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Scarborough: 'Screw' GOP if they kick me out for defending mosque

Building a compound in Texas is easy too, and you know full well that was not the problem there.

And you know damned well that those people were just following their own religious beliefs..... and look what that got them.
 
Building a compound in Texas is easy too, and you know full well that was not the problem there.

If you're referring only to Waco, I know full well that people were weirded out and made lots of accusations that no one proved. (Which doesn't mean they weren't true, only that there's scant evidence of it, and even that only came along after everyone was dead.) Almost everyone was acting on accusation and innuendo and the fact that they were just so darn weird. It's actually not a bad parallel to the accusations against the mosque leaders, except that there hasn't been anyone killed.

But any time someone builds a similar religious commune, someone wants to stop it, and often accuses them of doing terrible things inside. And usually, the mainstream accepts those accusations as fact.

THAT'S when religious freedom gets hard.

(Someone would probably go after the Amish if they weren't so well-established.)
 
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Scarborough's had a hard on for Newt since the 1990's when he was in the house and Newt was the speaker. If you haven't watched very much, you'll see that Scarborough and Newt never really hit it off - so making comments on MSNBC criticizing Newt... that's a weekly occurance.
Do you agree with Newt's comments on this issue or not?

In order for me to watch, I would need to get up a 3AM. No thanks.
 
If you're referring only to Waco, I know full well that people were weirded out and made lots of accusations that no one proved. (Which doesn't mean they weren't true, only that there's scant evidence of it, and even that only came along after everyone was dead.) Almost everyone was acting on accusation and innuendo and the fact that they were just so darn weird. It's actually not a bad parallel to the accusations against the mosque leaders, except that there hasn't been anyone killed.
Yet.........
But any time someone builds a similar religious commune, someone wants to stop it, and often accuses them of doing terrible things inside. And usually, the mainstream accepts those accusations as fact.

THAT'S when religious freedom gets hard.

(Someone would probably go after the Amish if they weren't so well-established.)
 
Well, actually, no, it's not.
Yes, it is. Any expression in the public domain falls under TPM arguments. This mosque is proposed on private property though and that is the one thing I didn't think of, so yes I'm wrong on that part. But TPM arguments do in fact pertain to legal restrictions on speech based upon Time, place, and manner and the law must be narrowly implied, not overbroad. I had to study this stuff in at least two curriculum classes man.



Doesn't have anything to do with TPM.
It absolutely does. In fact there was a case involving disturbing the peace laws near school zones.



Split hair.
Nope. Some usage involves permit time, however some usage denotes times that are appropriate for the FCC to allow more lax standards to broadcasts. And still others refer(as in yelling fire falsely in a crowded theater) refers to the time of no danger and danger being created.



Not always.
Always. Protesting a funeral is hard to do at a barmitzvah. Yelling fire in a crowded theater is impossible at a golf course. You cannot have a public parade/rally outside of public domain necessarily and for all intents and purposes legally.




Never. Refers to restrictions on manner of expression, such as not allowing fireworks on a city street.
Not true, I'll have to dig up some cases later. Let's just say "incitement to riot" is not about the speech but the intent to cause harm by the speech. As is slander/libel, which is defended by proof of truth.




Hardly. Besides, who would be the "plaintiff"? Who could possibly have standing to bring the suit? Who is being harmed by what a religious organization does on its own property?

With as much energy is behind opposition, don't you think that if this could be done, and any good attorney could do it, it would be happening?
If a lady can sue McDonald's for her own mistake and win anyone can sue for anything. It's that simple whether right or wrong.
 
Yes, it is. Any expression in the public domain falls under TPM arguments.

No.

A time/place/manner analysis is applied to restrictions of expression. As in, a restriction could survive if it restricts ONLY the time, place, or manner (among other things). If there's no restriction, no prior restraint, there's no TPM argument.

And my "no, it's not" referred to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater always being illegal. It's the most misquoted, misused legal canard I can think of this side of "finders keepers."

But TPM arguments do in fact pertain to legal restrictions on speech based upon Time, place, and manner and the law must be narrowly implied, not overbroad.

Uh, yes, I said that.

But you can't sue someone and enjoin their conduct based on TPM if there's no restriction. It is a test as to the constitutionality of a prior restraint.



I had to study this stuff in at least two curriculum classes man.

And I kinda had to know a little bit about it to pass the bar, so if you want to pull out a ruler . . .



It absolutely does. In fact there was a case involving disturbing the peace laws near school zones.

OK, fine; in specific circumstances, TPM review could come into play.



Nope. Some usage involves permit time, however some usage denotes times that are appropriate for the FCC to allow more lax standards to broadcasts.

Yeah, that fits with what I said. But "for a generation" just ain't gonna cut it.


And still others refer(as in yelling fire falsely in a crowded theater) refers to the time of no danger and danger being created.

