The End of Men

It's hard to believe that in 2010 there are people who still perpetuate such stereotypical and utterly sexist views about women. One would think that everyone would be cheering the fact that women are finally reaching equal ground in some areas.

rivrrat said:

I blame individuals for their lack of negotiating skills to get higher pay, regardless of their gender.

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Thats another thing. It is hardly pro womens rights, that we have had to learn to negotiate in a way that suits men, rather than in a way that is more natural for women. What would have been fair, is if work places had such culture of gender equality, that both types of negotiation are understood.

Some say, to reduce this obstacle to gender equality, a price tag should be associated with each type of job, and that it is not up for negotiation.

Mell said:

Are you sure you get payed the same. Many/most companies have a policy that their employees keep their rate of pay secret from other employees.

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I'm pretty sure that I make as much or more than my male peers. Our salary structure is public.

Dr_Patrick said:

It's hard to believe that in 2010 there are people who still perpetuate such stereotypical and utterly sexist views about women.

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Maybe the sexism has become such a part of and so ingrained in society that people dont even recognise it as sexism anymore.

I have had situations where people have demanded that I respect the sexism. And, if I pointed out the unreasonablness of being expected to respect what does not respect me, I was excluded and/or dismissed as some kind of wacko western feminist. It is as if western womens rights are somehow believed to be different to those of women in third world countries. Granted, there are women who support their own repression in many cases, but would they do so if they had been exposed to different. Women were the same in the west. Some were more opposed to womens rights than men were. But despite it, none these days want to step back to how it was 200 years ago.

Catz Part Deux said:

Our salary structure is public.

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Ah, isnt progress great! Just making it public is already an advance. It pretty much eliminates the possibility for companies to hide gender and race related pay discrimination.

Harry Guerrilla said:

I wasn't the one who posted an article about women being better than men.

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No, but you keep making comparisons that show your view point.

Mell said:

Maybe the sexism has become such a part of and so ingrained in society that people dont even recognise it as sexism anymore.

I have had situations where people have demanded that I respect the sexism. And, if I pointed out the unreasonablness of being expected to respect what does not respect me, I was excluded and/or dismissed as some kind of wacko western feminist. It is as if western womens rights are somehow believed to be different to those of women in third world countries. Granted, there are women who support their own repression in many cases, but would they do so if they had been exposed to different. Women were the same in the west. Some were more opposed to womens rights than men were. But despite it, none these days want to step back to how it was 200 years ago.

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I know exactly what you mean. I'm glad things are steadily progressing, though, despite attempts by others to keep things the same.

Harry Guerrilla said:

I wasn't the one who posted an article about women being better than men.

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More evidence that you didn't read the article. The article didn't suggest that men or women were better. The article was primarily about societal changes that have given women an edge in terms of competing in the marketplace and educationally. Basically, the article suggested that woman are better AT POSTINDUSTRIAL PROFESSIONAL ROLES than men. NOt that women are better overall. In almost every other era, men have surpassed women because of their superior strength.

Catz Part Deux said:

More evidence that you didn't read the article. The article didn't suggest that men or women were better. The article was primarily about societal changes that have given women an edge in terms of competing in the marketplace and educationally. Basically, the article suggested that woman are better AT POSTINDUSTRIAL PROFESSIONAL ROLES than men. NOt that women are better overall. In almost every other era, men have surpassed women because of their superior strength.

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That's what I was saying earlier. Some people are so terrified at the thought of equality between sexes that they misinterpret what they read whether it be due to paranoia or on purpose. The mere thought of not being on top is just terrifying to some.

Dr_Patrick said:

That's what I was saying earlier. Some people are so terrified at the thought of equality between sexes that they misinterpret what they read whether it be due to paranoia or on purpose. The mere thought of not being on top is just terrifying to some.

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I think, many have still not come to understand that people can be different, but equal. One type has to be better, as far as they can see. This is what I can never understand. Why in 2010 with all the education and information that is available, is it still like this.

Dr_Patrick said:

I know exactly what you mean. I'm glad things are steadily progressing, though, despite attempts by others to keep things the same.

