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Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

Those investigations tend to be biased, such as the Goldstone investigation which was accused of bias by Israel, the US and a few other European countries.
However the Israeli media reports that the state would have to cooperate with an international investigation.

O no doubt many potential investigators would be biased, but I would like to see some kind of 3rd party investigation. But either way there's so much crap flying around about this incident that I can't tell whats what, people seem to have already made their opinions based on their already existing opinions on Israel.
 
Two items...

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This is no Martha Stewart kitchen-set knife. Lethal and illegal. Carrying this weapon in public would get you arrested in virtually every Western country. Reminds me of that scene in Indiana Jones where this dude came at Indy with one of these deals. Indy simply pulled out his sidearm and popped him.

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Didn't the US Navy impose a naval blockade on Cuba (1962) with the purpose of boarding and inspecting any ship that approached Cuban waters?
 
I don't recall the IDF or I ever claiming that the activists brought guns. I've said the exact opposite a half-dozen times.
The IDF is now claiming they were fired on.

You're free to believe or disbelieve whatever you want. If you'd watched the videos, you would have seen several situations where soldiers were knocked down or piled oin by the activists. You're free to think that it's physically impossible that someone could have grabbed a gun in one of those situations, but I don't.
I believe it's extremely unlikely that it could have happened and the IDF has done nothing to back up these claims.

I was incorrect earlier as classifying it as an act of piracy, the IDF did carry a military commission from the Israeli government however that does NOT change the fact that the attack was against international law.

And yet they didn't do a very good job of it, as is clearly obvious from the videos. But I guess that never happened, because in your mind IDF soldiers are Ramboesque commandos who are completely invulnerable from any harm.
I find it difficult to believe that IDF commandos, who are HIGHLY trained and well armed soldiers, would suffer such set-backs at the hands of people who are largely untrained, unarmored, and armed with slingshots, metal pipes, and kitchen knives.

This is akin to a group of college students attacking US Navy SEALS and the SEALS saying "Well..they had PIPES!"

Not sure what you think your point is here. You said there were no weapons. I pointed out that there were a ****load of knives. You said that they were just kitchen knives. I pointed out that even kitchen knives can be weapons, and that there were additional non-kitchen knives.
Then by that logic everyone has THOUSANDS of weapons all over their homes! If you want to get nit-picky, we can do that: there was no item on board the ship that had the clear intention of being a deadly weapon. Happy?

Unless you're going to argue that a knife is not a weapon, I don't really know where you're going with this.
You're making knives that people carry around for utility into some arsenal of death. Utility knives are NOT rare things and you're making it seem like carrying one instantly means you intend to use it to kill someone and thats the only reason to have it.

If you still can't see how they could be classified as weapons, I advise you to grab a Jambiya and head down to the mall to see what happens.
I carry a similar weapon on me at all times.

And yet nobody has managed to prove this, bare assertions aside.
The Associated Press: Israeli police say 16 Gaza activists sent to jail
"Robin Churchill, a professor of international law at the University of Dundee in Scotland, said the Israeli commandos boarded the ship outside of Israel's territorial waters.

"As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships," Churchill said."


Was seizing the flotilla legal? - The Globe and Mail
"Israel justifies the boarding of the ships in international waters basically as an act of self defence. It is Israel’s argument that the naval blockade of Gaza is needed to prevent Hamas in Gaza from attacking Israel.

However, notes Michael Byers, Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International law at UBC, the test in international for constituting legal self defence is whether the action taken was “necessary and proportionate.” On the facts, “the action does not appear to have been necessary in that the threat was not imminent,” Prof. Byers said."

How the flotilla bound for Gaza Strip sailed into death at sea - Times Online
• Boarding a vessel is acceptable in certain circumstances, such as when a boat is suspected of terrorist activities or carrying weapons of mass destruction, but even then Israel, for example, would need to seek permission from the country where the boat is registered, in this case Turkey

• Jason Alderwick, a maritime analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said that the Israeli raid did not appear to have been conducted lawfully under the convention



Israel has also violated the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea by capturing the boats in international waters. They have also, by not seeking permission of the host government (Turkey) to board the ships in international waters, violated the UN International Maritime Organization Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation which Israel signed and agreed to abide by in 2009.

