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Obama Seeking "Ass To Kick" Over Oil Spill

@TacticalEvilDan:

Thank you very much for your support for my nation. I can't speak for all Germans, naturally, but personally, I consider it my responsibility keeping the memory of the immeasurable crimes committed in the name of my nation alife and never forget them. Not because of shame (I don't feel ashamed, because I am not personally responsible), but because of the responsible not to repeat these errors again. In fact, many of my political stances are at least partially based on this aspect of my national identity: Strong respect for inviolable human rights and a free political system, for example.

I am very thankful that America, together with the other Western allies, liberated my country in 1945 and allowed us to build up a new Germany on the ruins of the old, with the intention of making it a free, democratic country with strong respect for civil and human rights. I think this has generally been successful, although of course there are shortcomings, like there are in any other free, democratic system. But I believe to know these shortcomings are not worse than elsewhere in the free world.

I know there are ignorant Germans. There are also hateful Germans, bigoted or self-righteous. But in this case as well, I like to believe their number is not higher than in other free countries.

Also, I am aware such people exist in America too. Some postings in this thread are a good documentation for that point. But I don't jump to the conclusion that most or even all Americans are like that, although I am yet a bit surprised how quickly they came out of the woods here, even without excessive baiting or provocation. I don't think my country or people is better than America and its people, although of course, I like my country, I am fond of it and when facing the choice, I would rather live in Germany than in the USA. But I don't think anybody could blame me for that, or take that as a basis for accusing me of suprematism.

I will try to evaluate and answer arguments respectfully brought up here regardless of the person who advances them, or if his or her nationality. And I hope this favor will be returned. If I happen to be a dick after all some time, that's probably not meant as a nationalistic attack on my opponent's nationality, but directed at the individual regardless of nationality. :p
 
German guy said:
@TacticalEvilDan:

Thank you very much for your support for my nation. I can't speak for all Germans, naturally, but personally, I consider it my responsibility keeping the memory of the immeasurable crimes committed in the name of my nation alife and never forget them. Not because of shame (I don't feel ashamed, because I am not personally responsible), but because of the responsible not to repeat these errors again. In fact, many of my political stances are at least partially based on this aspect of my national identity: Strong respect for inviolable human rights and a free political system, for example.
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Rare is the nation that is without its own historical embarrassments. It is good to remember them so that, as with individual mistakes, we can learn and grow from them.

German guy said:
I am very thankful that America, together with the other Western allies, liberated my country in 1945 and allowed us to build up a new Germany on the ruins of the old, with the intention of making it a free, democratic country with strong respect for civil and human rights.
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America has had its own key moments where the assistance or intervention of another nation shaped its history. We owe our very existence to the French, as much as many would care (or simply do not know) that fact.

German guy said:
I think this has generally been successful, although of course there are shortcomings, like there are in any other free, democratic system. But I believe to know these shortcomings are not worse than elsewhere in the free world.
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Pretty much.

German guy said:
I know there are ignorant Germans. There are also hateful Germans, bigoted or self-righteous. But in this case as well, I like to believe their number is not higher than in other free countries.

Also, I am aware such people exist in America too. Some postings in this thread are a good documentation for that point. But I don't jump to the conclusion that most or even all Americans are like that, although I am yet a bit surprised how quickly they came out of the woods here, even without excessive baiting or provocation. I don't think my country or people is better than America and its people, although of course, I like my country, I am fond of it and when facing the choice, I would rather live in Germany than in the USA. But I don't think anybody could blame me for that, or take that as a basis for accusing me of suprematism.
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I hear you loud and clear.

German guy said:
I will try to evaluate and answer arguments respectfully brought up here regardless of the person who advances them, or if his or her nationality. And I hope this favor will be returned. If I happen to be a dick after all some time, that's probably not meant as a nationalistic attack on my opponent's nationality, but directed at the individual regardless of nationality. :p
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That's good of you. Just be aware of the fact that your German nationality, or at least the fact that you exist somewhere in the Eurozone, is going to be used against you on a regular basis whether you take potshots at someone else's nationality or not.

It's not fair, it's not right, and it's not particularly mature, but it's going to happen.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
That's good of you. Just be aware of the fact that your German nationality, or at least the fact that you exist somewhere in the Eurozone, is going to be used against you on a regular basis whether you take potshots at someone else's nationality or not.

It's not fair, it's not right, and it's not particularly mature, but it's going to happen.
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Thanks for your warning. I used to post on other websites with a dominantly American population before and I'm used to it. Most of the time, those were just more or less friendly attacks, nice and fun, nothing personal, just the obligatory Nazi joke here and there. I can live with that. And sometimes, there are more or less friendly attacks that contain a true core and may hit close to home, which made me think and learn. Most Americans can laugh about an occasional snippy remark about an American stereotype too.