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Maybe, people always resist change. It does involve taking risks, afterall. It seems that something has to reach crisis level to the point of being unbearable, before many will risk change.

Mell said:

I think, many have still not come to understand that people can be different, but equal. One type has to be better, as far as they can see. This is what I can never understand. Why in 2010 with all the education and information that is available, is it still like this.

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Sadly, I think the need to feel superior is a part of the ego and thus a part of human nature.

Mell said:

I think, many have still not come to understand that people can be different, but equal. One type has to be better, as far as they can see. This is what I can never understand. Why in 2010 with all the education and information that is available, is it still like this.

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I don't understand it, either. My boyfriend and I have zero conflicts in this area. We're on the same team, no competition is necessary.


One thing I've noticed is that guys in fields like law enforcement and the military often have the least traditional views in this regard, because they're used to working side by side with women in their field, and seeing women perform the same work. It's odd, but the more masculine the work is, the less insecure they seem to be about female equality.

I've noticed this in the guys that I work with (and my boyfriend is military). it doesn't hold true for all, but if you think about it, the military was racially integrated far before the rest of private industry was.

Catz Part Deux said:

I think that my boyfriend is actually a lot more sensitive to women's issues, for the most part, than I am. I've spent so long in male-dominated fields that when i see cases where women are in the trenches, breaking new ground, and are dealing with men making rude comments, I'm like, "The women should just suck it up and grow some balls. How did they think it would be to work in NASCAR (or insert any other stereotypically male place of business)?"

I've really never wanted anything but to be treated like one of the guys and given the same opportunities to show that I can earn my own place.

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''I think that my boyfriend is actually a lot more sensitive to women's issues, for the most part, than I am.''
Yeah, he has spent a lot of time learning about social political issues. It does take a women to see what is happening to other women, but he is interested, and does listen when women explain it. He has one friend who has taken womens feminist studies. When she found out just how much sexism there is, she couldnt stop being blazingly angry for a long time. He listened to it all. I had the same experience with the anger, as I found out more and more. Now, I tend to most of the time have a weary patience, and anger when I hear something particularly disgusting.

''...dealing with men making rude comments...''
I became allergic to sexist comments long ago. I think, once you get allergic to them, you want to puke every time you hear one.

I never cared about being treated like one of the boys, but I do and did want the freedom to live my life the way I want to live it.

Catz Part Deux said:

I don't understand it, either. My boyfriend and I have zero conflicts in this area. We're on the same team, no competition is necessary.

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Maybe you found him, because you wouldnt put up with a man who is sexist. I know I wouldnt. I wouldnt be able to live with somebody like that, let alone love them.

Mell said:

Yeah, he has spent a lot of time learning about social political issues. It does take a women to see what is happening to other women, but he is interested, and does listen when women explain it. He has one friend who has taken womens feminist studies. When she found out just how much sexism there is, she couldnt stop being blazingly angry for a long time. He listened to it all. I had the same experience with the anger, as I found out more and more. Now, I tend to most of the time have a weary patience, and anger when I hear something particularly disgusting.

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I didn't read about it. I lived it. I was one of the first women in my field, and remain one of the few. i don't feel angry, I feel proud of my toughness. Part of the reason I do the job I do is so that my daughter won't have to justify her choices to anyone. I feel exceptionally good about being able to prove that women can do anything we want to do, professionally, and be just as successful at it as a man can.

I became allergic to sexist comments long ago. I think, once you get allergic to them, you want to puke every time you hear one.

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If you work with a bunch of guys, you soon learn that they pick on everyone equally. Having a vagina isn't really that different from having red hair. In that environment, everyone catches some **** occasionally, you just have to learn to laugh at yourself, and then pick it up and throw it back. It's a male thing I think, it's about establishing the pecking order in the group. You just have to show them that your dick is every bit as big as theirs (even if it's invisible). I use that terminology, but what I mean is that my heart, my brain, my character is every bit as big as any guy I've ever worked with. Most of them figured that out pretty quickly.