That convention is entirely inapplicable here. Not only is it designed to target individual non-state actors, but you're missing a key provision:

The Convention doesn't create any new crimes, it simply creates a remedy for things that are already crimes under international law. Citing this convention as proof that the action was illegal is circular reasoning.
This type of incident is spelled out as illegal by other bodies of international maritime law.

Boarding and inspection was consistent with international law (San Remo Manual, Law of the Sea Convention, and customary international law).
San Remo applies to a situation in which the laws of war between states are in force. The laws of war do not apply in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which isn't even a state.
 
The flotilla was 6 ships and carrying over 700 with a huge variety of people and cargo. I think its clear so far the convey was carrying some illegal items along with some dangerous people but I'd really like to know more than 3 out of the 700 people were jihadists and some of them had some knives.

I think there's enough evidence to say Israel was legally justified in this action, but other issues such as morally justified or if it was justified from a perspective of what's best for Israel, in my opinion.
 
This is akin to a group of college students attacking US Navy SEALS and the SEALS saying "Well..they had PIPES!"

Go pull a knife or a metal pipe on a cop or an armed Navy SEAL and I'll see you in the ****ing obituaries. They responded to the use of deadly force with deadly force.
 
San Remo applies to a situation in which the laws of war between states are in force.

No it applies to "parties in armed conflict at sea."

The laws of war do not apply in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which isn't even a state.

Good to know so then Israel can nuke Gaza tomorrow. WOOT!!!
 
O no doubt many potential investigators would be biased, but I would like to see some kind of 3rd party investigation. But either way there's so much crap flying around about this incident that I can't tell whats what, people seem to have already made their opinions based on their already existing opinions on Israel.

One of the Israeli government's ministers(Benjamin ben-Eliezer) has just stated that an international investigation should be formed, explaining that "Israel has got absolutely nothing to hide".
 
One of the Israeli government's ministers(Benjamin ben-Eliezer) has just stated that an international investigation should be formed, explaining that "Israel has got absolutely nothing to hide".

I'm a victum of what I was talking about. If i was of a certain opinion of Israel I could have used that JP article to say all kinds of things which probably wouldnt have been true, there's too much information flying around and its changing too fast for anyone i believe to form an opinion which uses all the facts.
 
The IDF is now claiming they were fired on.

Link?

I believe it's extremely unlikely that it could have happened and the IDF has done nothing to back up these claims.

I find it difficult to believe that IDF commandos, who are HIGHLY trained and well armed soldiers, would suffer such set-backs at the hands of people who are largely untrained, unarmored, and armed with slingshots, metal pipes, and kitchen knives.

This is akin to a group of college students attacking US Navy SEALS and the SEALS saying "Well..they had PIPES!"

Like I said, believe whatever you want.

I was incorrect earlier as classifying it as an act of piracy, the IDF did carry a military commission from the Israeli government however that does NOT change the fact that the attack was against international law.

I'm still waiting for you to show me how it's illegal. It's been several days, and no one has yet managed to come up with anything.

Then by that logic everyone has THOUSANDS of weapons all over their homes! If you want to get nit-picky, we can do that: there was no item on board the ship that had the clear intention of being a deadly weapon. Happy?

There was no item on board that had the sole purpose of being a deadly weapon. I've said that for days.

You're making knives that people carry around for utility into some arsenal of death. Utility knives are NOT rare things and you're making it seem like carrying one instantly means you intend to use it to kill someone and thats the only reason to have it.

No, I'm making it seem like carrying a utility knife or metal pole around and then using it to attack someone makes it seem like you had it for the purpose of attacking someone.

I carry a similar weapon on me at all times.

So you agree that it's a weapon! Great.


