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Marine officer: Gays, straights shouldn't share housing

I know you cannot see how it can make people uncomfortable, and I also know that I probably won't be able to change your opinion on the issue.

No, I can see how there might be some initial discomfort but I don't see how it could be a lingering thing that impedes one's ability to remain professional. That's all.

Look, I've already said I don't care about whether or not someone is gay. I care that they keep it to themselves while serving in the military, especially when the focus isn't on their sexual preference... it's suppose to be on the mission. So what's the agenda here? Why would it matter to gays if they can already serve but just cannot be open about being gay? The military doesn't actively search for gays who are serving; like it says, "don't ask, don't tell." It's a two-way street.

It isn't that simple. It's not about being "open". It's about eliminating the risk involved with just being oneself. I don't think I'll be able to get you to understand that either, having never been asked to do so.

To answer your question more specifically ...yes, it would make me more uncomfortable if I knew I was showering and sleeping with gay men rather than consider the off-hand chance that maybe someone I'm showering or sleeping with is gay but not openly.

OK, fair enough.
 
Ignorance is bliss?

Very rarely would I say it, but in this case, to be honest, I'm at first inclined to say yes. Why? Because I wouldn't gain anything productive if I turned that "ignorance" into knowing... it would only cause more issues than solutions.
 
Very rarely would I say it, but in this case, to be honest, I'm at first inclined to say yes. Why? Because I wouldn't gain anything productive if I turned that "ignorance" into knowing... it would only cause more issues than solutions.

I disagree. I don't believe that denial and lack of education are ever a good thing. It is much better to have as much information as possible. It allows you to make much better and informed decisions. Ignorance and denial gnerally achieve little other than a false sense of security.
 
No, I can see how there might be some initial discomfort but I don't see how it could be a lingering thing that impedes one's ability to remain professional. That's all.



It isn't that simple. It's not about being "open". It's about eliminating the risk involved with just being oneself. I don't think I'll be able to get you to understand that either, having never been asked to do so.

You're definitely right on that point, which is what makes the conversation so difficult. On the one hand, if someone is gay they should not be punished for it. On the other hand, how can the military effectively allow gays without it disrupting the overall system? It's honestly one of the most difficult minor problems to solve. Maybe if the military made it so it wasn't a punishable thing, but to not be publicly vocal about it... which would make it a more professional environment. But the problem with that solution is that the military isn't like the same type of professional environment as, say, a corporate job. There's a lot of foul mouthed, closed minded Marines who are also very keen at picking out people who are different than themselves. That's why I always say in the military it's best not to differentiate yourself, because it can harm the mission and there are a lot of people who lack respect, even if they don't mean to be disrespectful (if that makes any sense at all).
 
I disagree. I don't believe that denial and lack of education are ever a good thing. It is much better to have as much information as possible. It allows you to make much better and informed decisions. Ignorance and denial gnerally achieve little other than a false sense of security.

Let's say you're a Captain in the Marine Corps, and say a enlisted Marine comes up to you and says, "I'm gay. There you have it, you are no longer ignorant on this truth." What have the two people solved? What type of decisions can you make, Captain, that you wouldn't have been able to do before being informed of something you were previously ignorant about?
 
You're definitely right on that point, which is what makes the conversation so difficult. On the one hand, if someone is gay they should not be punished for it. On the other hand, how can the military effectively allow gays without it disrupting the overall system? It's honestly one of the most difficult minor problems to solve. Maybe if the military made it so it wasn't a punishable thing, but to not be publicly vocal about it... which would make it a more professional environment. But the problem with that solution is that the military isn't like the same type of professional environment as, say, a corporate job. There's a lot of foul mouthed, closed minded Marines who are also very keen at picking out people who are different than themselves. That's why I always say in the military it's best not to differentiate yourself, because it can harm the mission and there are a lot of people who lack respect, even if they don't mean to be disrespectful (if that makes any sense at all).