What I learned is that if you get offended at the little games, they win. You have to play the game better than they do. Then, after a while, you don't get anymore **** thrown at you. You win! They bow before your superior greatness (or at least, acknowledge that you are their equal, which is THE BEST).

I never cared about being treated like one of the boys, but I do and did want the freedom to live my life the way I want to live it.

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Being treated like one of the boys means that my gender becomes removed from the equation. I'm evaluated on one thing, and one thing only: Can I do the job? That's all I've ever wanted, to just be judged on my merits.

Dr_Patrick said:

Sadly, I think the need to feel superior is a part of the ego and thus a part of human nature.

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If it is part of human nature, then why are there some people who are not rascist or sexist? I think, it is about greed. Some are so greedy, that they will even brain wash themselves into thinking they are more deserving of a bigger share of the worlds resources, for any reason at all, be it skin colour, gender...

Mell said:

Maybe you found him, because you wouldnt put up with a man who is sexist. I know I wouldnt. I wouldnt be able to live with somebody like that, let alone love them.

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I did put up with someone who is sexist for 12 years. I was quite unhappily married to a serial cheater who couched his misogyny in religious abuse. NEVER. AGAIN.

Mell said:

If it is part of human nature, then why are there some people who are not rascist or sexist? I think, it is about greed. Some are so greedy, that they will even brain wash themselves into thinking they are more deserving of a bigger share of the worlds resources, for any reason at all, be it skin colour, gender...

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I actually think it is a matter of our innate personal tendencies. I'm a big fan of Meyers Briggs Theory. Our personality determines how we see the world. Those of us who are N's (intuitives) tend not to be so tribal. The S's, though, they're very black/white. Everyone who is not like them is a threat.

Catz Part Deux said:

I didn't read about it. I lived it. I was one of the first women in my field, and remain one of the few.

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There is lots of sexism about which is difficult to spot, because we are so used to it. For example, the way the media portray women and what it puts into societies subconsious unnoticed.

megaprogman said:

At least those few men will be getting lots of sex!

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not like what i am getting right now which is none!

But truth be told women always choose a select few to have sex with and those guys have had sex with 1000s of women.

Catz Part Deux said:

If you work with a bunch of guys, you soon learn that they pick on everyone equally. Having a vagina isn't really that different from having red hair. In that environment, everyone catches some **** occasionally, you just have to learn to pick it up and throw it back.

What I learned is that if you get offended, they win. You have to play the game better than they do. Then, after a while, you don't get anymore **** thrown at you. You win the internet!

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I wouldnt want to build an expectation that all women have to put with this though. That is what would happen if I tough it out, when somebody is being sexist, rather than pushing for a rule to be made against it, to protect women.

Mell said:

There is lots of sexism about which is difficult to spot, because we are so used to it. For example, the way the media portray women and what it puts into societies subconsious unnoticed.

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You know what, Mellie? I really don't have time to get all riled up about that sort of thing. I'm too busy being equal.

Plus, while I can kick ass, I do love some pretty shoes and I can rock that sexy secretary look like nobody's business.

Catz Part Deux said:

Money quote: With few exceptions, the greater the power of women, the greater the country’s economic success.

Any thoughts on where we're headed culturally?

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Most women study stuff like Business, Liberal Arts, Education. What they don't study engineering, science, IT men do. Also I have met many business students that are males who are management and fairly important people. They are far from being equal opportunists meaning they bash women a lot and would never respect them. Until I see an equal number or greater of women studiny engineering and the sciences that is when i will admit they are dominating men. Until then it is a MAN'S world.

rivrrat said:

With artificial insemination easier and easier to get and afford, I think we'll just be keeping some men around as sex slaves. If and when we decide to let them out of their cages.

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Hell, figure out how to open jars first...then we'll talk about world dominance. Oh yeah...and killing spiders...

The report isnt all that surprising actually. The role of men has been being redefined for a looooong time now. Some of that is good, some of that is not so good. One thing we know about societies...they typically live down to their expectations. So while I dont see ALL men turning in their man card, i can certainly see a lot of them doing it already.