The Associated Press: Israeli police say 16 Gaza activists sent to jail
"Robin Churchill, a professor of international law at the University of Dundee in Scotland, said the Israeli commandos boarded the ship outside of Israel's territorial waters.

"As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships," Churchill said."

Rather than repeating the bare and unsupported assertion of some guy, why don't you show me how it violated international law?

Was seizing the flotilla legal? - The Globe and Mail
"Israel justifies the boarding of the ships in international waters basically as an act of self defence. It is Israel’s argument that the naval blockade of Gaza is needed to prevent Hamas in Gaza from attacking Israel.

However, notes Michael Byers, Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International law at UBC, the test in international for constituting legal self defence is whether the action taken was “necessary and proportionate.” On the facts, “the action does not appear to have been necessary in that the threat was not imminent,” Prof. Byers said."

Byers has the right test, but like most law profs, he ignores the fact that it's not up to him to determine whether the threat was imminent. Israel determined that it was, so it took action. Who the **** is he to say that they're wrong?

How the flotilla bound for Gaza Strip sailed into death at sea - Times Online
• Boarding a vessel is acceptable in certain circumstances, such as when a boat is suspected of terrorist activities or carrying weapons of mass destruction, but even then Israel, for example, would need to seek permission from the country where the boat is registered, in this case Turkey

• Jason Alderwick, a maritime analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said that the Israeli raid did not appear to have been conducted lawfully under the convention

Link me to the part of the convention that makes this illegal.

Israel has also violated the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea by capturing the boats in international waters. They have also, by not seeking permission of the host government (Turkey) to board the ships in international waters, violated the UN International Maritime Organization Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation which Israel signed and agreed to abide by in 2009.

I explained how this is entirely inapplicable in this very thread less than 24 hours ago.

This type of incident is spelled out as illegal by other bodies of international maritime law.

Such as?
 
Yes and we know how well using knives and clubs are against SMG's and handguns dont we. By god they were armed to the teeth werent they, able to defend themselves versus the entire Israeli navy with just knives and clubs, and by golly win

That can happen when you fast rope onto a ship carrying a paint gun.
 
One of the Israeli government's ministers(Benjamin ben-Eliezer) has just stated that an international investigation should be formed, explaining that "Israel has got absolutely nothing to hide".

would you object to the israeli decision if it is to refuse to allow international representatives to assist in the investigation of this matter?
 


This statement is in direct contradiction to an earlier statement where the Israelis claimed to have found weapons on board the ships.





This revelation means that Israeli forces attacked and killed almost 20 people in international waters who were unarmed.

If this is true, I say it was a setup. It was successful too. They sent a flotilla, void of the usual contraban, then cause a stir by not responding to the IDF Navy....knowing they would be boarded. Then cause violence so that the IDF would have to take defensive action. The whole effort to discredit Israel. If this so called revelation is truth, it's the only explanation. Do you really believe in the virgin white innocense of this so-called humanitarian effort?
 
would you object to the israeli decision if it is to refuse to allow international representatives to assist in the investigation of this matter?

My ideal solution, as is the Israeli state's ideal solution I believe, would be to have an Israeli investigation with overseers from all around the world.
Perhaps Egypt, Jordan, the USA, NATO, EU, UK and Turkey.
 
This revelation means that Israeli forces attacked and killed almost 20 people in international waters who were unarmed.



So wait, they provoked running a blockade with no weapons according to al jazeera?



As william munnny once said.... "They should have armed themselves"... :shrug:
 
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Hmn well you had a knesset member on board Mavi Marmara, Hanin Zoabi - she no doubt could be in charge of part of the investigation.

Gaza flotilla raid pushes unknown Knesset member into spotlight - CSMonitor.com

The answer is clearly no.
She is very radical and was already caught on a lie when she told the foreign press that soldiers were not attacked.
After the footage was released they asked her if she takes back her words and she said she doesn't, because she doesn't consider using bats and knives as attacking.
 
