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GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

CriticalThought said:
Wow, that is interesting. The top .1% earns 11.93% of the nation's income and pays 20.19% of taxes. Man, I'm happy we have a progressive tax system. The richest people in the country own 12% of the income but only pay 20% of the taxes? That is nuts!
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Why do you care what someone else pays in taxes? Just asking. How does what the rich pay affect you and your family?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Harry Guerrilla said:
Correlation does not equal causation.
Growth can happen independent of taxes but it can't always happen with punitively high taxes.
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As can be said with the low tax argument; although another glaring statistic does stick out during the post WWII recovery period. Wealth inequality has been a central theme in asset bubbles that manifest into deflationary liquidity traps (as even Japan leaves us with a more recent occurrence). Not only in the form of intra-country wealth inequality, but on a globally relative scale.

Giovanni Andrea Cornia. Trends in Income Distribution in the Post WWII Period, 2001.

Not to mention that there has been a shift in our economy from unskilled labor to skill labor.
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I believe this to be existing at this very moment, as evident in the perpetual double digit health care inflation. There is such a demand for health care related careers, yet a constant shortage in an age of double digit unemployment. A reskilling period is all but certain, and medium term unemployment will most likely remain high until this asymmetry works itself out.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Something vexes me; a great deal of posters deem the spending spree post 9/11 to not only be necessary, but under no circumstances should it have been budget neutral (even following the expansionary period that reached full employment). Such a notion displays shades of radical partisanship. Even if the spending was necessary (and that is another discussion entirely), i believe it should have been paid for following the recovery.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:
As can be said with the low tax argument; although another glaring statistic does stick out during the post WWII recovery period. Wealth inequality has been a central theme in asset bubbles that manifest into deflationary liquidity traps (as even Japan leaves us with a more recent occurrence). Not only in the form of intra-country wealth inequality, but on a globally relative scale.

Giovanni Andrea Cornia. Trends in Income Distribution in the Post WWII Period, 2001.
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I'm not arguing that high or low taxes can inherently create a prosperous economy, I'm saying that it is a small piece of a larger puzzle that is the economy.

People tend to cite that, the high taxes of that period correlate with the high productivity, when there are a myriad of other things effecting the economy at the time.

Goldenboy219 said:
I believe this to be existing at this very moment, as evident in the perpetual double digit health care inflation. There is such a demand for health care related careers, yet a constant shortage in an age of double digit unemployment. A reskilling period is all but certain, and medium term unemployment will most likely remain high until this asymmetry works itself out.
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It's working it's way out slowly.

I haven't checked locally lately but, at one time, there was a 2 year waiting list to get on nursing program at the tech school.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:
Something vexes me; a great deal of posters deem the spending spree post 9/11 to not only be necessary, but under no circumstances should it have been budget neutral (even following the expansionary period that reached full employment). Such a notion displays shades of radical partisanship. Even if the spending was necessary (and that is another discussion entirely), i believe it should have been paid for following the recovery.
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I don't agree with the spending spree at all.

I honestly don't agree with infrastructure stimulus programs but I do agree quantitative easing measures to banks.
Let the money allocate itself, through the system, more naturally.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:
Why do you care what someone else pays in taxes? Just asking. How does what the rich pay affect you and your family?
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Taxes pay for Social Secruity, National defense, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

CriticalThought said:
Taxes pay for Social Secruity, National defense, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.
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You really don't understand our tax system do you, SS taxes are separate, Medicare Taxes are separate, and Income taxes are separate. You continue to SS and Medicare thus get money back so tell me how the rich affect what you get from those programs? then there are income taxes, are you aware that 47% of the people in the workers in this country don't pay any income taxes? So you should be upset with the 47% that don't pay any income taxes instead of worrying about collecting more from the rich? I am hardly rich but I don't care what the rich pay in taxes and wonder why others do but no outrage over those who don't pay any income taxes?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm not arguing that high or low taxes can inherently create a prosperous economy, I'm saying that it is a small piece of a larger puzzle that is the economy.

