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Financial Reform Talks Near Collapse, Some GOPers Threaten To Defect

Well, yes, except that according to the US Treasury it is a $54.7 trillion debt.

That is true, I was talking about the published on budget debt, not the entitlement debt as well. Neither number means anything to a lot of people as the number is something they won't get concerned about until it affects them. That time is coming.
 
That is true, I was talking about the published on budget debt, not the entitlement debt as well. Neither number means anything to a lot of people as the number is something they won't get concerned about until it affects them. That time is coming.

Well, I just prefer to use the entitlement debt as that is the more accurate number. It is the number we owe if entitlements do not change and how likely is that?
 
Well, I just prefer to use the entitlement debt as that is the more accurate number. It is the number we owe if entitlements do not change and how likely is that?

100% unless we declare bankruptcy. There is no other choice.
 
100% unless we declare bankruptcy. There is no other choice.

Well, then, when that happens we can recalibrate the debt figure based on the new entitlement projections.
 
Well, then, when that happens we can recalibrate the debt figure based on the new entitlement projections.


Either way it's going to be freakin' high. The reason entitlements are not considered "debt" is because some portion of the payments will be made using actual taxes collected. We owe the money in the future, but that does not mean we'll need to borrow it. Just most of it!
 
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Well, I just prefer to use the entitlement debt as that is the more accurate number. It is the number we owe if entitlements do not change and how likely is that?

Very likely, it will go up
 
Either way it's going to be freakin' high. The reason entitlements are not considered "debt" is because some portion of the payments will be made using actual taxes collected. We owe the money in future, but that does not mean we'll need to borrow it. Just most of it!

We could always print it. :mrgreen:
 
We could always print it. :mrgreen:

Well, SS payments are tied to inflation (at least they are now). So printing money won't help so much because the payments will just keep getting higher!
 
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Well, SS payments are tied to inflation (at least they are now). So printing money won't help so much because the payments will just keep getting higher!

****! That sucks! ;)
 
No it is not known and we have this thing called "paper" which we can use to write down things like, history. But you're right, it doesn't matter who is in office because corporatists actually run the government.

The problem is that this thing called "paper" is being used to write things like, money. :mrgreen:
 
Why would anyone waste their time trying to explain anything to you as you would ignore it? Facts don't matter to those who are economically challenged and are looking for someone else to blame for their own personal problems.

Regardless of what you think, you really aren't smarter than anyone else so if you can be successful so can millions of others without govt. help.

In spite of what you feel you cannot reform the financial institutions without reform for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac just like you cannot hold private business responsible for the same things bureaucrats are doing with taxpayer dollars. We have a 13 trillion dollar debt and rising so those bureaucrats need to get the people's house in order before raking CEO's of private business over the coals.
Your post reads like this: I don't want to answer the questions in the post because my head would explode to know the truth so instead I'll make some nonsense up so I have something to run my yap about.

Every post of yours ignores the real problem which indicates to me you have an agenda. Tell us what that agenda is as it certainly isn't to benefit the average American.
Every post of yours ignores the real problem which indicates to me you have an agenda. Tell us what that agenda is as it certainly isn't to benefit the average American. :2wave:
 
Do we need high growth rates? Isn't that part of the problem?
Surely a steady, even if slow, growth rate is preferred to wild oscillations?
No, because wild oscillations provide the opportunity for the privileged to make a lot of money before things turn to ****.
 
Easy, spend less. The government wastes so much money and overpays for many projects. The government needs to make serous cuts and live within its means like any normal person. The government needs to shrink and drastically reduce spending in areas that it can.

So not spending to get out of a recession? :rofl

Interesting how everyone who continues to complain about government spending or the ARRA (stimulas bill) completely ignore the fact that the Dows has risen above Oct 2008 levels and is still climbing...not skyrocketing, but still ticking upward, that business are starting to sell and manufactur products to replenish inventories and the American people are buying goods and services again. (Read report here of 1Q2010 corpoerate earnings)

Consumer spending has risen for five straight months, retail sales for four, and restaurant sales surged this spring after being stagnant since 2008. Profits from those sales reflect a healthier economy, as opposed to the drastic cost-cutting that helped companies improve their bottom lines in recent quarters.

Among the latest winners, Ford Motor Co. did an about-face from a year ago in reporting a $2.1 billion profit on 15 percent higher revenue; it plans to boost production. Caterpillar Inc. also reversed a loss from a year ago and said demand for its construction and mining equipment is surging.

Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. returned to a first-quarter profit as more travelers vacationed on its ships and spent additional money on board. UPS Inc. posted a 33 percent profit increase; it said tech firms are shipping more products and other industries are restocking inventories.

A parade of other Fortune 500 corporations also have boosted their full-year profit forecasts this month. This week alone, the list includes DuPont Co., Estee Lauder Cos. and Whirlpool Corp.

As to financial reform, even the headline on FoxNews.com reads, "Republicans Poised to End Stall on U.S. Banking Bill," a clear indication that it's diversionary tactics once again by Republicans despite many of them claiming that Wall Street desperately needs regulatory reform (or for the regulators to do their jobs...you decide which is more right). But if the headline didn't grab you, maybe this will...