The answer is clearly no.
She is very radical and was already caught on a lie when she told the foreign press that soldiers were not attacked.
After the footage was released they asked her if she takes back her words and she said she doesn't, because she doesn't consider using bats and knives as attacking.

I did say that with tongue in cheek anticipating you would not agree ;)

The problem is that most people who I have heard talk who were on the boat would agree with her.

Because Israel stopped everyone else from filming no one can provide any video information from the other side.

People do accept that hoses and battons were used against the Israeli's but they also say they were very scared and most of them seem to believe this was just self defence. It appears there were all kinds of people on this ship. In other words the people who like to say this was just jihadists are far from accurate.

People have had their phones and even passports and credit cards confiscated or so I am hearing.

It really needs an neutral investigation. Is that possible, probably not.

I think it would be good to listen to her. You need to understand that not everyone will have seen everything.

I listened to one retunee last night. He believed that people were just using anything they could to defend themselves. They were on the high seas. They did not believe Israel had a right to board their boat.

We aren't imo if we have an honest inquiry going to find a good and bad - or I certainly will be very surprised if we do. Obviously if indeed anyone did try to lynch Israelis that is on a different level but that also would need to be proved.

Mistakes were made and the reason for the violence must be found. In order to do this Israel must look at not just what happened but the reason it happened and that includes being willing to understand people coming from a different motivation to the one Israel perceives.

It would possibly be more likely to get an honest appraisal if it were done in the main with an orientation of using the information found to avoid this in the future. (said in peace)
 
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Israeli military gives version of flotilla incident - CNN.com
""They beat us up with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us... They were shooting at us from below deck."

Now apparently the activists had magic guns that disappear once dropped because the IDF has yet to find any firearms or present proof that any firearms except their own were fired or even present.

I'm still waiting for you to show me how it's illegal. It's been several days, and no one has yet managed to come up with anything.
The only reason you haven't seen it is because you ignore what people say. According to international conventions on maritime law, which I have previously posted, Israel has to seek permission from the host government of a ship to stop and seize it in international waters, which they did not do.

No, I'm making it seem like carrying a utility knife or metal pole around and then using it to attack someone makes it seem like you had it for the purpose of attacking someone.

Rather than repeating the bare and unsupported assertion of some guy, why don't you show me how it violated international law?
This has been posted time and time and TIME again

Byers has the right test, but like most law profs, he ignores the fact that it's not up to him to determine whether the threat was imminent. Israel determined that it was, so it took action. Who the **** is he to say that they're wrong?
Because no indication of any threat has been found onboard the ships. We also dont know what Israel knew because they arent being very forthcoming with the impetus for stopping and searching the ships.

Link me to the part of the convention that makes this illegal.
It's provided in the link you responded to, dont blame me for you being lazy.

I explained how this is entirely inapplicable in this very thread less than 24 hours ago.
Look if you aren't going to read what I put up, say so now so I dont waste more of my time.
 
If this is true, I say it was a setup. It was successful too. They sent a flotilla, void of the usual contraban, then cause a stir by not responding to the IDF Navy....knowing they would be boarded. Then cause violence so that the IDF would have to take defensive action. The whole effort to discredit Israel. If this so called revelation is truth, it's the only explanation. Do you really believe in the virgin white innocense of this so-called humanitarian effort?

"This mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege on 1.5 million Palestinians," she said. Irishman Fintan Lane echoed the sentiments. "We are determined to break Israel's blockade and will not be intimidated," said Lane, one of 750 activists from around the world, including dozens of public officials from European and Arab countries, who organisers say are heading towards Gaza.

Gaza aid fleet undeterred as Israel steps up warnings - Yahoo! News
 
Israel's foreign ministry said it had warned the ambassadors of Cyprus, Greece, Ireland, Sweden and Turkey -- from where the ships set sail -- that it had "issued warrants that prohibit the entrance of the vessels to Gaza."

The flotilla "is about to break international law," the ministry's director general Yossi Gal told the diplomats.