People tend to cite that, the high taxes of that period correlate with the high productivity, when there are a myriad of other things effecting the economy at the time.
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I know! Yet the low tax argument almost always fails to mention the correlation of realitivly historic wealth inequality prior to deflationary liquidity traps. It would seem to me, that a glut of rent seeking is it and of itself a bubble!

It's working it's way out slowly.

I haven't checked locally lately but, at one time, there was a 2 year waiting list to get on nursing program at the tech school.
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There was a paper i read a while back showing the physician/population ratio to be shrinking. The question is, does the AMA have a hand in this?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

CriticalThought said:
Taxes pay for Social Secruity, National defense, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.
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I am Sure you know that income taxes do NOT pay for social security or medicare. Medicaid is state funded. If you don't even know how socil security is funded how can there be a reasoned debate.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:
I know! Yet the low tax argument almost always fails to mention the correlation of realitivly historic wealth inequality prior to deflationary liquidity traps. It would seem to me, that a glut of rent seeking is it and of itself a bubble!
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Hey I argue for low taxes based on the fact that I don't want to pay high taxes. :mrgreen:

Goldenboy219 said:
There was a paper i read a while back showing the physician/population ratio to be shrinking. The question is, does the AMA have a hand in this?
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It could be higher foreign physician immigration.
I honestly don't know for sure.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Harry Guerrilla said:
I haven't checked locally lately but, at one time, there was a 2 year waiting list to get on nursing program at the tech school.
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My sister and mother both entered nursing programs recently without waiting at all, so that might just be a local thing.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

FilmFestGuy said:
Thank you. Now you all are making my point for me. Tax cuts - unless they're extremely dramatic don't do anything.

Sure, you get a little more take-home pay (and I know people don't admit it, but most of them are taking home even more under Obama - at least those under $250,000 got a little stimulus in their checks) - but it doesn't have an impact on the overall economy.

Weren't we told that the Bush tax cuts would create jobs and grow the economy? They didn't.

If your argument is merely, it's a good thing for people to have more take-home pay and that's the end of it, then I'm okay with that argument.

But there is no proof that it has an impact on the economy at large - so these people saying that they're going to either fix or destroy the economy if we let them lapse on the top earning bracket really don't have an argument.

As has been pointed out, the top brackets don't need more money to spend money. They already make more than they spend, so I don't see how letting the top rate rise a little bit is going to destroy the economy.

It's going to be a necessary part of ending the deficit - combined with cuts in spending in all areas - including everyone's sacred cow, the Department of Defense.

Conservatives in Britain understand this.
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tax cuts meant we who pay them have more money-that does PLENTY FOR US TAX PAYERS

if you constantly want to increase taxes on a minority that already pays most of the federal income tax, there will NEVER EVER be an incentive for the majority who don't get taxed more to ever vote for decreased spending. Dem politicians get power by using the money of the rich to buy the votes of the many. They have NO INCENTIVE to cut spending since that cuts their power.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

TurtleDude said:
tax cuts meant we who pay them have more money-that does PLENTY FOR US TAX PAYERS

if you constantly want to increase taxes on a minority that already pays most of the federal income tax, there will NEVER EVER be an incentive for the majority who don't get taxed more to ever vote for decreased spending. Dem politicians get power by using the money of the rich to buy the votes of the many. They have NO INCENTIVE to cut spending since that cuts their power.
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To pay for the government we voted for taxes will go up on everyone. Income tax rates will go up on the upper incomes, VAT tax, which is regressive on just about everybody. Inheritance taxes will mean that farmers will not be able to pass down their farms to their kids, same for small business people.

Neither party is advocating specific meaningful cuts in spending, so the money has to come from somewhere. We can't expect foreign nations to keep paying for our out of control spending.

The U.K. is ahead of us in biting the bullet and admiting that they had to reduce spending. It does not seem Americans are willing to admit yet that the path we are on is unsustainable.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

washunut said:
It does not seem Americans are willing to admit yet that the path we are on is unsustainable.
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No I think we're willing to admit it, the problem is everyone wants to gore the OTHER GUY'S ox. The people without money want the people WITH money to pay higher taxes. The people WITH money want to save money by giving even LESS support to the poor. The people in red states want blue state projects shut down. People in blue states want red state projects shut down. Never truer words have I heard, "One man's 'pork' is another man's 'desperately needed waste treatment facility.'"