When it is so, it turns on the facts of the situation, not the time it's done. This is not a "time" restriction.



Always. Protesting a funeral is hard to do at a barmitzvah. Yelling fire in a crowded theater is impossible at a golf course. You cannot have a public parade/rally outside of public domain necessarily and for all intents and purposes legally.

I don't even know what you're arguing here. This doesn't make sense, considering what you're responding to. But it looks to me like your'e again applying TPM analysis to the activity, not restriction of the activity.




Not true, I'll have to dig up some cases later. Let's just say "incitement to riot" is not about the speech but the intent to cause harm by the speech. As is slander/libel, which is defended by proof of truth.

Those do not refer to "manner."


If a lady can sue McDonald's for her own mistake and win anyone can sue for anything. It's that simple whether right or wrong.

If you knew the facts of that case, you would understand why that's not a good response.
 
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Scarborough has moved to the left. I believe to keep his job at MSNBC

Exactly - defending the separation of church and state and the 1st Amendment as a whole is certainly proof that he's rejecting the right-wing wackiness that's taking over too many Conservatives in this country.

I never thought I'd see so many Republicans against religious freedom, but there it is. Obvious as day.
 
Exactly - defending the separation of church and state and the 1st Amendment as a whole is certainly proof that he's rejecting the right-wing wackiness that's taking over too many Conservatives in this country.

I never thought I'd see so many Republicans against religious freedom, but there it is. Obvious as day.

You need to keep up...... most are no questioning their right to build, but whether it is right to build where they want to build, got it?
 
Excerpted from “Olbermann: There is no ‘Ground Zero Mosque’” By Keith Olbermann, Anchor, 'Countdown', msnbc.com, updated 8/16/2010 9:06:23 PM ET, SPECIAL COMMENT
[SIZE="+2"]T[/SIZE]here is, in fact, no "Ground Zero mosque." It isn't a mosque.

A mosque is a Muslim holy place in which only worship can be conducted. What is planned for 45 Park Place, New York City, is a Community Center. It's supposed to include a basketball court. And a cullinary school. It's to be thirteen stories tall and the top two stories will be a Muslim prayer space. …

"We are calling it Park 51 because of the backlash to the name Cordoba House," he told the Financial Times. "It will be a place open to all New Yorkers and that is a very New York name." A very New York name. Like "Ground Zero." Except this place — Park 51 — is not even at Ground Zero, not even 'right across the street.' Even the description of it being "two blocks away" is generous.

It is two blocks away from the northeast corner of the World Trade Center site. From the planned location of the [Sept.] 11 memorial it is more like four or even five blocks. …

Not a mosque.

Not at ground zero.

Hmm.
 
Do you agree with Newt's comments on this issue or not?

In order for me to watch, I would need to get up a 3AM. No thanks.

I agree that a Japanese being built near the Arizona 10 years after Pearl Harbor wouldn't have happened. Nor would a German monument anywhere close to Auschwits, nor Janowska, nor Chełmno 10 years after WWII would be tolerated. In fact, Germany outlaws the public display of the swastika on almost all accounts.

Let's make sure we all are reminded of what Gingrich said:

Newt Gingrich said:
This happens all the time in America. Nazis don’t have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust Museum in Washington. We would never accept the Japanese putting up a site next to Pearl Harbor. There’s no reason for us to accept a mosque next to the World Trade Center.
I wouldn't accept such a Mosque as an "outreach" center by any means. Were it really an outreach center to bring people together - all 4 of the major religions would be represented. In Germany or in Poland - today's Nazi's (if there are such a thing) wouldn't be tolerated putting up a building near the death camps - they just wouldn't. Yes I realize there's a Shinto shrine within 10 miles of Pearl Harbor --- which is just fine and dandy. Let's go with that plan ... these folks can put up a mosque within 10 miles of ground zero. I got no problem with that at all.
 
You keep repeating that as though it means something.

Newt said it wasn't right to build the Mosque there..... he saw the word "right" and took it from there. :shrug:
 
Still no news of the whereabouts of radical Islamic cleric Imam Feisel Rauf, who has connections to Hamas, Fatah, AMIR, AMSA and other radical, anti-Semitic organizations. Rauf is the head of "Cordoba House" - the radical right-wing Islamic Mosque that liberals wish to have built.

He cannot be found.

He is on a State Department Visa with U.S. Taxpayer money, picking up cash from radical Islamic governments.

He is anti-Semitic and homophobic ... yet liberals *are pleading* for this Mosque to be built under the rubric of "freedom of religion." Obama rejects Christianity but sides with Islamic radical anti-Semites; as does the majority of Democrats, liberals and "progressives."

Hate by anyother name is hate. Bigotry is bigotry.

