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Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

Why is it bad to conduct an investigation? Civilians have died, it's a serious incident, a neutral inquiry should be conducted to see if errors have been made.

Just wondering. Did you call for an investgigation when terrorists killed 80 people in the house of worship in Pakistan? Did you call for an investigation when Iran murdered it's own citizens for demonstrating? If not, why not.
 
Actually, I think the IDF would be far more "neutral" than the idiots at the UN..... (not saying the IDF would be neutral at all..... if you get my meaning)

Why do you think the UN would be less neutral?
 
Just wondering. Did you call for an investgigation when terrorists killed 80 people in the house of worship in Pakistan?

I think it's Al Quaeda who did this, and I think there is an investigation. No one says there should be no investigation on AQ.


Did you call for an investigation when Iran murdered it's own citizens for demonstrating? If not, why not.

I don't think there was an investigation because it was quite clear that the Iranian regime was guilty, Iran has been condemned and this is a good thing.
 
I always find it odd how if you say any other country did something wrong, it's acceptable, but when you say that Israel might have acted in a less than ideal manor, you are anti-Israel and anti-Jew.

Exactly. I think that the pro-Israel side of the on-going discussion has done a very good job of clinging to and amplifying the victimhood of the Jewish people in history and tying that to Israel as a nation. And it has been done in such a way as to invoke anti-Semitism sentiments as a condemnation for even thinking to question Israel let alone criticize it.

Frankly, at this point, the questions of historical victimization of the Jewish people and of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict are separate issues, entirely. They have nothing to do with each other.
 
Why do you think the UN would be less neutral?

The UN has, in it's statements so far, not been really neutral on the situation to my mind. There would at the very least be an appearance of pre-judging. The same holds true for any Israeli group doing an investigation. This kinda points to the problem, which is that most have strong opinions about Israel, and as such, it would be hard to get a really independent, neutral investigation.
 
Who cares who leads the investigation. It's so politisized now whoever comes out wrong won't be wrong to one side, and whoever is right won't be right to the other. Therefore the truth shall never be known.
 
Exactly. I think that the pro-Israel side of the on-going discussion has done a very good job of clinging to and amplifying the victimhood of the Jewish people in history and tying that to Israel as a nation. And it has been done in such a way as to invoke anti-Semitism sentiments as a condemnation for even thinking to question Israel let alone criticize it.

Frankly, at this point, the questions of historical victimization of the Jewish people and of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict are separate issues, entirely. They have nothing to do with each other.

I have to respectfully disagree on this point. The Jewish people do not rejoice that their history is filled with these tragedies. Israel was borne out of their experience in Europe in the 20th century.
Not sure what you think the alternative should be for the Jews in Israel. They will not allow themselves to be walked into the ovens that Europe gave them, they will not try and go back to ME countries that expelled them.
 
I have to respectfully disagree on this point. The Jewish people do not rejoice that their history is filled with these tragedies. Israel was borne out of their experience in Europe in the 20th century.
Not sure what you think the alternative should be for the Jews in Israel. They will not allow themselves to be walked into the ovens that Europe gave them, they will not try and go back to ME countries that expelled them.

This is hyperbole. No one is Europe is trying to stick them in ovens again. It's those type of over the top comments from people on both sides that makes conversations about Israel difficult.
 
I have to respectfully disagree on this point. The Jewish people do not rejoice that their history is filled with these tragedies. Israel was borne out of their experience in Europe in the 20th century.
Not sure what you think the alternative should be for the Jews in Israel. They will not allow themselves to be walked into the ovens that Europe gave them, they will not try and go back to ME countries that expelled them.

I didn't once say anything about forgetting the tragedies and atrocities that happened to the Jewish people. Nor did I make any attempt to paint their remembrance as a celebration of those tragedies. However, the invocation of these events as a means of shutting down debate about the Israel/Palestine conflict or any question of Israel at all is tiresome, cheap and classless at this point. The chances of another country making confections of starving and beaten Jews in giant ovens is almost nil. The victimhood of the Jews of Europe has little or nothing to do with the conflict going on between Palestine and Israel so many decades later.
 
Here is a POV of what the Israeli's think of Germany... it may seem trivial, but is revealing.

During the Eurovision song contest, where a young German girl won, and won over a lot of Europe, she got the top vote (points) from 12 countries.
She won by a pretty big margin, some 60 plus points.

Israel gave her 0 points.

Telling Israeli's to go back to Iron Curtain countries and Germany is nutso. But free speech has its benefits... it reveals both brilliance and lunacy.

.
 
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um. duh? the existance of Israel is racism? largest voting bloc, the Arab states?
 
I didn't once say anything about forgetting the tragedies and atrocities that happened to the Jewish people. Nor did I make any attempt to paint their remembrance as a celebration of those tragedies. However, the invocation of these events as a means of shutting down debate about the Israel/Palestine conflict or any question of Israel at all is tiresome, cheap and classless at this point. The chances of another country making confections of starving and beaten Jews in giant ovens is almost nil. The victimhood of the Jews of Europe has little or nothing to do with the conflict going on between Palestine and Israel so many decades later.

I don't know you so can't know any motivations. That being said, when I read the type of things you write I have to wonder. Putting aside who is pro/ anti anything we all have read that Hamas calls for wiping out Israel. You hear the same thing in Lebanon and Iran. Do you really hear about the majority of Israelies who want to kill all the people around them.

Why is it that Israel the Israeli economy, burdened by war costs both in people and treasure has blossomed while the people around them live in misery. Has Israel held down the economy in Syria, Iran, Lebanon etc.

I think if there was a way Israel could be assured of living in peace, without the constant threat of destruction they would sign up in a minute.

