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Obama Socialist Health care program....

Goobieman said:
Sure it can. Happens all the time. Look at oil.
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Thanks. Please tell it to everyone who thinks the free market is the magical solution (and not the problem) in health care.
 
misterman said:
Why?

Everyone could afford health care just fine, even catastrophic care, if only they didn't have insurance?

Really?
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See the cosmetic surgery industry for the reason why. They are the prime example of what the rest of health care *could* be if only the insurance companies and govt would get out of it.

And yes, people can make payments on large bills. We do it all the time. In fact, people COULD make payments into a savings account in preparation for those inevitable large bills in the future.
 
VanceMack said:
We will disagree as to the 'socialist' nature of the health care. Ive been places, seen things, experienced things, and done things that more than paid for my benefits as contracted. I also have wrecked knees (5 operations on my left, 2 on my right), can hardly hear in my left ear and have constant dual-tone tinitus in the right so that peoples spoken voices sound like computer aided voices. I have migraine onset 3-5 times a week. My left shoulder has been operated on 3 times. I spent a total of 7 years separated from my family. I paid for every doctors visit...believe me.

And Im sorry...truly...you will NEVER see me post that again. Not trying to come across as self pitying or wanting any pity. I feel blessed. Ive worked with people that will deal with far worse problems. And some that wont deal with anything again...ever. You get the point. Im just saying...when one joins the military NO ONE tells them...dude...you are so lucky...you get FREE housing and FREE healthcare. We get told you will get crappy pay...no overtime...the government will dictate your assignment locations, combat assignments, etc. And if YOU are willing to work for this you will get this in return. And we earn every one of those benefits. Just like the average Joe that goes to work for a company and earns HIS or HER benefit package.

So...

Tricare is the current contract provider.

Horror stories aside, I think the VA gives OUTSTANDING care and service. The misconception though is that the VA provides services to all veterans. thats not the case. The VA provides services only to disabled vets (people that have incurred a lifetime disability while on active duty). No idea as to the percentages...id guess it was around 20-30 percent of ALL servicemen and women.
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I thank you for your service Vance. You deserve the best health care the government has to offer.
 
rivrrat said:
See the cosmetic surgery industry for the reason why. They are the prime example of what the rest of health care *could* be if only the insurance companies and govt would get out of it.
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But cosmetic is elective, as you know. Meaning people don't have to get it if they can't afford it. They can choose not to buy it if the price is too high for them.

Not true with other medical treatments.

And yes, people can make payments on large bills. We do it all the time. In fact, people COULD make payments into a savings account in preparation for those inevitable large bills in the future.
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That just won't cut it for many treatments, especially chronic diseases.
 
rivrrat said:
See the cosmetic surgery industry for the reason why. They are the prime example of what the rest of health care *could* be if only the insurance companies and govt would get out of it.

And yes, people can make payments on large bills. We do it all the time. In fact, people COULD make payments into a savings account in preparation for those inevitable large bills in the future.
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And the other thing to consider is that many of these bills could be settled for an even smaller amount.
 
disneydude said:
Ever saw a corporate insurance company that you didn't love?

Is there anything that corporations should not be able to milk profit from?
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Soluent Green comes to mind . . . wait that would be a government solution or program never mind.
 
misterman said:
But cosmetic is elective, as you know. Meaning people don't have to get it if they can't afford it. They can choose not to buy it if the price is too high for them.

Not true with other medical treatments.
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Everything is elective. No one HAS to have any medical treatment. For instance, I already know that if I ever get cancer I will NOT choose to have chemo. It's not required by any means.

Secondly, one can shop around for the treatments they DO want have, just like with cosmetic surgeries.

That just won't cut it for many treatments, especially chronic diseases.
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Of course it would. Why wouldn't it?
 
I have absolutely no objection to Health care being reformed, it desperately needs reformation.
Were it to be the same Health care for all citizens including the pigs on the hill with their snouts in the public trough and the President and his lot as well, then it would be way more popular.
But these Political Pigs have their own special deal with Health Care, why? I have no idea other than they are Pigs.
 
rivrrat said:
Everything is elective. No one HAS to have any medical treatment. For instance, I already know that if I ever get cancer I will NOT choose to have chemo. It's not required by any means.
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Just stop. You're being ridiculous. You can't just walk in here and declare that all health care is optional just because you would choose not to treat one particular disease. You really embarrass yourself sometimes with this stuff.

