be offering religious services to only Muslims, non-Muslims will be allowed entry the same as anyother Mosque so that they may receive Dawa.

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

It's literally the textbook defintion of a Mosque.

This is a community center like Evangelical Mega-Churches are community centers.
The aim of the building as a whole is not 'Muslim worship'. It will have an area within it for Muslim worship, but that's it - and to call anywhere with a prayer room a 'mosque' is outright dishonest - for example, many schools in the UK have a prayer room. To quote: "The facility's design includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11th memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people.[7][8]"

Actually, that sounds quite a lot like the various buildings at the University I went to. I never knew I was at a mosque all that time...

EDIT: Dammit, beaten by rivarrt. *fist-shakey*
 
* outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
* a 500-seat auditorium
* a restaurant and culinary school
* cultural amenities including exhibitions
* education programs
* a library, reading room and art studios
* childcare services
* a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
* a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

Yeah, doesn't sound like a community center at ALL. :roll:

And two blocks away is NOT ground zero. It's - get this - two blocks AWAY from it. ;) You can't even see ground zero from the building. Not that it even ****ing matters.

Actually, Ground Zero itself is a subjective designation. The site of the old WTC is a 16 acre area with specific boundaries but the term Ground Zero isn't restricted by objective boundaries. Two blocks is not far enough away to reasonably state that it isn't the ground zero area. Two blocks from what, exactly?
 
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Indeed.

I've been doing a little research on the basis that I knew nothing more than what the anti-mosque people have been saying, and my opinion of Rauf is rising with everything I find. He wrote a book called "What's right with Islam" - you can read an excerpt from it here. In it, he argues that Armerica best represents "Islam's true values", refers to "the waging of peace" as the greatest Jihad, argues that the 9/11 bombers were breaking Sharia law and that Muslim troops in the US army are justified in fighting against other Muslims, and argues for a pluralistic, multi-religious society. To quote directly from the book: "We strive for... a time when Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all other faith traditions will live together in peace, enjoying a renewed vision of what the good society can look like. In this good society all religious voices are welcome and given maximum freedom, and no one religion (or even atheism) is allowed to inhibit any other. Towards this dream we aspire"

But noooooooooo, it's a 'victory mosque' and he's an anti-American Islamist, because some right-wing bloggers have quotemined him and you shouldn't question something that which confirms your own biases. Seriously?

lol this guy says that the U.S. has more blood on its hands than Al Qaeda, that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11, that OBL was made in the USA, refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, and advocates Sharia law.
 
The aim of the building as a whole is not 'Muslim worship'. It will have an area within it for Muslim worship, but that's it - and to call anywhere with a prayer room a 'mosque' is outright dishonest - for example, many schools in the UK have a prayer room. To quote: "The facility's design includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11th memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people.[7][8]"

Actually, that sounds quite a lot like the various buildings at the University I went to. I never knew I was at a mosque all that time...

EDIT: Dammit, beaten by rivarrt. *fist-shakey*

Will they be offering religious services to other members of the community? Non-Muslims will be allowed in so that they may receive Dawa the same as any other Mosque.
 
The aim of the building as a whole is not 'Muslim worship'. It will have an area within it for Muslim worship, but that's it - and to call anywhere with a prayer room a 'mosque' is outright dishonest - for example, many schools in the UK have a prayer room. To quote: "The facility's design includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11th memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people.[7][8]"

Actually, that sounds quite a lot like the various buildings at the University I went to. I never knew I was at a mosque all that time...

EDIT: Dammit, beaten by rivarrt. *fist-shakey*

So wait...the prayer space is nearly 4 times that of the auditorium and you don't see how some people might view the function of the building to be more mosque oriented than community center oriented?
 
* outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
* a 500-seat auditorium
* a restaurant and culinary school
* cultural amenities including exhibitions
* education programs
* a library, reading room and art studios
* childcare services
* a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
* a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

Yeah, doesn't sound like a community center at ALL. :roll:

No it doesn't, will they be offering religious services for other members of the community? This is a community center like Evangelical Mega-Churches with similar facilities are community centers IE they're not.

And two blocks away is NOT ground zero. It's - get this - two blocks AWAY from it. ;) You can't even see ground zero from the building. Not that it even ****ing matters.

English not your first language? This building is ground zero, it was struck by a huge piece of landing gear from one of the planes that struck the towers. That's ground zero by any reasonable definition of ground zero.
 
