The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

Hoplite said:
So ****ing what? Runways around the world were touched by the landing gear of the planes, are THEY Ground Zero now?

They were launched from the wreckage and planted themselves in the building. The building is a part of Ground Zero in the strictest sense.

Do you even know what "Islamist" even means? WITHOUT looking it up?

Political Islam, this man supports a Sharia compliant U.S. in which secular laws do not contradict the Koran or the Hadiths. He is an overt Islamist.

You have Muslims who want to build a mosque and community center, why is this such shocking news?

No we have an Islamist who said that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11 and that OBL was made in the USA less than 3 weeks after 9-11, who refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, who wants to have a sharia compliant US, and who is now building a Mega-Mosque at Ground Zero.

I mean nothing odd going on here huh?

Would you support building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica?

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

iangb said:
No, the definition of an Islamist you've been using is one who sees "every dead American as a victory".

No radical Islamists believe that not every Islamist.

I have no issue with people who simply want Sharia Law - I disagree with them, but that's no reason to take issue with them personally; after all, I disagree with a lot of people online all the time, a lot of whom I respect even while I'm disagree with them.

You don't take issue with people suggesting that implementing theocratic governance would be a good thing? It's not a simple matter of disagreement here. It's secularism and liberty on the one hand and theocracy and tyranny on the other.

I do have an issue with anyone who considers violence as a method of spreading their viewpoint, whatever that may be - be it Sharia Law or Veganism. But I have seen no evidence that this Iman meets that standard.

Neither have I, he supports implementing theocracy graudually through non-violent means.

But more importantly, it's a community centre. It's not 'Iman Steve's Sharia-Spreading Shack', or 'Iman Tims Terrorist Training Terraces' (I can't remember his name off-hand, so I turned to alliteration again).

It's not a ****ing community center, when will they be offering religious services for non-Muslim members of the community? In fact he has stated that one of the main purposes of this Mosque is to issue Dawa to non-Muslims.

Even not giving it silly names, it's not 'Iman X's mosque', for his personal use only, representing to the greater world nothing more than what he wishes (even if his stated wishes so far have been no more threatening that "to encourage peace between nations and religions").

The only people calling it a 'victory mosque' are those who oppose it. You're falling foul of your own propoganda, nothing more.

:roll: Ya as if you can't protest the building of a Pat Robertson mega-church without protesting all Christianity or even all Christians who might attend that church.

Hoplite · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
They were launched from the wreckage and planted themselves in the building. The building is a part of Ground Zero in the strictest sense.

So, by that logic, every building hit by debris is defacto "ground zero"?

Ok, so what about a building in Lower Manhattan that WASN'T hit by debris? Is THAT still ground zero? And does that mean that ANY building hit by ANY debris is sacred? Or is it JUST certain kinds of debris?

Do you see how stupid this is?

Political Islam, this man supports a Sharia compliant U.S. in which secular laws do not contradict the Koran or the Hadiths. He is an overt Islamist.

Islamism is simply the belief that Islam is more than just a religious system and that it can also be a political system.There is very little agreement of what it ACTUALLY means, even among the Muslim community.

No we have an Islamist who said that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11 and that OBL was made in the USA less than 3 weeks after 9-11, who refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, who wants to have a sharia compliant US, and who is now building a Mega-Mosque at Ground Zero.

So what? It's not his job to condemn everyone to satisfy you.

Would you support building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica?

This is a very dumb comparison on several fronts.

1. Srebrenica is in Bosnia & Herzogovina, not the US.
2. The Srebrenica Massacre was carried out by the VRS, not a terrorist group.

Orion · Aug 22, 2010

What's going to happen is... the community centre is going to get built, morons who think they are fighting the eeebil eebil islam are going to try trashing the place, and NYC is going to have to post police forces there to enforce the centre's right to exist.

This is what you conservative radicals aren't getting. They have the freedom to do it and they're going to do it. You have no right to stop them, and your petty racist anecdotes about how all Muslims consent to terrorism is just going to turn the public against you.