Gaza aid fleet undeterred as Israel steps up warnings - Yahoo! News
 
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Why has only the Mail Online reported on this? Because its unfounded and uncomfirmed. There has been no official confirmation about this from Israel either. I call BS.
What are you talking about?
Those are pictures being taken from the ship during the first scans of the ship when it has been brought to the port of Ashdod, and yes they were confirmed in Israel since they were taken in Israel.
The videos back those pictures up anyway.
 
What are you talking about?
Those are pictures being taken from the ship during the first scans of the ship when it has been brought to the port of Ashdod, and yes they were confirmed in Israel since they were taken in Israel.
The videos back those pictures up anyway.

The government of Israel has not said anything about it. Here in the west, the BBC have not reported on it. The "edited" footage released thus far show activists armed with sticks but no knives, weapons, Molotov cocktails, guns, or klashnikovs, it doesn't show weapons lined up or any sort of bomb or item that would aid Hamas in any shape or form....basically nothing to suggest they deserved a few bullets lodged in them.
 
I did say that with tongue in cheek anticipating you would not agree ;)

The problem is that most people who I have heard talk who were on the boat would agree with her.

Because Israel stopped everyone else from filming no one can provide any video information from the other side.
I believe al-Jazeera has an edited video floating around the media that was filmed during the interception, no?
People do accept that hoses and battons were used against the Israeli's but they also say they were very scared and most of them seem to believe this was just self defence.
Their entire purpose was propaganda, you can't expect them to stop the propaganda now.
Those folks have attacked Israeli soldiers that haven't attacked them, how credible do you think they are?
It appears there were all kinds of people on this ship. In other words the people who like to say this was just jihadists are far from accurate.
Correct. Only one of the ship has had a crew of about 100 people trying to lynch and murder the soldiers.
Those folks are jihadists, and 3 of the people who died are filmed before the interception as they dream about becoming Shahids. (martyrs)
It really needs an neutral investigation. Is that possible, probably not.
You're speaking with bias.
There's nothing wrong with a nation carrying its own investigations about its own actions as long as those investigations are met with international standards of transparency.
I think it would be good to listen to her. You need to understand that not everyone will have seen everything.
I think she was caught on lying and people who listen to her are people who want her versions to be true, people who support the anti-Israeli propaganda knowing that it's pure propaganda.
I listened to one retunee last night. He believed that people were just using anything they could to defend themselves. They were on the high seas. They did not believe Israel had a right to board their boat.
Doesn't matter, Israel has legally boarded the ship and the soldiers were illegally attacked and assaulted with the clear intent of killing them.
They've had every right to react in self-defense when being shot at by the lynching mob.
We aren't imo if we have an honest inquiry going to find a good and bad - or I certainly will be very surprised if we do. Obviously if indeed anyone did try to lynch Israelis that is on a different level but that also would need to be proved.
I think that there are enough videos already that create a basis for the claim that the soldiers were being lynched.
The chopper's rope is being grabbed and tied to an antena in order to bring it down, before the soldiers have even boarded the ship.
Mistakes were made and the reason for the violence must be found. In order to do this Israel must look at not just what happened but the reason it happened and that includes being willing to understand people coming from a different motivation to the one Israel perceives.
Israel needs to carry an international-level investigation, with overseers from all the nations and organizations I've listed above, and prove that the facts are with it and that it has done everything legally.
 
The government of Israel has not said anything about it.
Those are pictures from the office of the IDF spokesman buddy.
Here in the west, the BBC have not reported on it.
And you should ask yourself why.
The "edited" footage released thus far show activists armed with sticks but no knives, weapons, Molotov cocktails, guns, or klashnikovs, it doesn't show weapons lined up or any sort of bomb or item that would aid Hamas in any shape or form....basically nothing to suggest they deserved a few bullets lodged in them.
It shows those weapons being used.
It basically provides the backing for the pictures, and the same goes the other way, the pictures provide the basis for the videos.




 
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