The military has gays now, and has had since even before I served. I knew 2 gays when I served, and this was before DADT. There are an estimated 1 million gay veterans in the US(I can look that up if you want, I found the stat looking stuff up for another such thread). Gays are in the military, and somehow, it has not fallen apart. Furthermore, looking at other countries that have allowed gays to serve openly shows that it largely is a non-issue. The leading factor in unit cohesion and morale is still the quality of the chain of command, by a large amount(this comment courtesy of the Rand study on gays in the military, again, can provide links if needed). I know of no country that has allowed gays to serve, and had any loss in effectiveness.
 
The military has gays now, and has had since even before I served. I knew 2 gays when I served, and this was before DADT. There are an estimated 1 million gay veterans in the US(I can look that up if you want, I found the stat looking stuff up for another such thread). Gays are in the military, and somehow, it has not fallen apart. Furthermore, looking at other countries that have allowed gays to serve openly shows that it largely is a non-issue. The leading factor in unit cohesion and morale is still the quality of the chain of command, by a large amount(this comment courtesy of the Rand study on gays in the military, again, can provide links if needed). I know of no country that has allowed gays to serve, and had any loss in effectiveness.

Exactly. :cool: Is it because the system worked, and maybe "don't ask, don't tell" is a good policy?

That's the solution I was sort of referencing, and your response goes to show exactly the point I was trying to make. Don't ask, don't tell is a policy that has worked, so why remove it?
 
Well we have taken pretty good care of you so far..... and its not fear...

Its amazing that left wingers like you can be so opinated on something that does not affect you......I wonder if you would feel so righteous if it affected you......

Funny how I just explained how it affected me, but you are so dense that you couldn't read between the lines. I am a taxpayer. I am helping pay for this military. This military is responsible for my security. I do not feel secure with a military filled with homophobes. I want the best military. One that is filled with professionals who care more about completing the mission than whether the dude next to them is checking out their ass.

Now stop this bull**** of, "Oh it doesn't affect you." I pay for it and it exists to protect me. If it isn't affecting me, then why the **** do we even have a military? It better be affecting me. If it isn't, then it isn't doing its job.
 
Exactly. :cool: Is it because the system worked, and maybe "don't ask, don't tell" is a good policy?

That's the solution I was sort of referencing, and your response goes to show exactly the point I was trying to make. Don't ask, don't tell is a policy that has worked, so why remove it?

Because it puts an unfair burden on gays serving. We should be supportive of people who want to, and are qualified, to serve our country. Being gay and in the military right now is not a nice situation. You can get discharged for something as minor as holding hands with some one of the same sex in a mall(true story, it has happened). Get drunk with the people you work with and say the wrong thing, goodbye career.

Further, there is no evidence that DADT is better policy than allowing gays to serve openly, and evidence of the reverse. I believe gays are still better educated than the average, and some are in pretty important jobs, and can loose that job to triviality. We want people to want to serve their country, we do not want to drive off those who can serve the country admirably and well.
 
Funny how I just explained how it affected me, but you are so dense that you couldn't read between the lines. I am a taxpayer. I am helping pay for this military. This military is responsible for my security. I do not feel secure with a military filled with homophobes. I want the best military. One that is filled with professionals who care more about completing the mission than whether the dude next to them is checking out their ass.

Now stop this bull**** of, "Oh it doesn't affect you." I pay for it and it exists to protect me. If it isn't affecting me, then why the **** do we even have a military? It better be affecting me. If it isn't, then it isn't doing its job.

Another left winger that hates our military....sad...........
 
Another left winger that hates our military....sad...........

I don't hate our military. I just simply want my money's worth from the military. I figure that America deserves a professional military, not one filled with homophobic pansies.
 
Because it puts an unfair burden on gays serving. We should be supportive of people who want to, and are qualified, to serve our country. Being gay and in the military right now is not a nice situation. You can get discharged for something as minor as holding hands with some one of the same sex in a mall(true story, it has happened). Get drunk with the people you work with and say the wrong thing, goodbye career.

