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Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

RightinNYC said:
Ah, yes, that's why they shot people on all of the boats, and why they were under strict orders not to use anything more dangerous than a painball unless they were fired upon.
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Then where are the guns that were onboard the ship? IDF claimed to have found them then said no they werent there, which is it?

The IDF claims the people on-board the ship took away their guns? In what world is that happening? Peace activists with little or no military training disarming trained IDF commandos? I dont buy that for a second and frankly I think the expectation that anyone should believe that is insulting.

:rofl I'm not talking about Al-Jazeera's unnamed sources, I'm talking about the actual video of the actual events where you can see the activists attacking the IDF soldiers.
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Again, watch the video. AlJazeera's cameras were there during the fighting as were their journalists.

YouTube - israeli soldiers attacked by mob

YouTube - Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers
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Yes, the protesters did resist the IDF, I was incorrect about that earlier. However, such resistance in international waters is legal as what the IDF did was an act of piracy.

And again, they didn't fire live ammunition until they reported being fired on first. You can hear the conversations on the videos.
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From guns they never found.

Try watching the videos before you make demonstrably false claims like this. There are several videos that clearly show this. They've uploaded a dozen videos in the past day:
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I do not trust the IDF. They lied through their teeth during Cast Lead, they're publishing the most ludicrous stories about what happened here. Their credibility is shot.

Oh, well so long as you say so.
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Damn straight I do. The IDF is highly trained to deal with EXACTLY this kind of situation and again any idiot knows that.

And yet it's not a kitchen knife.
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So what? Knives are used for a myriad of different things besides killing people.

Yes, Israel shot people who could have easily surrendered. Why? Because they didn't surrender. The people surrendered on the other 5 boats and none of them were shot. Mysterious, that.
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They resisted because what the IDF was doing was ILLEGAL. You CANNOT board a ship in international waters with military force the way the IDF did.

This is simply incorrect, for reasons that have been rehashed ad nauseum on the large thread on this topic.
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Care to point out where?

If you'd like to try to show me where this is illegal, feel free to take it up there.
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Israel's action is a breach of the 2009 UN International Maritime Organization Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation which Israel signed. According to the article 6.1 of the SUA, the jurisdiction over the offences that a ship might have committed lays in the State whose flag the ship is flying in international waters (in this situation, Turkey).

Israel did NOT have permission from Turkey or from any other ship's government in the flotilla to seize the ships in international waters.
 


The same questions that Cernk ask are the same questions I want too know.

-What happen before they landed in the ship
-What happen during the shootings
-What happen after the white flag was raised

These are the reasons that I hardly trust IDF version of the thing.
 
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BmanMcfly said:
My bottom dollar says that Israel is trying to instigate a war.
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I think it is more likely this was a plan of Hamas to try to garner worldwide public sympathy. They thought having all those cameras at the ready would help their cause and get the embargo lifted. But, showing how those on the ship attacked the Israeli soldiers, and only then did the soldiers retaliate, me thinks their plan backfired.

Israel had every right to board that ship... and defend themselves.
 
Hoplite said:
This revelation means that Israeli forces attacked and killed almost 20 people in international waters who were unarmed.
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Nine people were killed, not 20.
 
bicycleman said:
So stun grenades are not considered weapons?

'Activists threw stun grenades'
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And why do they not realse what happen when they shot people just what they say the activist did?

This is why I hate American Media they never let you have the full truth about what happened over their I have seen footage coming live from the ship in question, and this is why I hardly by Israel version of events
 
Hoplite said:
No, no they actually didnt according to international law.
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Just as the US blockaded Germany in WWII Israel can blockade the hostile entity of Gaza.

GWEN IFILL: Was the ship in international waters?

MICHAEL OREN: It was.

GWEN IFILL: Is that -- was that breaking the law for the Israeli military to board the ship in international waters, what so many people at the U.N. were saying that today?

MICHAEL OREN: It is not.

Under international law, when there's a case of a military blockade against a hostile entity -- and we are talking about a hostile entity -- this is -- this is Hamas in Gaza, a country under Article 51 of the United Nations charter, the right to self-defense, has a right to defend itself self.

By the same articles of war, the United States blockaded Germany during World War II in the open seas. Israel was well within its international rights.
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Israeli Ambassador: Soldiers Had 'No Choice But to Defend Themselves' | PBS NewsHour | May 31, 2010 | PBS
 
Hoplite said:
Then where are the guns that were onboard the ship? IDF claimed to have found them then said no they werent there, which is it?
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I don't recall the IDF or I ever claiming that the activists brought guns. I've said the exact opposite a half-dozen times.