Stop hate.
Stop bigotry.
Stop homophobia.
Stop the Ground Zero Mosque.
Stop Liberal support of Bigotry and Racism.
Stop Liberal support of Islamic terrorism and death.
 
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Actually Newt said the Nazi's have no right to build next to the jewish holocaust museum. He then quickly tied the mosque to that analogy. He never said the Muslims don't have the "right" just that Nazi's don't have the right. But the Nazi's ain't a religion and Muslims ain't nazi's and...and... hell, it's Newt. Who cares anyways?

Kinda like the art of tieing Iraq to Al Queda. It's an old trick. A way to suggest yet leave lot's of wiggle room. Sheeple eat that kinda stuff up.

I'm takin' odds that somebody will take the buy-off and it will never come to pass. Then the <fill-in-the-blank> political party will come victoriously claiming they stopped the construction of the mosque. I also predict this will transpire close to election day.
 
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You know what? I misstated the standard of review for time/place/manner restrictions; it's intermediate scrutiny and not strict scrutiny. Doesn't really matter, but just in the interest of being accurate.

Also, it's pretty much all a moot point anyway, because time/place/manner restrictions are valid for expression, not for exercise of religion.
 
No.

A time/place/manner analysis is applied to restrictions of expression. As in, a restriction could survive if it restricts ONLY the time, place, or manner (among other things). If there's no restriction, no prior restraint, there's no TPM argument.
The mosque in question is in fact an expression and the argument is restricting it's place because of the perception that this particular imam may be doing so for improper reasons which is exactly a TPM argument.

And my "no, it's not" referred to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater always being illegal. It's the most misquoted, misused legal canard I can think of this side of "finders keepers."
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is always illegal, if someone is injured then charges are legitimate. Sorry that is correct.



Uh, yes, I said that.

But you can't sue someone and enjoin their conduct based on TPM if there's no restriction. It is a test as to the constitutionality of a prior restraint.
I get
that. The point is that the mosque is under scrutiny at the moment and there is a movement to restrict.




And I kinda had to know a little bit about it to pass the bar, so if you want to pull out a ruler . . .
That wasn't the intention, just establishing a little credibility.





OK, fine; in specific circumstances, TPM review could come into play.
Which is all I'm saying.




Yeah, that fits with what I said. But "for a generation" just ain't gonna cut it.
No problem, which is why I narrowed the definition to specifically those who the offense may pertain to.




When it is so, it turns on the facts of the situation, not the time it's done. This is not a "time" restriction.
Well, true. It's more of a manner argument, I was quick posting so suggested it to time as in thinking hours of operation. Which is a well duh moment since the theater would not be full after hours. Chalk that one up to not thinking on my part.





I don't even know what you're arguing here. This doesn't make sense, considering what you're responding to. But it looks to me like your'e again applying TPM analysis to the activity, not restriction of the activity.
I meant the place argument as pertaining to the proximity argument. Something about the place argument not always being relevant.






Those do not refer to "manner."
Actually I could argue that it does. Saying the same things in different tones and with different intentions do fit the manner argument. It's all about the context.




If you knew the facts of that case, you would understand why that's not a good response.
Well, she was negligent in that she specifically took actions which led to her injury.
 
You need to keep up...... most are no questioning their right to build, but whether it is right to build where they want to build, got it?

It doesn't matter. It's not their right to stop it being built. If they succeed, I will challenge EVERY Christian church everywhere who disagrees with my politics or if I simply think the architecture is offensive.

If you are trying to prevent this from being built, you are not for freedom of religion. Their freedom of religion trumps yours, Newt's, or anyone else's right not to be offended.
 
Exactly - defending the separation of church and state and the 1st Amendment as a whole is certainly proof that he's rejecting the right-wing wackiness that's taking over too many Conservatives in this country.

I never thought I'd see so many Republicans against religious freedom, but there it is. Obvious as day.

I bet not one word was said about the Greek Orthadox chuch that was destroyred in 911 and is still trying to get permission to rebuild. That shows it is not about church and state and the right to build.
 
I bet not one word was said about the Greek Orthadox chuch that was destroyred in 911 and is still trying to get permission to rebuild. That shows it is not about church and state and the right to build.

This is not accurate. We discussed this in another thread. The story is they where negotiating with the Port Authority for a location to build a larger church, and the discussion broke down on money. If the church wanted to rebuild at it's former location, it could have already started.
 
It doesn't matter. It's not their right to stop it being built. If they succeed, I will challenge EVERY Christian church everywhere who disagrees with my politics or if I simply think the architecture is offensive.

If you are trying to prevent this from being built, you are not for freedom of religion. Their freedom of religion trumps yours, Newt's, or anyone else's right not to be offended.

Pretty shallow argument.... I'm not questioning their right to build the Mosque there, I am stating that it is a foolish move no their part and is tantamount to waving a red flag in a bull's face while tied to a tree 500 yards from the fence line.