Secondly, one can shop around for the treatments they DO want have, just like with cosmetic surgeries.
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Sure, but you can't decide not to do it at all, or wait until later, like with cosmetic stuff.

Of course it would. Why wouldn't it?
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You're being silly again. You know not everyone can afford every treatment for every disease out of pocket, even if prices were lowered significantly. Stop pretending to be dumb, it's pathetic.
 
misterman said:
Just stop. You're being ridiculous. You can't just walk in here and declare that all health care is optional just because you would choose not to treat one particular disease. You really embarrass yourself sometimes with this stuff.



Sure, but you can't decide not to do it at all, or wait until later, like with cosmetic stuff.



You're being silly again. You know not everyone can afford every treatment for every disease out of pocket, even if prices were lowered significantly. Stop pretending to be dumb, it's pathetic.
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I love it when your far left lefties fight one another...:rofl
 
jujuman13 said:
I have absolutely no objection to Health care being reformed, it desperately needs reformation.
Were it to be the same Health care for all citizens including the pigs on the hill with their snouts in the public trough and the President and his lot as well, then it would be way more popular.
But these Political Pigs have their own special deal with Health Care, why? I have no idea other than they are Pigs.
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Your preaching to the choir.....everyone wants health care reform...just not Obama Care..............
 
misterman said:
Just stop. You're being ridiculous. You can't just walk in here and declare that all health care is optional just because you would choose not to treat one particular disease. You really embarrass yourself sometimes with this stuff.
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Yes, I can. Since this is a free country and no one is forced to have any medical treatments at all. All treatments are a choice. How can you see it as anything but a choice?

Sure, but you can't decide not to do it at all, or wait until later, like with cosmetic stuff.
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Yes, you certainly can. Why couldn't you? Sure, there may be some urgency with some treatments, but certainly not all. But then again, we're not talking about emergency care.


You're being silly again. You know not everyone can afford every treatment for every disease out of pocket, even if prices were lowered significantly. Stop pretending to be dumb, it's pathetic.
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How is making payments dumb? :confused:
 
rivrrat said:
Yes, I can. Since this is a free country and no one is forced to have any medical treatments at all. All treatments are a choice. How can you see it as anything but a choice?
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Alright, that's enough. You're being silly.

Yes, you certainly can. Why couldn't you? Sure, there may be some urgency with some treatments, but certainly not all. But then again, we're not talking about emergency care.
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Well, yes, we are. Emergency care, and urgent care, and important care, and everything except plastic surgery that most people consider to be essential, i.e. they may be choices, but they will always choose them.

Never mind. You're not interested in a serious debate.
 
misterman said:
Alright, that's enough. You're being silly.
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How the **** is choosing what treatments you want silly?


Well, yes, we are. Emergency care, and urgent care, and important care, and everything except plastic surgery that most people consider to be essential, i.e. they may be choices, but they will always choose them.

Never mind. You're not interested in a serious debate.
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No, people will not always choose them, and no we are not talking about emergency care.

Some people prefer more natural, holistic approaches to medicine. Some people most certainly would NOT choose to have large amounts of poison shoved into their bodies, and some people would never elect to have someone else's organ implanted into themselves.

And whether or not people would choose treatments is irrelevant to the fact that they would have a choice as to who provided it and at what cost.
 
rivrrat said:
Everyone has access to healthcare.



WTF? Who do you think is going to provide your healthcare if no one is going to profit from it? You really think docs are going to spend 100s of thousands of dollars to get a degree so they can work for free?

Profit and competition for that profit drive costs DOWN. It also gives incentive to develop more technology. If you want to see how well the free market works without govt and insurance involvement, just check out the elective/cosmetic surgery market. Ever increasing technology with ever decreasing costs. Go figure.
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Its amazing how you guys can take something and misconstrue it without even trying.

Nowhere did I say that Doctors should work for free or that research companies should not make a profit.

If you look carefully, what I was saying is that INSURANCE COMPANIES should not be a "for-profit" industry.
How does it make sense for our healthcare industry to allow insurance companies to make profits by deciding who gets services, denying claims and canceling policies when people get sick.
You can have a public-option or even better a single-payer system where the insurance company does not make medical decision based on the best interests of the shareholder and CEO's. Doctors still make a good living. Research companies are still free to compete and thus it still drive competition.