The 911 Hard Hat Pledge


Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, in addition to the various proposals for gay bars and bacon street vending at the mosque, lets have some old fashioned picket lines, too.

Sounds like more fear and ignorance.

And sounds like you don't know how things work in NYC. They won't have a problem finding workers.

And security to watch the job site.
 
lol this guy says that the U.S. has more blood on its hands than Al Qaeda, that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11, that OBL was made in the USA, refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, and advocates Sharia law.
Whereas I've just given you a quote where he directly calls for a pluralistic, tolerant society, and evidence that he condemnes the 9/11 bombers.

With regards to the claims themselves, the first is undeniably true, the second and third are dubious but just about passable depending on the context, the fourth is understandable and the fifth is so widely interpretable that without further context it's irrlevant.

I'm sure you can cite all of these, of course?

Agent Ferris said:
Will they be offering religious services to other members of the community? Non-Muslims will be allowed in so that they may receive Dawa the same as any other Mosque.
Why does this make something 'not a mosque'? It's an Islamic community centre - in other words, it's biased. That doesn't stop it being a community centre, though - it doesn't prevent non-Muslims from benefitting from the rest of it.

Jallman said:
So wait...the prayer space is nearly 4 times that of the auditorium and you don't see how some people might view the function of the building to be more mosque oriented than community center oriented?
That's not a reason to call it a mosque, though. It has far more purposes than Islam-related ones.
 
[citation needed]

Glossary of Names and Terms
Glossary of Islamic Terms

What proof do you have?
Ground Zero, if you ask the common person, is a SPECIFIC spot on or next to which this project is not.

Excuse me? Are you suggesting that if asked a person wouldn't consider a building struck by the landing gear of one of the planes to be ground zero? By any reasonable definition of the term that's ground zero, ground zero is not just the exact two craters where the towers stood it includes significant amount of property surrounding it as well.

Ever think that debris... travels? Debris was found a great distance from the respective crash sites, yet that doesn't magically make that place the crash site itself.

It's a total of two blocks away from the remnants of the towers, it's ground zero.

If they are really dedicated, they will find a way to get what they need.
So basically, you have no proof at all?

We, likewise have the numerous whacked out statements of the Imam, this guy says that the U.S. has more blood on its hands than Al Qaeda, that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11, that OBL was made in the USA, refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, and advocates Sharia law.

Can we stick to analogies and questions relevant to AMERICA since this is going on in AMERICA and not thousands of miles away in a different country with different values?

No I will not stick to America, if you support building this Mosque at Ground Zero then you must support building an Orthodox Cathedral at Srebrenica. Or do you only support freedom of religion and property rights when it suits you?

A country thousands of miles away with different cultural values etc should NEVER be used as a proxy to determine who gets rights in America and who doesn't. Our constitution/bill of rights is.

lol oh I see only Americans should be expected to abide by religious freedom and property rights, not other countries, they get a free pass. :roll:

Fine would you support building an Army Memorial at Wounded Knee?
 
Actually, Ground Zero itself is a subjective designation. The site of the old WTC is a 16 acre area with specific boundaries but the term Ground Zero isn't restricted by objective boundaries. Two blocks is not far enough away to reasonably state that it isn't the ground zero area. Two blocks from what, exactly?

I don't disagree with you inherently, but the city has designated what is ground zero and it's the 16 acre area where the WTC complex used to be. Where ground zero is located is also completely irrelvant IMO.

No it doesn't, will they be offering religious services for other members of the community? This is a community center like Evangelical Mega-Churches with similar facilities are community centers IE they're not.
Well, except for the whole community center part of it that's open to anyone, sure.


English not your first language? This building is ground zero,
Says who?

it was struck by a huge piece of landing gear from one of the planes that struck the towers. That's ground zero by any reasonable definition of ground zero.

Oh I see. So wherever any dust from the WTC landed is "ground zero"? :lol:

The fact of the matter is, it doesn't ****ing matter if it was right the **** next to the WTC memorial. Doesn't. Matter. I couldn't care less where the **** it is, pretty much how I feel about any building where they worship mythological beings of their choosing. If they have the permits and are doing it legal, why the **** does it matter?

Answer: It doesn't.
 
Meanwhile, as the USA builds billion-dollar fortresses in Iraq and Afghanistan - the latest Muslim countries to be blown to pieces by its military or Israel's - ordinary rightwing Americans worry about a mosque.

(Has anyone outside of the teabagging community actually called it a "victory mosque?")
 
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