Please keep running your mouth. Eventually someone will stomp their foot in it. :2wave:

iangb · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
No radical Islamists believe that not every Islamist.

So you agree that the Imam isn't even a 'Radical Islamist' than?

You don't take issue with people suggesting that implementing theocratic governance would be a good thing? It's not a simple matter of disagreement here. It's secularism and liberty on the one hand and theocracy and tyranny on the other.

I argue against them, but I don't try and silence them. I'm suprosed no-ones mis-quoted Voltaire yet - "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it".

Neither have I, he supports implementing theocracy graudually through non-violent means.

Good for him! He'll fail, no-one will die, kittens and candy will fall from the sky, etc...

I have no problem with people saying something, no matter what they want to say. If it incites violence, get rid of it quick, but if it doesn't? I'm secure enough in my own arguments not to be overly worried.

It's not a ****ing community center, when will they be offering religious services for non-Muslim members of the community? In fact he has stated that one of the main purposes of this Mosque is to issue Dawa to non-Muslims.

Park 51 originally named Cordoba House and sometimes controversially[5] referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque", is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center and mosque.[6]

I'm not a Christian, but I go to church with my familly at Christmas and have a fairly good time - and the church is just a church.

:roll: Ya as if you can't protest the building of a Pat Robertson mega-church without protesting all Christianity or even all Christians who might attend that church.

Do you regularly argue against Pat Robertson churches, as well?

I wouldn't.

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

iangb said:
So you agree that the Imam isn't even a 'Radical Islamist' than?

I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe he supports violence to obtain his goal, however, as an Islamist he is still part of the problem, the solution to radical Islamism is not more Islamism it's secularism.

I argue against them, but I don't try and silence them. I'm suprosed no-ones mis-quoted Voltaire yet - "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it".

I have continuously said that he has the right to build his Mosque but that does not supersede my right to protest against it nor my right to encourage others not to enter into voluntary contracts to trade their labour for capital in order to build it.

Good for him! He'll fail, no-one will die, kittens and candy will fall from the sky, etc...

I have no problem with people saying something, no matter what they want to say. If it incites violence, get rid of it quick, but if it doesn't? I'm secure enough in my own arguments not to be overly worried.

The Islamist ideology directly leads to Islamist terrorism. Without the former we would not have the latter.

Park 51 originally named Cordoba House and sometimes controversially[5] referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque", is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center and mosque.[6]

"...Islamic community center...", if it was just a community center and not a Mosque when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?

I'm not a Christian, but I go to church with my familly at Christmas and have a fairly good time - and the church is just a church.

Do you regularly argue against Pat Robertson churches, as well?

I regularly argue against pretty much anything Pat Robertson says or does.

Orion · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe he supports violence to obtain his goal, however, as an Islamist he is still part of the problem, the solution to radical Islamism is not more Islamism it's secularism.

There is no proof that the Imam is a radical Islamist.

Agent Ferris said:
"...Islamic community center...", if it was just a community center and not a Mosque when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?

If it's just a community centre and not a church, then when will the Young Men's Christian Association offer religious services to non-Christian members?

See how that works?

You are grasping at straws here.

Agent Ferris said:
I regularly argue against pretty much anything Pat Robertson says or does.

Yet the things you say against the community centre in NYC mirror the things he says almost to a tee.

You really are a tiresome debater Agent Ferris. Like so many others, you take statements, act like they are facts, and then extrapolate these complicated arguments based on a false premise. Learn to separate religion from politics, and maybe people will take you seriously.

Even if this community centre were about to become the epicentre of a victory celibration, or a hot bed for terrorism, I'm sure the FBI and CIA are already all over it. Your offense at imaginary evils is irrelevant to their right to build it. In fact, I think if people start attacking this community centre or vandalizing it, it will only make them look like the very vigilantes they believe they are trying to stop.

iangb · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe he supports violence to obtain his goal, however, as an Islamist he is still part of the problem, the solution to radical Islamism is not more Islamism it's secularism.