Further, there is no evidence that DADT is better policy than allowing gays to serve openly, and evidence of the reverse. I believe gays are still better educated than the average, and some are in pretty important jobs, and can loose that job to triviality. We want people to want to serve their country, we do not want to drive off those who can serve the country admirably and well.

Better educated than the average? What the heck does being gay or straight have to do with ones level of education? That's just silly.
 
Better educated than the average? What the heck does being gay or straight have to do with ones level of education? That's just silly.

I am not 100 % sure if it is true these days any more, but it used to be. The reality is that the stat probably came from educated people being more likely to come out of the closet.
 
I don't hate our military. I just simply want my money's worth from the military. I figure that America deserves a professional military, not one filled with homophobic pansies.

Again I say I wonder if DADT actually affected you would you be so righteous and uppity......Its so easy to take your position on the issue.........

Don't worry we have the best military in the world and they will follow orders given to them.
 
Again I say I wonder if DADT actually affected you would you be so righteous and uppity......Its so easy to take your position on the issue.........

Don't worry we have the best military in the world and they will follow orders given to them.

And as I said, it does affect me because it is my money and my security. If you wish to pay me back the portion of my taxes that went to the defense budget, then I would be more than happy to send you my address and you can send me the check, then I won't have a basis by which to complain.
 
I don't hate our military. I just simply want my money's worth from the military. I figure that America deserves a professional military, not one filled with homophobic pansies.

You are the worst form of life that our military serves their country for. I hope you die a horrible, painfully slow death someday.
 
You are the worst form of life that our military serves their country for. I hope you die a horrible, painfully slow death someday.

Have you ever heard of dry wit?

Geez, get a life kid.
 
Have you ever heard of dry wit?

Geez, get a life kid.

You're right, I was a bit out of line. I just can't stand anyone downplaying the sacrifice members of our military make... at a cost much higher than that of anything a taxpayer could demand of, and for a wage much less than the average American worker.
 
Again I say I wonder if DADT actually affected you would you be so righteous and uppity......Its so easy to take your position on the issue.........

Don't worry we have the best military in the world and they will follow orders given to them.

It's easy to take your position too Navy. Even easier in fact.

We do have the best military in the world, and I have every confidence that something trivial like this will be handled even easier by our military than the militaries of the other countries that have managed to allow gays to serve openly.
 
You're right, I was a bit out of line. I just can't stand anyone downplaying the sacrifice members of our military make... at a cost much higher than that of anything a taxpayer could demand of, and for a wage much less than the average American worker.

My grandfather served in the Navy and my Uncle served in the Navy. I'm praying that one of my brothers decides to serve so that the tradition does not die with my generation.

Please do not think that I have no respect for service just because I'm trying to goad NP by presenting the absurdity of his view as it reflects on the nature of the military. If you wish to be angry at someone, then be angry at him. He honestly feels that our military, the greatest military in the world, is so unprofessional that straight and gay men could not serve openly together. He feels that our men in uniform are more concerned with getting hit on that with completing their missions.

NP has done far more to belittle the military with his views in this thread that my facetiousness ever could.
 
Let's say you're a Captain in the Marine Corps, and say a enlisted Marine comes up to you and says, "I'm gay. There you have it, you are no longer ignorant on this truth." What have the two people solved? What type of decisions can you make, Captain, that you wouldn't have been able to do before being informed of something you were previously ignorant about?
why would the enlisted marine ever need to do that? it's not about that. you are way off base here.
 
You are the worst form of life that our military serves their country for. I hope you die a horrible, painfully slow death someday.

Wow.

You don't even understand what our military fights for.

And you're lucky if you don't get dinged by the mods for this one.
 
I predicted this would come. Answer me this, then why don't they house the women with the straight men?
because people of the opposite sex are not normally comfortable being naked around each other, unless they are involved. easy.

a gay man and a straight man are still the same gender, btw. i don't think too many women would care about being naked around other women, gay or straight. we don't tend to worry about our womanhood.
 
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