I think you guys have just bought into the right-wing radio talking points that somehow this is all "socialism" and that it is going to cause the collapse of the entire healthcare industry. It isn't. That is what the insurance corporations want you to believe which is why they are pouring millions into the campaign to try to stop the reform. Afterall....they have to protect their shareholders and CEO's.
 
rivrrat said:
How the **** is choosing what treatments you want silly?
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It's not. Suggesting that all treatments are choices, as if treatment for cancer is just as optional as getting a boob job, is silly.

No, people will not always choose them, and no we are not talking about emergency care.
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We're talking about the entire health care system, which includes emergency care.

Some people prefer more natural, holistic approaches to medicine. Some people most certainly would NOT choose to have large amounts of poison shoved into their bodies, and some people would never elect to have someone else's organ implanted into themselves.
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Those people already have those choices now. What does this have to do with cost control?

And whether or not people would choose treatments is irrelevant to the fact that they would have a choice as to who provided it and at what cost.
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Most already have a choice of providers today too. Look, choice is a powerful cost control tool, but don't suggest that it can work exactly like plastic surgery.
 
Navy Pride said:
Your preaching to the choir.....everyone wants health care reform...just not Obama Care..............
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Oh really Navy? Is this why the Republicans are now against the very things that they supported before?

No....the party of No does not want reform. They want to protect the insurance companies who are in their back pocket.

Exactly what reform do you want?
 
Navy Pride said:
Your preaching to the choir.....everyone wants health care reform...just not Obama Care..............
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Then why have Republicans basically gutted every attempt at reform since....ever?
 
Hoplite said:
Then why have Republicans basically gutted every attempt at reform since....ever?
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Because Republicans, unlike Demo-Rats know that once you open the door to government takeover, like this farce of a bill, then you open the floodgates to pure Communism, Komrade.
 
Bassman said:
Because Republicans, unlike Demo-Rats know that once you open the door to government takeover, like this farce of a bill, then you open the floodgates to pure Communism, Komrade.
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No, they know that if you throw goofy words like communism and komrade around, idiots will believe them.

Please get serious. This bill is hardly a "government takeover." You guys knew you'd be saying that before the bill was even introduced.
 
Bassman said:
Because Republicans, unlike Demo-Rats know that once you open the door to government takeover, like this farce of a bill, then you open the floodgates to pure Communism, Komrade.
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I'd be more inclined to accept your hyperbole as an intelligible point if the Republicans had put forth ANYTHING at all, even a plan that didnt involve government intervention.
 
misterman said:
It's not. Suggesting that all treatments are choices, as if treatment for cancer is just as optional as getting a boob job, is silly.
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It is just as optional. How is it not? Everything is a choice.


We're talking about the entire health care system, which includes emergency care.
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No, we aren't. Since you can't make choices about emergency care and we were specifically discussion the choice aspect since that's what you were taking issue with. Prices would decrease for emergency care too, but there wouldn't be any competition in that market.


Those people already have those choices now. What does this have to do with cost control?



Most already have a choice of providers today too. Look, choice is a powerful cost control tool, but don't suggest that it can work exactly like plastic surgery.
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Yes, it would work much like the cosmetic surgery industry if we remove the middlemen who drive costs ever upward. We need to return *the patient* as the ONLY decision maker and the ONLY person who pays.
 
disneydude said:
Oh really Navy? Is this why the Republicans are now against the very things that they supported before?

No....the party of No does not want reform. They want to protect the insurance companies who are in their back pocket.

Exactly what reform do you want?
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The majority of the American people do not want Obama Care.....The polls show that..live with it..........
 
Hoplite said:
I'd be more inclined to accept your hyperbole as an intelligible point if the Republicans had put forth ANYTHING at all, even a plan that didnt involve government intervention.
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They have put up a plan and ideas.......the majority won't let them bring it to the floor...........
 
Hoplite said:
I'd be more inclined to accept your hyperbole as an intelligible point if the Republicans had put forth ANYTHING at all, even a plan that didnt involve government intervention.
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Uhh they already have! Numerous times. It's just that your Leftist slant is clouding your perspective.
 
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