Who is a radical Islamist more likely to listen to on matters of faith - a moderate Islamist or a secular atheist?

Evolution > Revolution

I have continuously said that he has the right to build his Mosque but that does not supersede my right to protest against it nor my right to encourage others not to enter into voluntary contracts to trade their labour for capital in order to build it.

You tread a fine line. It's not unconstitutional for you to campaign against it, but it would certainly be dishonest for you to campaign for banning it.

The Islamist ideology directly leads to Islamist terrorism. Without the former we would not have the latter.

Exactly the same could be said about Christianity.

"...Islamic community center...", if it was just a community center and not a Mosque when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?

I never said it was "just a community center and not a Mosque" - I said it was a community centre; I assumed you knew that it was also a mosque.
It's both.

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

Hoplite said:
So, by that logic, every building hit by debris is defacto "ground zero"?

It wasn't simply hit by small chunks of debris it was actually hit by a large piece of the actual plane that hit the building.

Ok, so what about a building in Lower Manhattan that WASN'T hit by debris? Is THAT still ground zero? And does that mean that ANY building hit by ANY debris is sacred? Or is it JUST certain kinds of debris?

Do you see how stupid this is?

It wasn't hit by simple falling rubble it was hit by actual landing gear from one of the planes.

Islamism is simply the belief that Islam is more than just a religious system and that it can also be a political system.There is very little agreement of what it ACTUALLY means, even among the Muslim community.

Islamism is political Islam, by supporting Sharia law he is an Islamist rather than a secular Muslim.

So what? It's not his job to condemn everyone to satisfy you.

lol, if you repeatedly refuse to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization then you are either ignorant or have a pro-Jihadist agenda.

This is a very dumb comparison on several fronts.

1. Srebrenica is in Bosnia & Herzogovina, not the US.

What does geography have to do with it?

2. The Srebrenica Massacre was carried out by the VRS, not a terrorist group.

What does the typology of organization which committed the massacre have to do with anything?

Would you support an Orthodox Church built in the town of Srebrenica? If not then why not?

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

Orion said:
There is no proof that the Imam is a radical Islamist.

He is certainly an Islamist albeit one who doesn't support violence to achieve his goals, but the goals are the same. It's a difference of degree not of kind.

If it's just a community centre and not a church, then when will the Young Men's Christian Association offer religious services to non-Christian members?

See how that works?

I wasn't aware that the YMCA offered religious services. What type of mass does the YMCA hold?

You are grasping at straws here.

No that would be you. This is not a community center it is a Mosque, it will be offering religious services for Muslims but not for non-Muslim members of the community, it's a Mosque.

Yet the things you say against the community centre in NYC mirror the things he says almost to a tee.

Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that Pat Robertson was a large advocate against theocratic theocracy in general.

You really are a tiresome debater Agent Ferris. Like so many others, you take statements, act like they are facts, and then extrapolate these complicated arguments based on a false premise.

Click to expand...

Every statement I have made is a fact or a logical conclusion based on the facts.

Learn to separate religion from politics, and maybe people will take you seriously.

Click to expand...

lol, this man supports Sharia law he does not separate the political from the religious, as an Islamist for him they are one in the same.

Even if this community centre were about to become the epicentre of a victory celibration, or a hot bed for terrorism, I'm sure the FBI and CIA are already all over it. Your offense at imaginary evils is irrelevant to their right to build it.

Click to expand...

They have a right to build it, I have the right to protest it and encourage others not to enter into voluntary contracts with the Mosque propenents to trade their labour for their capital. They have the right to build it, they do not have the right to silence the opposition or compel others against their will to build it.

so that In fact, I think if people start attacking this community centre or vandalizing it, it will only make them look like the very vigilantes they believe they are trying to stop.

Click to expand...