Getting on to your personal attacks which I would expect the moderators to deal with. I have not tried to shut down debate, just enter some historical insight for those who might not appreciate why many people of the boomer age and older understand what can happen, even when most people say it can never happen.
 
Exactly. I think that the pro-Israel side of the on-going discussion has done a very good job of clinging to and amplifying the victimhood of the Jewish people in history and tying that to Israel as a nation. And it has been done in such a way as to invoke anti-Semitism sentiments as a condemnation for even thinking to question Israel let alone criticize it.

Frankly, at this point, the questions of historical victimization of the Jewish people and of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict are separate issues, entirely. They have nothing to do with each other.

Today I was a bit curious about the POV of the Jewish people of Belgium about the raid on the flotilla, so I listened the podcast of "radio judaica"

Podcasts Radio Judaica Belgique

They talk about the raid on the flotilla. What they say is really neutral until they talk about an Arab Israeli member of Parliament:

(litteral transcription of what the host says)

"(name of the Israeli Arab MEP) has not hesited to call (the Israeli raid) "a massacre", I remember you that he is a member of the Knesset. He has added that "the world should react with severity about this intervention", an intervention made by a country where he is a MEP and where he is living"

So the basic message is that when you're a member of the Knesset you don't have the right to be critical towards Israel.

...and I believed that it was the role of the Parliament to control what the Government does...
 
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Today I was a bit curious about the POV of the Jewish people of Belgium about the raid on the flotilla, so I listened the podcast of "radio judaica"

Podcasts Radio Judaica Belgique

They talk about the raid on the flotilla. What they say is really neutral until they talk about an Arab Israeli member of Parliament:

(litteral transcription of what the host says)

"(name of the Israeli Arab MEP) has not hesited to call (the Israeli raid) "a massacre", I remember you that he is a member of the Knesset. He has added that "the world should react with severity about this intervention", an intervention made by a country where he is a MEP and where he is living"

So the basic message is that when you're a member of the Knesset you don't have the right to be critical towards Israel.

...and I believed that it was the role of the Parliament to control what the Government does...

How about the fact that an Israeli Arab is allowed to be a member of parliment. How well have Jews and Christians done in Arab nations.
 
How about the fact that an Israeli Arab is allowed to be a member of parliment. How well have Jews and Christians done in Arab nations.

That's exactly the message of the host: "you're an Arab in Israel, so be glad that we allow you to be here. Now don't make too much noise or we'll deport you"

You're absolutely right when you state that there are no Jews or Christians in Arab Parliaments (well, except the defence minister of Saddam Hussein, who was Christian) but no one pretends that these Arab countries are democracies.
 
Does that give them special rights?

Just a fact. Does that give them less rights? America is still killing Muslims by the boatload almost daily for an attack 9 years ago.

The position as I understand it is Israel has no right of defense as rockets continue to try to kill civilians.

It is this cavalier attitude towards people who openly want to kill people for being offense of being Jewish that I find troublesome. Not sure I understand the morality.
 
God will bless nations that bless Israel.

Genesis 12:3

I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. All the families of the earth will be blessed through you."
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-Thomas Jefferson
 
Just a fact. Does that give them less rights? America is still killing Muslims by the boatload almost daily for an attack 9 years ago.

The position as I understand it is Israel has no right of defense as rockets continue to try to kill civilians.

It is this cavalier attitude towards people who openly want to kill people for being offense of being Jewish that I find troublesome. Not sure I understand the morality.

No one says that Israel does not have the right to defend itself, people say that it should be done with proportionality

Israelis_killed_by_Palestinians_in_Israel_and_Palestinians_killed_by_Israelis_in_Gaza_-_2008.png


One more problem is that, as several posters have said in this thread, criticism of Israel is too often dismissed as "anti-semitism". When people say that Belgian para-commandos should not have tortured a Somali kid on 1993 or that the same soldiers should have done something about the Rwandan genocide in 1994, or that there is a serious democratic deficit when all the Walloon parties team up, no one says that it is "anti-Belgianism".
 
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Heck, given the current anti-Isreal climate of the administration, Anti-semetism is back in vogue? :ssst:
Who, in this administration, is anti-semitic?

The USA is one of the few (if not the only one) countries that did not condemn the IDF raid
So what? You said the admin is anti-semitic, wouldn't the anti-semites come out against the IDF actions?
Why is it bad to conduct an investigation? Civilians have died, it's a serious incident, a neutral inquiry should be conducted to see if errors have been made.
:lol: who should investigate? the UN? Please....
So you believe the investigation to be worthless but you'd like to use the White House's backing of it to bash the admin?
 
No one says that Israel does not have the right to defend itself, people say that it should be done with proportionality

Israelis_killed_by_Palestinians_in_Israel_and_Palestinians_killed_by_Israelis_in_Gaza_-_2008.png


One more problem is that, as several posters have said in this thread, criticism of Israel is too often dismissed as "anti-semitism". When people say that Belgian para-commandos should not have tortured a Somali kid on 1993 or that the same soldiers should have done something about the Rwandan genocide in 1994, or that there is a serious democratic deficit when all the Walloon parties team up, no one says that it is "anti-Belgianism".

Let me take your last point first. I have not accused anyone of anti-semitism. Some like to accuse folks of doing that, no idea why.

As to your proportionality issue. To be honest I find it almost incredible. Would the world be happier with Israel if they did not build shelters for their kids. Allowed more to get killed to even up the score.

What level of kill to be killed is acceptable to you? Pretty silly question I think. When I see responses such as these from intelligent people I do question where they are coming from.
 
The USA is one of the few (if not the only one) countries that did not condemn the IDF raid


That's good, because there's nothing to condemn.

Turkey should have never allowed Turkish flagged ships to attempt to run the IDF blockade.
 
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