No, we know it's unsustainable, it's just that nobody thinks THEY should be the ones to shoulder the burden.
 
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Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Cyberhwk said:
No I think we're willing to admit it, the problem is everyone wants to gore the OTHER GUY'S ox. The people without money want the people WITH money to pay higher taxes. The people WITH money want to save money by giving even LESS support to the poor. The people in red states want blue state projects shut down. People in blue states want red state projects shut down. Never truer words have I heard, "One man's 'pork' is another man's 'desperately needed waste treatment facility.'"

No, we know it's unsustainable, it's just that nobody thinks THEY should be the ones to shoulder the burden.
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I guess what I am trying to say is that the problem is bigger than just saying the other person has to deal with it. This is going to take tax increases and spending cuts that are very broad and impacts both right and left constituents or else it will be meaningless.

The longer we wait the harder the impact will be. There is always a reason why now is not the right time.

Not sure or form of representative government will allow us to elect people willing to fix the structural problems in the U.S.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

washunut said:
I guess what I am trying to say is that the problem is bigger than just saying the other person has to deal with it. This is going to take tax increases and spending cuts that are very broad and impacts both right and left constituents or else it will be meaningless.
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Indeed! Except Republicans have made it quite clear that any tax increase whatsoever will be completely unacceptable. They have offered at MOST extremely vague and wishy-washy proposals for cutting spending (or proposals they have no chance in hell of implementing; I'm looking at you "Abolish the Department of Education" people).

That's why politicians invented the term "government waste." So you never actually have to take a POSITION on anything. It's easier to campaign on "cutting waste" than "cutting Program X, Y, Z" because you don't have to deal with people who like Program X, Y, Z. It's also a great term because there's no way to hold someone accountable since you never have to articulate what your goal is.

You're 100% correct. There are three ways to attack the National Debt:

  1. Raise Taxes to raise revenue.
  2. Cut spending to lower costs.
  3. Balance the budget and let the debt inflate away.

Anybody who thinks we can solve the problem with a "one prong" approach is simply deluded.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

TurtleDude said:
tax cuts meant we who pay them have more money-that does PLENTY FOR US TAX PAYERS

if you constantly want to increase taxes on a minority that already pays most of the federal income tax
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So FICA which brings in nearly the same amount doesn't count to you? You have this real big hang up on only income tax to the point you went out of your way to pretend Lord T's post showing the breakdown of taxes where FICA was a few hundred billion short of Income simply did not exist. This suggests you have no use for honest debate as you keep pretending that only income tax exists and that all other taxes aside from the estate simply do not matter despite their large staggering effects upon the budget.

there will NEVER EVER be an incentive for the majority who don't get taxed more to ever vote for decreased spending.
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As will there never been an incentive for the minority who gets special privileges and subsidies to vote for decreasing spending. Pretending that doesn't exist too eh? What a simple life. Only the things that negatively effect me are bad and that all of the good things on the same plate that I complain about aren't there. Despite me getting benefits. Honest, you are not.

Dem politicians get power by using the money of the rich to buy the votes of the many.
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And GOP does the same thing. Or were you sleeping during the all GOP years?

Some of us have memory superior to that of Goldfish. Some do not.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

obvious Child said:
So FICA which brings in nearly the same amount doesn't count to you? You have this real big hang up on only income tax to the point you went out of your way to pretend Lord T's post showing the breakdown of taxes where FICA was a few hundred billion short of Income simply did not exist. This suggests you have no use for honest debate as you keep pretending that only income tax exists and that all other taxes aside from the estate simply do not matter despite their large staggering effects upon the budget.



As will there never been an incentive for the minority who gets special privileges and subsidies to vote for decreasing spending. Pretending that doesn't exist too eh? What a simple life. Only the things that negatively effect me are bad and that all of the good things on the same plate that I complain about aren't there. Despite me getting benefits. Honest, you are not.