It's not a ****ing community center it's a Mosque, if it was a community center when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

Orion said:
This is what you conservative radicals aren't getting. They have the freedom to do it and they're going to do it. You have no right to stop them, and your petty racist anecdotes about how all Muslims consent to terrorism is just going to turn the public against you.

What you don't understand is that Islam isn't a race it's an ideology.

Please keep running your mouth. Eventually someone will stomp their foot in it. :2wave:

Understood you support physical violence to silence the opposition. If anyone tries putting hands on me or a "foot in my mouth" for exercising my 1st amendment rights I will put a bullet in their brain.

Orion · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
He is certainly an Islamist albeit one who doesn't support violence to achieve his goals, but the goals are the same. It's a difference of degree not of kind.

An Islamist is simply one who is a scholar of Islam. I said radical Islamist. Big difference.

Agent Ferris said:
I wasn't aware that the YMCA offered religious services. What type of mass does the YMCA hold?

Missed my point entirely.

Agent Ferris said:
No that would be you. This is not a community center it is a Mosque, it will be offering religious services for Muslims but not for non-Muslim members of the community, it's a Mosque.

Nah it's a community centre... a mosque is for Muslims only. This place is for everyone, in the spirit of interfaith relations. It is obviously going to have religious services if the people who own the place are Muslim and they have to pray 5 times a day. Duh.

Agent Ferris said:
I wasn't aware that Pat Robertson was a large advocate against theocratic theocracy in general.

Is that supposed to change the fact that you sound just like him?

Agent Ferris said:
Every statement I have made is a fact or a logical conclusion based on the facts.

Most of your statements are emotional appeals based on exaggerated details. You're making mountains out of molehills. I'm just one of few people who are actually willing to spend the time to tell you this. Most others have abandoned this thread.

Agent Ferris said:
lol, this man supports Sharia law he does not separate the political from the religious, as an Islamist for him they are one in the same.

Link to where he said he supports Sharia Law?

Agent Ferris said:
They have a right to build it, I have the right to protest it and encourage others not to enter into voluntary contracts with the Mosque propenents to trade their labour for their capital. They have the right to build it, they do not have the right to silence the opposition or compel others against their will to build it.

Of course you have the right. You have the right to speak no matter how misinformed.

Agent Ferris said:
It's not a ****ing community center it's a Mosque, if it was a community center when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?

This has already been addressed. Maybe you should try visiting a real mosque before you make assumptions about what a mosque is. Oh that's right, most of them won't let you in because you're non-Muslim. Maybe now you understand the difference.

It's the difference between having prayer services (like a chapel) in one part of the building versus making the entire building a place for prayer. Obviously they are going to insert a religious component into the community centre if they are Muslim... they want to support their faith. Christians do it all the time. Why do you think there are chapels in hospitals?

Calling it a mosque reveals your naivete. I know you'll keep calling it the "ground zero mosque" because that's all part of the talk radio buzz, but no matter how much you try to spin it, it will never be the case. You can say it over and over again but it won't ever be true.

FilmFestGuy · Aug 22, 2010

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html

Okay, just discovering this: this was made public last year. AND this:

Laura Ingraham (as guest host on Bill O'Reilly) said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7WbTv_gsx4

"I can't find many people who really have a problem with it...I like what you're trying to do." (She now says it's "proof the terrorists have won".)

And this timeline shows how it was essentially turned from mild controversy to national firestorm by The New York Post, a virulently anti-Muslim group, and eventually Fox News.

Hmm...Nothing said in December at all when it was made public (on a Front Page NYT story). Indeed, Khan appears on Fox News with Laura Ingraham who says she likes what is happening.

Then it's ignored until May when a newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch, a network owned by Rupert Murdoch, and a known anti-Muslim group suddenly find it lucrative to preach their anti-Muslim fervor.

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

Orion said:
An Islamist is simply one who is a scholar of Islam. I said radical Islamist. Big difference.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about, an Islamism is political Islam IE non-secular Islam promoting implementation of Sharia Law, and adherent of Islamism is referred to as an Islamist. This Imam is an Islamist.