From the FoxNews article...

Republicans had already begun to drop their complaints that the Democrats' legislation would perpetuate bailouts, and had shifted their criticism to a consumer protection provision that they say goes too far.

How the hell does legistlation that protects the consumers end up being considered too broad, i.e., "going too far?" I thought the first responsibility politicians had was to the People, not big business? Of course, there will be some who will once again argue how this country was founded on capitalism, blah, blah, blah (...ummm, Conservative...:roll:) and completely forget who have been truly hurt by Wall Street greed. (Here's a clue...it wasn't Goldman Sachs, BoA, Freddie, Fannie, AIG, or GM. How's your 401K doing?) Regardless on your take, it's about time both sides will finally get to sit down and debate this issue. And this time, let's all hope they get it right for once.
 
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No, because wild oscillations provide the opportunity for the privileged to make a lot of money before things turn to ****.

Leaving just the **** to be divided amongst those who are not in a position to watch things every minute of every day.
Wall Street investing is a rigged game...
 
Jobs were leaving the US long before the Bush years. That aside, I thought you might be interested in reading this (just for informational purposes):

"Shipping Jobs Overseas" or Reaching New Customers? Why Congress Should Not Tax Reinvested ... | Daniel Griswold | Cato Institute: Free Trade Bulletin

I didn't say the U.S. only began to lose jobs during the Bush administration. My comment was in the context of tax cuts, which did nothing to stem the flow.



gina said:
Excuse me but jobs left they U.S. in droves over the course of 8 years of the Bush administration.

The question remains, how does lowering taxes any further help when it certainly didn't keep jobs in the U.S.?

gina said:
I was referring to the quote above in that jobs were leaving the U.S. as Bush twice cut taxes.
 
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Easy, spend less. The government wastes so much money and overpays for many projects. The government needs to make serous cuts and live within its means like any normal person. The government needs to shrink and drastically reduce spending in areas that it can.

I suggest you spend some time with the budget. This all sounds good, but is no where as easy in practice.

Bear in mind that Obama inherited a mess. I know the Repubs don't want to acknowledge that, but the economy was in dire, dire straits from Q4 '08 to Q 3 '09. Amongst the casualties of a bad economy is a declining tax base... it fell 15%. You can't just cut spending, particularly in a deep recession... so your thoughts are at least impractical and at most, flat out wrong.

Obama did promise health care reform. What we got was regulation.

Wall Street reform, given how close to disaster Wall Street practices took us, is not only prudent government, its a down right imperative. Repubs would be smart to participate and dumb to stand in the way.
 
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Obama did promise health care reform. What we got was regulation.

Wall Street reform, given how close to disaster Wall Street practices took us, is not only prudent government, its a down right imperative. Repubs would be smart to participate and dumb to stand in the way.

The truth that few want to admit, is that no one knows for sure what caused the financial crisis. If you think you do what exactly will this legislation fix?
If you can't answer this one question then your imploring people to pass something they know little about is just cheap politics. Not really worthy of debate.

As you mention we did not get true HC reform after a year of bitter debate. Can we afford to make a similar mistake with our financial industry. Just pass something so you can tell the people you passed reform and punished those evil guys on wall street.

Something I will agree with is that the American people are getting the government they deserve.
 
Your post reads like this: I don't want to answer the questions in the post because my head would explode to know the truth so instead I'll make some nonsense up so I have something to run my yap about.


Every post of yours ignores the real problem which indicates to me you have an agenda. Tell us what that agenda is as it certainly isn't to benefit the average American. :2wave:

It is a waste of time to respond to the braindead. Nothing changes the mind of someone who hasn't one. You don't want answers to your questions because you cannot handle the truth of those answers. Not sure what your agenda really is but it is obvious to anyone here that whatever it is, it has nothing to do with making this country better or belief in the founders of this nation.
 
Hard to tell when discussing things on the internet what people know and don't know.

If they are new, that would be correct. However, enough posts and you can gauge the knowledge of people.

That being said, do you know that every corportation that has audited financial statements pays for those audits.

Indeed. But not like how it used to be. Before, firms literally went around to auditing firms to buy unqualified opinions. They went audit shopping. Now you cannot do that. In fact, you even try that and you'll get reported to the SEC within a day or at least a week.

Yes the practice is lousy, but it is scary to listen to people simplictically trying to demonize one industry.

The way audits are paid for is considerably different after Sarbes-Oxley. Not really a valid comparison to compare post SOX audits to Pre-SOX audits.

Polititians have done a great job of driving manufacturing jobs overseas in the last 20 years. We are now largely a service industry.

Except that the US still is the largest manufacturing country in the world by leaps and bounds. Technology is pretty much killing manufacturing jobs. Replacing a thousand line workers with 5 guys running automated systems.
 
Obama ran basically saying he wasn't Bush. People hated Bush for his poor war policy and his government spending. Obama is just like Bush when it comes to deficit spending, only worse.