It's Kinda like demanding that you had the right of way in a head on collision with an 18 wheeler while driving a Prius.... you might have had the right of way, but you are still going to be calling out, "will somebody prius out of here"?... Or you might be dead right.
 
I bet not one word was said about the Greek Orthadox chuch that was destroyred in 911 and is still trying to get permission to rebuild. That shows it is not about church and state and the right to build.

And thanks to you, I just read about it. It appears to have everything to do with money. Port Authority states that if they'd like to build on their original land, they can start right now. They want more money from PA than they are willing to offer for reconstruction costs.

In other words, it has next-to-nothing to do with the Islamic Center.
 
The mosque in question is in fact an expression and the argument is restricting it's place because of the perception that this particular imam may be doing so for improper reasons which is exactly a TPM argument.

You will never, ever succeed with the argument that building the mosque is expression. Ever. And if someone, somewhere bought into it, it's still trumped by the fact that it's absolutlely exercise of religion.


Yelling fire in a crowded theater is always illegal, if someone is injured then charges are legitimate. Sorry that is correct.

Not if there's no ordinance or law against it. And also not if the specific facts of the case don't satisfy the elements of whatever ordinance or law might exist. There are thousands of permutations which could come into play. Not the least of which being that a case where no one was harmed at all.

The Supreme Court never, ever, declared that yelling "fire" in a crowded theater was illegal. Ever.



I get
that. The point is that the mosque is under scrutiny at the moment and there is a movement to restrict.

DUDE. The MOSQUE is NEVER under scrutiny. The LAW RESTRICTING THE MOSQUE would be. (Except that it wouldn't be, because the mosque isn't expression.)


Which is all I'm saying.

You were saying it always does.



No problem, which is why I narrowed the definition to specifically those who the offense may pertain to.

That's not a time restriction. And if it were claimed as one -- "until the last one of those people is dead" -- it would never hold up.


I meant the place argument as pertaining to the proximity argument. Something about the place argument not always being relevant.

It's not always relevant because there's not always a restriction on location. But for this, there is. Though I will say, if there were any part of a proposed restriction which would have any chance of succeeding, it's place. But probably not, considering there are buildings in between GZ and the mosque. (And, of course, that it doesn't apply to exercise of religion.)




Actually I could argue that it does. Saying the same things in different tones and with different intentions do fit the manner argument. It's all about the context.

Restrictions on intentions are not content-neutral and would fail as time/place/manner restrictions.


Well, she was negligent in that she specifically took actions which led to her injury.

There were some mitigating circumstances. However, McDonald's was also fully aware that it makes its coffee very, very, very hot, much hotter than most other places, that it was dangerously hot, and internal memoranda confirmed that they decided to keep it that hot anyway because they thought it enhanced the flavor. No one else's coffee would have caused the injuries the woman suffered (which also involved melting some of the nylon in her garments and having it stick to her skin; the coffee was just hot enough to that), and certainly not to the degree they were suffered.

However, because of mitigating circumstances, the judgment was lowered, but McDonald's was still liable and rightly so.
 
Pretty shallow argument.... I'm not questioning their right to build the Mosque there, I am stating that it is a foolish move no their part and is tantamount to waving a red flag in a bull's face while tied to a tree 500 yards from the fence line.

It's Kinda like demanding that you had the right of way in a head on collision with an 18 wheeler while driving a Prius.... you might have had the right of way, but you are still going to be calling out, "will somebody prius out of here"?... Or you might be dead right.

Oh, I hate Fred Phelps and his ilk, but I'll still fight for his right to be obnoxious and believe anything he'd like.

I will also call him a jerk. I don't think this is the best idea on the part of this Imam, but freedom of religion is more important to me than the arguments about people being offended.
 
This is not accurate. We discussed this in another thread. The story is they where negotiating with the Port Authority for a location to build a larger church, and the discussion broke down on money. If the church wanted to rebuild at it's former location, it could have already started.

Ground Zero Islamic Mosque Moves Forward, Christian Church in Limbo - HUMAN EVENTS

The Port Authority agreed to give the church a parcel of land at Liberty and Greenwich Streets, and contribute $20 million toward construction of a new sanctuary. The Port Authority also agreed to build an explosion-proof platform and foundation for the new church building, which would sit on top of a screening area for cars and trucks entering the underground garages at the new World Trade Center.

Trouble emerged after St. Nicholas announced its plans to build a traditional Greek Orthodox church building, 24,000 square feet in size, topped with a grand dome. Port Authority officials told the church to cut back the size of the building and the height of the proposed dome, limiting it to rising no higher than the World Trade Center memorial. The deal fell apart for goodin March 2009, when the Port Authority abruptly ended the talks after refusing to allow church officials to review plans for the garage and screening area underneath. Sixteen months later, the two sides have still not met to resume negotiations.
 
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