The IDF claims the people on-board the ship took away their guns? In what world is that happening? Peace activists with little or no military training disarming trained IDF commandos? I dont buy that for a second and frankly I think the expectation that anyone should believe that is insulting.
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You're free to believe or disbelieve whatever you want. If you'd watched the videos, you would have seen several situations where soldiers were knocked down or piled oin by the activists. You're free to think that it's physically impossible that someone could have grabbed a gun in one of those situations, but I don't.

Yes, the protesters did resist the IDF, I was incorrect about that earlier. However, such resistance in international waters is legal as what the IDF did was an act of piracy.
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Link?

From guns they never found.
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See above.

I do not trust the IDF. They lied through their teeth during Cast Lead, they're publishing the most ludicrous stories about what happened here. Their credibility is shot.
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And I don't trust radical activists. Funny how that works.

Damn straight I do. The IDF is highly trained to deal with EXACTLY this kind of situation and again any idiot knows that.
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And yet they didn't do a very good job of it, as is clearly obvious from the videos. But I guess that never happened, because in your mind IDF soldiers are Ramboesque commandos who are completely invulnerable from any harm.

So what? Knives are used for a myriad of different things besides killing people.
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Not sure what you think your point is here. You said there were no weapons. I pointed out that there were a ****load of knives. You said that they were just kitchen knives. I pointed out that even kitchen knives can be weapons, and that there were additional non-kitchen knives.

Unless you're going to argue that a knife is not a weapon, I don't really know where you're going with this. If you still can't see how they could be classified as weapons, I advise you to grab a Jambiya and head down to the mall to see what happens.

They resisted because what the IDF was doing was ILLEGAL. You CANNOT board a ship in international waters with military force the way the IDF did.
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And yet nobody has managed to prove this, bare assertions aside.

Care to point out where?
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I think it's around pages 13-16 (I use 40 posts/page).

Israel's action is a breach of the 2009 UN International Maritime Organization Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation which Israel signed. According to the article 6.1 of the SUA, the jurisdiction over the offences that a ship might have committed lays in the State whose flag the ship is flying in international waters (in this situation, Turkey).

Israel did NOT have permission from Turkey or from any other ship's government in the flotilla to seize the ships in international waters.
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That convention is entirely inapplicable here. Not only is it designed to target individual non-state actors, but you're missing a key provision:

Article 3
1. Any person commits an offence if that person unlawfully and intentionally:...
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The Convention doesn't create any new crimes, it simply creates a remedy for things that are already crimes under international law. Citing this convention as proof that the action was illegal is circular reasoning.

That's the danger you face in drawing your legal arguments from an "expert" quoted on wiki instead of researching it yourself.
 
Hoplite said:
Israel's action is a breach of the 2009 UN International Maritime Organization Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation which Israel signed. According to the article 6.1 of the SUA, the jurisdiction over the offences that a ship might have committed lays in the State whose flag the ship is flying in international waters (in this situation, Turkey).

Israel did NOT have permission from Turkey or from any other ship's government in the flotilla to seize the ships in international waters.
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Boarding and inspection was consistent with international law (San Remo Manual, Law of the Sea Convention, and customary international law). Furthermore, the Convention specifically notes:

ARTICLE 9

Nothing in this Convention shall affect in any way the rules of international law pertaining to the competence of States to exercise investigative or enforcement jurisdiction on board ships not flying their flag.

In the case in question, Israel's inspection was consistent with Article 9. Hence, there were no violations.
 
donsutherland1 said:
Boarding and inspection was consistent with international law (San Remo Manual, Law of the Sea Convention, and customary international law). Furthermore, the Convention specifically notes:

ARTICLE 9

Nothing in this Convention shall affect in any way the rules of international law pertaining to the competence of States to exercise investigative or enforcement jurisdiction on board ships not flying their flag.

In the case in question, Israel's inspection was consistent with Article 9. Hence, there were no violations.
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At first, I read that provision the same way. However, after looking at it again I think that "ships not flying their flag" means "ships that are sailing under no flag," rather than "ships that are sailing under a flag different than that of the country boarding the ship." I could (very easily) be wrong on that, but that was my hunch. It's a minor point, because either way you're right that the convention is inapplicable here.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
They aren't even in war with Gaza anymore I THOUGHT they pulled out of Gaza oh my I guess the blockade isn't necessary anymore.

Israel Pulls Ground Troops Out of Gaza - washingtonpost.com
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MICHAEL OREN: I think Hamas is appreciably less popular among the population of Gaza today than it was three years ago.