Obama's options were:

A.) Do nothing at all

B.) Cut taxes

C.) Enact fiscal spending

Now while you may not agree, options A & B have had disaterous effects. Please do not bring up Reagan, as that was a different time (debt wise) and different type of recession.

The world economy is on life support. You would be hard pressed to make a case that we would have been better off.

People may have elected Obama for what he ran on, but we don't like how he plans on reforming things. The healthcare bill is disliked by the majority of Americans, yet Obama pushed it through and gave democracy a smack to the face. Americans do want reform in all those areas, just not Democrat reform.

This is what a true leader embodies, doing the right thing even if it is unpopular and leads to "early retirement". While current reform does not address all of the long term spending issues, it is a step in the right direction (imho).
 
Goldenboy, I have yet to see anyone answer this question:

What's the point in cutting taxes on businesses who are losing money because of the recession?

There's no profit to be taxed. How can you be hurting them when they are not legally obligated to pay?

If I cut taxes on someone who has a small business being reported on their schedule C who's losing money to the point they have no taxable income (this happens more often then you'd think), how does that help them?

Woooh! We cut your taxes! Too bad you didn't have anything to tax in the first place!
 
Except that the US still is the largest manufacturing country in the world by leaps and bounds. Technology is pretty much killing manufacturing jobs. Replacing a thousand line workers with 5 guys running automated systems.

I did a paper on that 25 years ago, in college....
I don't think automation damaged the American job market that much, it just raised the required education bar for workers a bit.
It is one thing to automate an American factory, it is another when the factory and all its automated equipment is shipped out of country.
 
Obama's options were:

A.) Do nothing at all

B.) Cut taxes

C.) Enact fiscal spending

Now while you may not agree, options A & B have had disaterous effects. Please do not bring up Reagan, as that was a different time (debt wise) and different type of recession.

The world economy is on life support. You would be hard pressed to make a case that we would have been better off.



This is what a true leader embodies, doing the right thing even if it is unpopular and leads to "early retirement". While current reform does not address all of the long term spending issues, it is a step in the right direction (imho).


Would you please explain to me how tax revenue to the U.S. Govt. doubled AFTER the Reagan Tax cuts? How much of the Reagan debt was created in 1981-82 prior to the affects of the tax cuts?

This tired old argument that you and others make ignores actual facts and history. You also all seem to not understand basic civics that defines who authorizes the spending. Obama claimed he inherited a 1.3 trillion dollar deficit. That is a lie. He inherited a 10.6 trillion dollar cumulative debt created by all Administrations and now has added over 2 trillion to it. Deficit is yearly, debt is cumulative. Fiscal year of the U.S. Govt. is October-September and Obama took office 4 months into fiscal year 2009. There was no 1.3 trillion deficit on January 20, 2009 but it sure makes for a great soundbyte that liberals love to support.

Barack Obama was in the Congress of the United States the last two years of the Bush Administration. What was his voting record on the spending bills during those last two years. In additiion Bush didn't propose the 842 billion stimulus plan nor did Bush spend all the TARP money leaving 350 billion to Obama, nor did Bush bailout GM/Chrysler, and Bush didn't increase the unemployment rate from 7.6% to 10%.

You can keep re-writing history but all that does is destroy what little credibility you have. Guess you don't care that much about being accurate or being credible.
 
Would you please explain to me how tax revenue to the U.S. Govt. doubled AFTER the Reagan Tax cuts? How much of the Reagan debt was created in 1981-82 prior to the affects of the tax cuts?

This tired old argument that you and others make ignores actual facts and history. You also all seem to not understand basic civics that defines who authorizes the spending. Obama claimed he inherited a 1.3 trillion dollar deficit. That is a lie. He inherited a 10.6 trillion dollar cumulative debt created by all Administrations and now has added over 2 trillion to it. Deficit is yearly, debt is cumulative. Fiscal year of the U.S. Govt. is October-September and Obama took office 4 months into fiscal year 2009. There was no 1.3 trillion deficit on January 20, 2009 but it sure makes for a great soundbyte that liberals love to support.

Barack Obama was in the Congress of the United States the last two years of the Bush Administration. What was his voting record on the spending bills during those last two years. In additiion Bush didn't propose the 842 billion stimulus plan nor did Bush spend all the TARP money leaving 350 billion to Obama, nor did Bush bailout GM/Chrysler, and Bush didn't increase the unemployment rate from 7.6% to 10%.

You can keep re-writing history but all that does is destroy what little credibility you have. Guess you don't care that much about being accurate or being credible.

Just as I thought, no response. Those that want to demonize Reagan ignore the actual facts about the Reagan economy and cannot explain how tax revenue doubled after the Reagan tax cuts. That simply diverts from the current President's economic policy that has created trillions in additional debt.
 
Just as I thought, no response. Those that want to demonize Reagan ignore the actual facts about the Reagan economy and cannot explain how tax revenue doubled after the Reagan tax cuts. That simply diverts from the current President's economic policy that has created trillions in additional debt.
What Tax revenue are you referring to, income, corporate... Provide the proof that tax revenue doubled the year following the cuts and show that this doubling was sustained year to year thereafter.

Unless you'd like to make some excuse not to provide that evidence.
 
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