Missed my point entirely.

Then what is your point? The YMCA is not a church because it does not offer religious services, they do not hold mass at the YMCA.

Nah it's a community centre... a mosque is for Muslims only. This place is for everyone, in the spirit of interfaith relations. It is obviously going to have religious services if the people who own the place are Muslim and they have to pray 5 times a day. Duh.

lol, this Mosque holds religious services for Muslims and only Muslims, Mosques do allow non-Muslims to attend so that they may receive Dawa.

Is that supposed to change the fact that you sound just like him?

How do I sound just like him? If I sound just like him then he must be stating facts, because that's all I have done.

Most of your statements are emotional appeals based on exaggerated details. You're making mountains out of molehills. I'm just one of few people who are actually willing to spend the time to tell you this. Most others have abandoned this thread.

Most of your statements only go to prove your ignorance on the subject matter.

Link to where he said he supports Sharia Law?

Here you go:

At the core of Shariah law are God's commandments, revealed in the Old Testament and revised in the New Testament and the Quran. The principles behind American secular law are similar to Shariah law - that we protect life, liberty and property, that we provide for the common welfare, that we maintain a certain amount of modesty. What Muslims want is to ensure that their secular laws are not in conflict with the Quran or the Hadith, the sayings of Muhammad.

On Faith Panelists Blog: How Islamic Law Can Work - Feisal Abdul Rauf

Of course you have the right. You have the right to speak no matter how misinformed.

Just what am I misinformed about?

This has already been addressed. Maybe you should try visiting a real mosque before you make assumptions about what a mosque is. Oh that's right, most of them won't let you in because you're non-Muslim. Maybe now you understand the difference.

Actually they will let me in to receive Dawa which is the reason why allowing non-Muslims into this Mosque.

It's the difference between having prayer services (like a chapel) in one part of the building versus making the entire building a place for prayer. Obviously they are going to insert a religious component into the community centre if they are Muslim... they want to support their faith. Christians do it all the time. Why do you think there are chapels in hospitals?

Chapels in hospitals do not hold masses. Chapels in hospitals are non-denominational unless the hospitals themselves are of a particular religion. This is a Mosque which doubles as an Islamic Community Center open to non-Muslims so that they might receive Dawa, if it was an actual community center then they would either be a) not offering religious services, or b) offering religious services to all members of the community.

Calling it a mosque reveals your naivete. I know you'll keep calling it the "ground zero mosque" because that's all part of the talk radio buzz, but no matter how much you try to spin it, it will never be the case. You can say it over and over again but it won't ever be true.

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

FilmFestGuy · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
You don't have a clue what you're talking about, an Islamism is political Islam IE non-secular Islam promoting implementation of Sharia Law, and adherent of Islamism is referred to as an Islamist. This Imam is an Islamist.

Then what is your point? The YMCA is not a church because it does not offer religious services, they do not hold mass at the YMCA.

lol, this Mosque holds religious services for Muslims and only Muslims, Mosques do allow non-Muslims to attend so that they may receive Dawa.

How do I sound just like him? If I sound just like him then he must be stating facts, because that's all I have done.

Most of your statements only go to prove your ignorance on the subject matter.

Here you go:

Just what am I misinformed about?

Actually they will let me in to receive Dawa which is the reason why allowing non-Muslims into this Mosque.

Chapels in hospitals do not hold masses. Chapels in hospitals are non-denominational unless the hospitals themselves are of a particular religion. This is a Mosque which doubles as an Islamic Community Center open to non-Muslims so that they might receive Dawa, if it was an actual community center then they would either be a) not offering religious services, or b) offering religious services to all members of the community.

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

I sincerely question your reading comprehension ability. Clearly the article you're quoting is about how to CHANGE Sharia law.

Seriously.

My God, man.

F'ing ridiculous. But I don't blame you. I blame whatever conspiracy-laden websites you read.