But I am sure that sometimes, I will encounter the harder cases too. I suspect Americans would encounter similar reactions if they posted on a German web board (which probably hardly ever happens, since there are many more Germans speaking English than vice versa :p). Usually, I don't take it personally and try not to take it too seriously either.
 
German guy said:
Just want to step in and say no harm was done, and I have no ill feelings. Yes, I think Zimmer's statements were rather ignorant and rude, but he's at least right when he says this kind of thing occurs on both sides of the ocean. I'm sure there are pretty ignorant and rude Germans too, who'd say similar things about the US.

Anyway, I hope after this has settled, we can have a good debate. All nice and fun, and civil.
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Wow.. You are a classy guy:)
 
zimmer said:
Most couldn't tell who the key players are, but I can tell you who they are, what party, their general platform, and their modern history. I'm even well enough versed to be able to rattle on about regional politics. Even obscure facts such as the state parliament in Schleswig-Holstein allowing the Danish based party to sit members that won seats even if they don't crack the 5% threshold.

In fact, I would venture I know German politics, the German Press and Germany far better than most Germans.

.
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I would love to create and have a game show: Who Knows Germany Better: Germans or Zimmer.
 
lizzie said:
Maybe it's just me, but it's embarrassing to have a president that acts like a punk teenager looking for some ass to kick. I've never before seen a president who so consistently publicly chides citizens who don't agree with him, and acts like he's some kind of personal arbiter of good and bad. Jeez- are there any grown-ups running the country anymore?
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Er well there is Joe Biden, but at the moment he has decided to swan off and watch a Soccer Match in South Africa, go figure!
 
MrVicchio said:
Or we could sit around flailing waiting for the "Gov't" to fix everything.

40 years ago, when a Hurricane hit a city, people rebuilt. Now? They wait around for Uncle Sam to fix everything for them. See the problem there? Probably not.
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A Hurricane is a force of nature, neither Obama nor this Oil spill are natural occurances instead both are due to the actions of people.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
The Holocaust was over 6 decades ago. I'm pretty sure that the Germany of today is not the Germany of the 1930s.

Besides, six decades ago, there were lots of places in the United States where being both black and out after sundown earned you a severe beating -- or worse. We're not ones to throw stones about recent history.

So far as it goes with the Berlin Wall, that wasn't Germany's fault so much as it was a consequence of the fact that the United States and Russia divided the nation of Germany between themselves.

Even were I wrong about all that, which I most definitely am not, that doesn't change the fact that what I said earlier is also right, and that you apparently are unable to address my argument on its own merit -- you're forced to set yourself up a straw man.

Well, good luck with that sucker, but it won't keep the rooks out of the corn. :lol:
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Slavery ended over 150 decades ago and we still can't seem to hear the end of that; as German Guy has exhibited with accusations of racism, of people that he dosen't even know anything about. So save the, "the Germans are soooo much different people now", crap for someone who doesn't know any better.
 
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apdst said:
Slavery ended over 150 decades ago and we still can't seem to hear the end of that; as German Guy has exhibited with accusations of racism, of people that he dosen't even know anything about. So save the, "the Germans are soooo much different people now", crap for someone who doesn't know any better.
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Slavery ended in 500 AD? Speaking of someone who doesn't know anyTHING.... :doh :lamo
 
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Slavery ended over 150 decades ago and we still can't seem to hear the end of that.
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Another product of the public school system, I presume? :roll:
 
Glinda said:
Slavery ended in 500 AD? Speaking of someone who doesn't know anyTHING.... :doh :lamo
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Obviously his point was that slavery ended 150 years (roughly) ago and that we as a country still seem incapable of getting over that. So by extension it is not illogical to guess that perhaps within Germany an event of the magnitude of the Holocaust only 60 years ago (roughly) would still leave lasting scars on the nation.
 
apdst said:
Slavery ended over 150 decades ago and we still can't seem to hear the end of that; as German Guy has exhibited with accusations of racism, of people that he dosen't even know anything about. So save the, "the Germans are soooo much different people now", crap for someone who doesn't know any better.
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I had to thank you for this post. I have not had a good laugh like that in days. Thanks again!
 
German guy said:
It's ironic that you would name FOX News of all sources as a good example for balanced quality media in the US. (Assuming you are not joking here -- although I'm inclined to believe you are, because nobody with a clear mind could possible be serious about it.)

I think there is really not much I need to add, such a statement speaks volumes.
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How often do yo watch fox news?
 