And GOP does the same thing. Or were you sleeping during the all GOP years?

Some of us have memory superior to that of Goldfish. Some do not.
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Gee, I always thought that payroll taxes were SS taxes and that "contributions" to SS would lead to benefits when the individual retired. Didn't know that was the same affect as income taxes. Who would have thought it? Wonder if those calling for a payroll tax cut are also calling for a SS benefit cut when those people retire? Comparisons between both taxes seem to be quite inappropriate but as OC would say what do I know?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Cyberhwk said:
Indeed! Except Republicans have made it quite clear that any tax increase whatsoever will be completely unacceptable. They have offered at MOST extremely vague and wishy-washy proposals for cutting spending (or proposals they have no chance in hell of implementing; I'm looking at you "Abolish the Department of Education" people).

That's why politicians invented the term "government waste." So you never actually have to take a POSITION on anything. It's easier to campaign on "cutting waste" than "cutting Program X, Y, Z" because you don't have to deal with people who like Program X, Y, Z. It's also a great term because there's no way to hold someone accountable since you never have to articulate what your goal is.

You're 100% correct. There are three ways to attack the National Debt:

  1. Raise Taxes to raise revenue.
  2. Cut spending to lower costs.
  3. Balance the budget and let the debt inflate away.

Anybody who thinks we can solve the problem with a "one prong" approach is simply deluded.
Click to expand...

If you have been following my posts you would know that I am against any tax increases and especially now with 16 million unemployed Americans. I don't see how any tax increase will put these people back to work and how tax increases positively affect our consumer driven economy? Unless we are at full employment or close to it, I have never seen a tax increase grow govt. revenue. My concern continues to be the politicians in D.C. that have an appetite for spending so the more money they get the more they spend so even if a tax increase generates more money fiscal discipline is required to put any additional revenue to debt reduction. Right now the best way to grow revenue is to increase the number of tax payers by growing demand and that can only be done through tax cuts.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:
If you have been following my posts you would know that I am against any tax increases and especially now with 16 million unemployed Americans. I don't see how any tax increase will put these people back to work and how tax increases positively affect our consumer driven economy? Unless we are at full employment or close to it, I have never seen a tax increase grow govt. revenue. My concern continues to be the politicians in D.C. that have an appetite for spending so the more money they get the more they spend so even if a tax increase generates more money fiscal discipline is required to put any additional revenue to debt reduction. Right now the best way to grow revenue is to increase the number of tax payers by growing demand and that can only be done through tax cuts.
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The Bush tax cuts that currently exist aren't growing jobs, are they?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

UtahBill said:
The Bush tax cuts that currently exist aren't growing jobs, are they?
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No, they aren't but it isn't because of the tax cuts, it is because of other economic conditions that cost people jobs. Hard to cut taxes on unemployment benefits.

Why are so many here against keeping more of their own money? Please don't tell me it is because they believe it is for the good of the nation!
 
WingsOfDesire said:
The Republicans are lead by McConnell, Boehner, and Steele.. so I can't begin my sentence with, "If the Republicans were smart..."

Instead I just have to say: See: Bush Tax Cuts. yeah, that turned out to be a real winner

Smart tax cuts don't exist anymore, just "oh, woe on the rich, they're too heavily taxed"... these morons might find themselves a winning platform with across the board tax cuts, but it won't benefit America in the long haul
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Let's look at the track record of the smart Dems.....Reid, Pelosi, Geitner

:lamo
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

UtahBill said:
The Bush tax cuts that currently exist aren't growing jobs, are they?
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Why would they when dwarfed by massive $trillion spending plans? Any other questions?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:
No, they aren't but it isn't because of the tax cuts, it is because of other economic conditions that cost people jobs. Hard to cut taxes on unemployment benefits.

Why are so many here against keeping more of their own money? Please don't tell me it is because they believe it is for the good of the nation!
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You used the word ONLY, and it is my opinion that absolutes should not be used. Leave out the word only, and I might be more inclined to buy into your statement...
and, I think encouraging spending from the private sector thru selected tax cuts aimed at the trillions tied up in stagnant retiree accounts is the way to go...
 
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