Orion · Aug 22, 2010

FilmFestGuy said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html

Okay, just discovering this: this was made public last year. AND this:

Laura Ingraham (as guest host on Bill O'Reilly) said:

YouTube - New Islamic Mosque at Ground Zero? (12.21.09)

"I can't find many people who really have a problem with it...I like what you're trying to do." (She now says it's "proof the terrorists have won".)

And this timeline shows how it was essentially turned from mild controversy to national firestorm by The New York Post, a virulently anti-Muslim group, and eventually Fox News.

Hmm...Nothing said in December at all when it was made public (on a Front Page NYT story). Indeed, Khan appears on Fox News with Laura Ingraham who says she likes what is happening.

Then it's ignored until May when a newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch, a network owned by Rupert Murdoch, and a known anti-Muslim group suddenly find it lucrative to preach their anti-Muslim fervor.

This is the gist of it really. People care only when they are told to care, and to find out who is calling the shots you need only look at the big media moguls who own the conglomerates.

Orion · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
You don't have a clue what you're talking about, an Islamism is political Islam IE non-secular Islam promoting implementation of Sharia Law, and adherent of Islamism is referred to as an Islamist. This Imam is an Islamist.

Then what is your point? The YMCA is not a church because it does not offer religious services, they do not hold mass at the YMCA.

lol, this Mosque holds religious services for Muslims and only Muslims, Mosques do allow non-Muslims to attend so that they may receive Dawa.

How do I sound just like him? If I sound just like him then he must be stating facts, because that's all I have done.

Most of your statements only go to prove your ignorance on the subject matter.

Here you go:

Just what am I misinformed about?

Actually they will let me in to receive Dawa which is the reason why allowing non-Muslims into this Mosque.

Chapels in hospitals do not hold masses. Chapels in hospitals are non-denominational unless the hospitals themselves are of a particular religion. This is a Mosque which doubles as an Islamic Community Center open to non-Muslims so that they might receive Dawa, if it was an actual community center then they would either be a) not offering religious services, or b) offering religious services to all members of the community.

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

Oh lord... I see the equivocation has begun.

Not interested.

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

FilmFestGuy said:
I sincerely question your reading comprehension ability. Clearly the article you're quoting is about how to CHANGE Sharia law.

No he is saying that he wants to change the Penal Code while simultaneously advocating it Sharia law itself, hence the title of the article "How Islamic Law Can Work," his problem with the Sharia is not the criminilization of homosexuality, apostasy, adultery, pre-marital sex, or gender discrimination in cases related to inheritance and the like but rather his problem is with the penal code, if he was not an Islamist he would be supporting secularism not reform in the Sharia penal code.

Seriously.

My God, man.

F'ing ridiculous. But I don't blame you. I blame whatever conspiracy-laden websites you read.

The only one who's being ridiculous here is you. He clearly said that what he wants is: "...to ensure that their secular laws are not in conflict with the Quran or the Hadith, the sayings of Muhammad...". Again his problem is not with Sharia but with the penal code.

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

FilmFestGuy said:
And this timeline shows how it was essentially turned from mild controversy to national firestorm by The New York Post, a virulently anti-Muslim group, and eventually Fox News.

Lol, the longest continuously running Daily Newspaper in the country is a "virulently anti-Muslim group"?

You people are fooking ridiculous.

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

Orion said:
Oh lord... I see the equivocation has begun.

Really? What equivocation have I begun? You made a false analogy between the YMCA and the Cordoba House, the YMCA does not offer religious services let alone religious services to only a specific religion, the Cordoba House offers religious services to Muslims and Muslims only.

You, also, gave a false definition for the term "Islamist," by asserting that an Islamist is simply an Islamic scholar, whereas, the fact is that an Islamist is an anti-secular pro-Sharia Muslim, this man is not a secular Muslim he is an Islamist.

Orion · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
Really? What equivocation have I begun? You made a false analogy between the YMCA and the Cordoba House, the YMCA does not offer religious services let alone religious services to only a specific religion, the Cordoba House offers religious services to Muslims and Muslims only.