NolaMan said:
Obviously his point was that slavery ended 150 years (roughly) ago and that we as a country still seem incapable of getting over that. So by extension it is not illogical to guess that perhaps within Germany an event of the magnitude of the Holocaust only 60 years ago (roughly) would still leave lasting scars on the nation.
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His original point was that 2010 Germany and its people are not to be taken seriously and are not worthy of standing up for because of what happened during WWII. For some weird reason, we're supposed to equate 2010 Germany with 1940 Germany as if the enormous changes that have rocked that country in the last 60 years never happened. That was one of the most ridiculous things I've read on DP since I joined.
 
German guy said:
It's ironic that you would name FOX News of all sources as a good example for balanced quality media in the US. (Assuming you are not joking here -- although I'm inclined to believe you are, because nobody with a clear mind could possible be serious about it.)

I think there is really not much I need to add, such a statement speaks volumes.
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No mein freund, your take on FOX perfectly illustrates what I mean about German media and the typical German.

Germany would do well to have it own version of FOX. They really would.

I've often joked that I'd love to do a conservative styled radio show in Germany, but would probably have to fear for my safety if I was even allowed.

The show would be en endless exposure of the German Welfare State and the screw the country Die Gruene Partei, their Communists cousins in Die Linke Partei. I'd lump the SDP in with the Commi's, calling them Commi-Lighter, the CSU/CDU Real-Lite Commi's, and the FDP as those who were the only party of hope, sanity and responsibility.

FOXNEWS from Salon.com
The real Fox News Democrats - Fox News - Salon.com
"I think there are some liberals who are extremely biased about Fox News," says Alan Colmes, the liberal half of "Hannity & Colmes," "and wish to shun it or wish to criticize any liberal who appears on Fox News. That, to me, is not a particularly liberal attitude."
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Kirsten Powers, a Democratic strategist who is a Fox News political analyst (and who has written for Salon), says she thinks that "If you're going to follow Howard Dean's 50-state strategy, which, last time I checked, most of the bloggers supported, then it seems sort of strange to me to be disregarding the top cable news network. From a strategic standpoint, it doesn't really make sense to me."
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I howled my ass off reading the article, as they list Democrat after Democrat that appears on FOXNEWS.
Then claim they aren't the right Democrats.
ROTFLOL.

Libs are tolerant, so long as they get their way.

Interesting bit lately with Merkel and Guido the Torpedo.
.
 
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Zimmer, you're comparing apple and oranges when you try to compare the European political landscape and the European media to yours. From your stand point, everything over here looks left. From our standpoint, you guys don't even have a left. I mean even our SVP/UDC right wing party here in Switzerland seems center left compared to your so called "left".
 
Proof he is out of his class. He is lost in terms of his behavior. He never has the American flag behind him in his press conferences. He does not have the knowledge and will to stop smoking, he bows to other leaders (he is not and never will be a leader). He is at best an embarrassment to this once great nation. He is only a golden voice boy and like the pide piper he lead people to follow him. Well some did and look where we are. He will be run out of office in the next election and that is a guarantee.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Just be aware of the fact that your German nationality, or at least the fact that you exist somewhere in the Eurozone, is going to be used against you on a regular basis whether you take potshots at someone else's nationality or not.

It's not fair, it's not right, and it's not particularly mature, but it's going to happen.
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Like Conservatives get continually crapped on by the Eurozone.
Were you around during the Reagan years? I was, and spent a good portion of my time in Europe.
Were you politically aware during the Bush 43 years?
Same crap, same posters, same BS as with Reagan.

They love our weak leaders. Clinton, Carter, Obama are all studs in Euroland... all dicks at home.

I know Europe, and their tendency toward the US is arrogance, and arrogant for the most part. They think we're a bunch of dumb hayseeds.
I have no qualms stating it as it is. Germans are badly informed and have a narrow press corps. It is a sewer pipe.
It serves the general public very badly, as the discussion is limited and the mentality intolerant.

.
 
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Arcana XV said:
Zimmer, you're comparing apple and oranges when you try to compare the European political landscape and the European media to yours. From your stand point, everything over here looks left. From our standpoint, you guys don't even have a left. I mean even our SVP/UDC right wing party here in Switzerland seems center left compared to your so called "left".
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Our press are a bunch of EuroZone wannabe's and have been for decades.
They've assisted in the institution of all manner of socialist baggage on the nation, and we're drowning in debt because of it.
Like the Euro press, they're propagandists.

I have good friends in Switzerland, don't follow their politics a lot, was happy to see the latest vote with regard to Swiss banking regs were upheld in the lower parliament, but it seems for the wrong reasons.

As far as media... what is wrong with having something broad?
In the US we had leftist networks for decades until FOX came along, and when Reagan was elected neither FOX nor conservative talk radio existed.

I'd say we had oranges and oranges before. Now we have apples and oranges merely because the new media in the US has offered two sides of the equation.