People of Gaza look across at what's happening in the West Bank, where there's an annual growth rate of between 11 and 8 percent, a very, very high growth rate, where there are tens of thousands of new jobs, where there are talks going on between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority, where the Israeli government and the Israeli army has withdrawn from major Palestinian cities and Palestinian security forces have deployed, they look at everything that's happening on the West Bank. None of that is happening in Gaza.

And they conclude the only reason that's not happening is because of the regime that is ruling Gaza. And the minute that regime either disappears or ceases its war to destroy the state of Israel -- and that is its expressed intention -- it's actually in the covenant of Hamas -- then there's no need for a blockade. There's no reason for any restrictions whatsoever. There will be an open border.
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Israeli Ambassador: Soldiers Had 'No Choice But to Defend Themselves' | PBS NewsHour | May 31, 2010 | PBS
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
And why do they not realse what happen when they shot people just what they say the activist did?

This is why I hate American Media they never let you have the full truth about what happened over their I have seen footage coming live from the ship in question, and this is why I hardly by Israel version of events
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Does the Huffington Post or CNN suit your fancy, or do you trust Aljazeera or a media outlet that caters to Hamas?
 
bicycleman said:
Does the Huffington Post or CNN suit your fancy, or do you trust Aljazeera or a media outlet that caters to Hamas?
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No I was just saying that I want to know what happen during the time of when they shot people, and during, and after they rised the white flag, since I could hear gun fire in the back ground I want to know who did the shooting ect. Aljazera doesn't cater to Hamas when they tend too show you what Iseral did in the raid. I trust the american media as much as I trust other cable meida that is about none thanks.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Yes and we know how well using knives and clubs are against SMG's and handguns dont we. By god they were armed to the teeth werent they, able to defend themselves versus the entire Israeli navy with just knives and clubs, and by golly win
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They wanted to become Shahid and are on record saying as such. What do you think would happen if you attacked a cop searching your car with a baseball bat or a knife? You would be shot. The Jihadists attempted to use deadly force against Israeli soldiers conducting a legitimate weapons inspection and the Israeli soldiers responded with deadly force.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
It was the Israeli navy that violently boarded the ship, not the other way around.
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The Israeli Navy attempted to conduct a legitimate weapons inspection on a jihadist funded and crewed ship with the explicit intent of running the legal Israeli blockade.
 
Hoplite said:
Because they ARE ****ing kitchen knives and metal pipes! I'm sorry but that is the lamest explanation I have ever heard. Anyone familiar with Israel at all knows you do NOT **** with the IDF, these are not people known for their easy-going nature and sense of humor. Metal pipes and kitchen knives are NOT going to do anything wielded by civilians against trained IDF commandos and any fool knows that.
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They brutally attacked the IDF soldiers with these daggers and metal clubs. The Israeli soldiers were met with deadly force while attempting to conduct a legitimate weaons inspection on a ship attempting to run the Israeli blockade and the Israeli soldiers responded with deadly force against the Jihadists. I don't see the problem here.

It actually does make a difference. Kitchen knives are not designed for stabbing someone and break easily when they are used to do so. The metal of kitchen knives is extremely hard so that it retains an edge longer but that also makes it brittle, try bending a kitchen knife someday and you'll see what I mean. A $6 pocket knife is a better tool for stabbing someone than a kitchen knife.
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So I can stab you in the throat with a kitchen knife then? Good to know.

Oh and that 8 inch long 4 inch wide Jambiya battle dagger must have been used to cut some pretty big ****ing fruit. :roll:
 
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Hoplite said:
It wasnt a ****ing accident, Israel shot down people who could have been easily subdued or otherwise surrendered to ensure that they stopped coming.
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Go pull a knife or a metal club on any cop on the planet and I'll see your ass in the obituary section. The IDF soldiers were met with deadly force and responded in kind.

Keep in mind, this attack took place in INTERNATIONAL WATERS.
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Irrelevant, it doesn't matter if it was in international waters since it was clear that they were intending to run the blockade.
 
Israel Rejects calls for International investigation. Israel rejects independent probe calls

I wonder what those who say Israel has done nothing wrong and that if Iran has nothing to hide why dont they allow international investigators?

I'd prefer to see and wait for all the facts to come in and some form of investigation to be complete before making an opinion either way.
 
Wiseone said:
Israel Rejects calls for International investigation. Israel rejects independent probe calls

I wonder what those who say Israel has done nothing wrong and that if Iran has nothing to hide why dont they allow international investigators?

I'd prefer to see and wait for all the facts to come in and some form of investigation to be complete before making an opinion either way.
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Those investigations tend to be biased, such as the Goldstone investigation which was accused of bias by Israel, the US and a few other European countries.
However the Israeli media reports that the state would have to cooperate with an international investigation.
 
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