You, also, gave a false definition for the term "Islamist," by asserting that an Islamist is simply an Islamic scholar, whereas, the fact is that an Islamist is an anti-secular pro-Sharia Muslim, this man is not a secular Muslim he is an Islamist.

Look dude, I don't care about your little word differentiations and equivocating instance A to instance B. The argument has descended into meaningless drivel, just like its premise. The people building the community centre are not terrorists, no matter how much propaganda gets spun by the pundits to paint them as such. People just don't like Islam because the only thing they know about it is that some crazy people reciting the Koran crashed themselves into the World Trade Centre almost 10 years ago. That's the extent of it.

I don't really care what ignorant arguments people make. I support the community centre because I support freedom. If your ideas differ then oh well. Have fun expressing them. I am now going to stop listening.

Agent Ferris · Aug 22, 2010

Orion said:
Look dude, I don't care about your little word differentiations and equivocating instance A to instance B. The argument has descended into meaningless drivel, just like its premise. The people building the community centre are not terrorists, no matter how much propaganda gets spun by the pundits to paint them as such.

You are correct they are not terrorists, however, Imam Rauf is an Islamist not a secular Muslim and is part of the problem with mainstream Islam today.

People just don't like Islam because the only thing they know about it is that some crazy people reciting the Koran crashed themselves into the World Trade Centre almost 10 years ago. That's the extent of it.

No I don't like Islam because currently in all five mainstream schools of Islamic Fiqh apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, and premarital sex are capital and/or corporal offenses. Now this Imam asserts that he opposes the stringent punishments in Sharia but what he is not said is that he is opposed to Sharia itself and in fact openly advocates a Sharia compliant U.S. which means that he supports the criminalization of the aforementioned actions if not the same brutal punishments for those actions. I have no problem with secular Muslims but I have a huge problem with Islamists.

I don't really care what ignorant arguments people make. I support the community centre because I support freedom. If your ideas differ then oh well. Have fun expressing them. I am now going to stop listening.

It's not a community center they will not be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community, it is a Mosque.

Orion · Aug 22, 2010

Agent Ferris said:
You are correct they are not terrorists, however, Imam Rauf is an Islamist not a secular Muslim and is part of the problem with mainstream Islam today.

You are entitled to your opinion of the man. I personally don't know enough about him to say, but based on his actions I don't really have a problem with him.

Agent Ferris said:
No I don't like Islam because currently in all five mainstream schools of Islamic Fiqh apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, and premarital sex are capital and/or corporal offenses. Now this Imam asserts that he opposes the stringent punishments in Sharia but what he is not said is that he is opposed to Sharia itself and in fact openly advocates a Sharia compliant U.S. which means that he supports the criminalization of the aforementioned actions if not the same brutal punishments for those actions. I have no problem with secular Muslims but I have a huge problem with Islamists.

That seems like a really nitpicky reason to not want the community centre built.

Agent Ferris said:
It's not a community center they will not be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community, it is a Mosque.

The general public will be able to go there to partake in the various activities offered in the centre, including sports and learning workshops. It will also have open spaces for rent for various cultural activities. That makes it a community centre. Sorry you can't see that.

apdst · Aug 22, 2010

Orion said:
Look dude, I don't care about your little word differentiations and equivocating instance A to instance B. The argument has descended into meaningless drivel, just like its premise. The people building the community centre are not terrorists, no matter how much propaganda gets spun by the pundits to paint them as such. People just don't like Islam because the only thing they know about it is that some crazy people reciting the Koran crashed themselves into the World Trade Centre almost 10 years ago. That's the extent of it.

I don't really care what ignorant arguments people make. I support the community centre because I support freedom. If your ideas differ then oh well. Have fun expressing them. I am now going to stop listening.

How can you support total freedom; you're Canadian.

TacticalEvilDan · Aug 22, 2010

He said "freedom," not "total freedom."

Probably because there is no such thing in any society on the face of the Earth as "total freedom." :lol:

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