Don't believe me, read the following. Hell, we even had a major Leftist network and Newspaper try to swing a presidential election in its dying days.
Fineman: 'Mainstream Media Party' is over - Howard Fineman- msnbc.com

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zimmer said:
Our press are a bunch of EuroZone wannabe's and have been for decades.
They've assisted in the institution of all manner of socialist baggage on the nation, and we're drowning in debt because of it.
Like the Euro press, they're propagandists.

I have good friends in Switzerland, don't follow their politics a lot, was happy to see the latest vote with regard to Swiss banking regs were upheld in the lower parliament, but it seems for the wrong reasons.

As far as media... what is wrong with having something broad?
In the US we had leftist networks for decades until FOX came along, and when Reagan was elected neither FOX nor conservative talk radio existed.

I'd say we had oranges and oranges before. Now we have apples and oranges merely because the new media in the US has offered two sides of the equation.

Don't believe me, read the following. Hell, we even had a major Leftist network and Newspaper try to swing a presidential election in its dying days.
Fineman: 'Mainstream Media Party' is over - Howard Fineman- msnbc.com

.
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If your press was really a bunch of Eurozone wannabes you would have the broad range of newspapers that we have. All your newspapers are either center-right or center-left. You don't really have rightwing newspapers like we do, nor do you have socialist or communist newspapers either. All your press is pretty much centrist. I don't understand how you can think that you have a broad range of opinions. With the exception of FOX on cable news and talk radio, I don't see much variety at all.
 
zimmer said:
I know Europe, and their tendency toward the US is arrogance, and arrogant for the most part. They think we're a bunch of dumb hayseeds.

Like Conservatives get continually crapped on by the Eurozone.
Were you around during the Reagan years? I was, and spent a good portion of my time in Europe.
Were you politically aware during the Bush 43 years?
Same crap, same posters, same BS as with Reagan.
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I agree with you. At least partially, there is a rather ignorant attitude of Europeans against the US, or at least the right in the US. Many left-leaning people in Europe have different values and attitudes than the American right, which leads to criticism that often is ignorant and becomes arrogance and self-righteousness.

But two things: This problem is definitely not limited to the European side. From what I can see, the problem is not any better when it comes to ignorance, arrogance and self-righteousness of the American right towards Europe.

Remember the hatred advanced against Germany and especially France, when those two countries opposed the Iraq war? As I see it, there were very good and legitimate reasons to oppose the war. Still, we were labelled "terrorist sympathizers", "anti-American", accused of "appeasement", called "socialists". Remember the "Freedom Fries"?

Tell me you yankees are any less ignorant or arrogant when it comes to your opinions of those "cheese eating surrender monkeys".

Second: Just because European criticism of the American right often is arrogant, it doesn't mean it always is, and it doesn't mean there is no legitimate criticism or no valid, good arguments against policies by the American right. In fact, much criticism against Bush's Iraq war for example , from what I can see, was rather level-headed and valid. The anti-American sentiment just was often shriller, not more numerous.

So unless you say the American right and Bush is generally beyond criticism (which would make you a partisan hack), you should acknowledge that it's legitimate to criticize him and be of a different opinion, even when you happen to be European.

They love our weak leaders. Clinton, Carter, Obama are all studs in Euroland... all dicks at home.
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It's perfectly legitimate that you don't like these Presidents. But last time I checked, there are quite a few Americans who are fond of them (well, at least of Clinton and Obama), while there are also quite a few Americans who are not so fond of Reagan or Bush.

If you have a different opinion, fine, that's your right. But if you said it's illegitimate by default to be fond of liberal Presidents, that would make you, with all due respect, a partisan hack.

I have no qualms stating it as it is. Germans are badly informed and have a narrow press corps. It is a sewer pipe.
It serves the general public very badly, as the discussion is limited and the mentality intolerant.

.
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Here I beg to differ. It's true, we don't have anything like right-wing talk radio here. That's simply because a religious right does not exist here at all. We simply don't have right-wingers here who would make such a program, nor people to consume it. There is no market for it.

We do have a wide variety of different political leaning and degree of quality when it comes to newspapers. "Neues Deutschland" is a far-left paper, so is "Junge Welt". "Junge Freiheit" is a far-right paper where even neo-Nazis sometimes have their space. There is the alternative, environmentalist "tageszeitung" and the populist mainstream tabloid "Bild". There are quality papers like the conservative "FAZ" or the liberal "SZ". There are weekly papers like the mainstream "Spiegel" or the highbrow "Zeit".

You don't think American far-right pro-Bush/pro-Republican opinions are advanced in Germany? Ever heard of the main editor of the weekly "Die Zeit", Josef Joffe? Or freelance writer Henryk Broder, who often writes for "Spiegel"?

While Germany may be lacking the extreme right wing of American opinions, I think it's safe to say that in return, America is totally lacking genuinely socialist or even social democratic opinions. So we're even. ;)
 
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